Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Benyon and Lord Russell of Liverpool

Committee stage
Tuesday 6th July 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for his sympathy, though I wish my noble friends would stop sympathising with me. If they are confused, this is my I-am-enjoying-myself face.

I have tried to give some reassurances. I may have satisfied some noble Lords but I clearly have not satisfied him and I will have to do more to do so. I have already said that we will publish more detail before the next stage of the Bill and I am sure that he and others will take great interest in that.

I respectfully disagree with him. I think this is important to people. I hope that when it is up and running—and has tackled a few pieces of complicated government policy and nudged the tiller of those involved in the legislative process perhaps to change things in a way that reflects the impact that policy would have on animals—he will see that this is not a paper tiger, a white elephant or whatever words I am putting into his mouth, but something of value.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

Before I call the next person, I gently remind noble Lords that the practice in Committee and on Report when noble Lords speak after the Minister is, first, to be succinct and, secondly, to deliver their comments in the interrogative form. With that, I call the noble Lord, Lord Bellingham.

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I said, with what I thought was clear reasoning, which has been backed up by others, why these two committees are different. The Animal Welfare Committee advises Defra and is not a statutory body. The animal sentience committee will work across government to reflect whether sentience of animals has been considered in legislation. They have two very different functions, so we cannot subsume the two. I am with my noble friend on his desire, and that of the Chancellor, to make sure that we are living within our means. The Defra that I returned to three weeks or so ago is a very different organisation from the one that I was in during the coalition Government, when we transacted large amounts of policy that was created elsewhere. Now policy is created in this country, in this Parliament, by a Government who are elected, so it is a very different place, which I hope will be reflected in the spending review.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I would call the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, but we have a problem with her—but a person put his name forward late, so I call the noble Earl, Lord Caithness.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I listened with care to what my noble friend said, and I apologise to him if I did not pick up the comment he made, but did he make any comment about the LSE report? It is so relevant to the work of this committee. Has he received it and are we going to see it? What is its relevance to the Bill?

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I think we are coming to that in a later group of amendments. It has been completed but not peer reviewed and I have not seen it, but it will be available to noble Lords before the next stage of the Bill.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

We will make one more attempt to call the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. No, it is not working. I call the mover of the amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean.

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lady McIntosh for her amendments concerning term-lengths for members of the animal sentience committee. I can confirm that the Government are committed to adhere to the Governance Code for Public Appointments. The code contains a number of rules designed to ensure public confidence in the accountability and integrity of organisations such as the committee. These include mandating open recruitment, public declaration of members’ interests and the strong presumption that no individual should serve more than two terms, or serve in any one post for more than 10 years.

I take this opportunity to address a point made by my noble friend Lord Forsyth on an earlier group. I entirely agree that having a conflict of interest is not a precursor to not being allowed to be on the committee. We want people who are actively involved in the issues we are talking about. That may mean that they have a business or other related issue in their lives that could be seen as a conflict. As long as there is transparency, and those matters are declared, that is a good thing. The more of the right sort of conflict, the better. That may be misinterpreted, but I think noble Lords know what I mean.

We will boost accountability by ensuring that any recruitment to the committee is conducted openly and fairly by advertising campaigns and, as the governance code requires, the Secretary of State will make the appointment based on merit. A register of members’ interests be published alongside the committee’s minutes and reports. Ministers will be accountable to Parliament through the usual channels for how the committee is appointed and run. We decided not to put detailed rules in the Bill on the appointment of the committee’s members, as we believe the governance code already provides that robust framework. Setting these details out in legislation—as I have said before, and I apologise for repeating it—may unduly constrain an approach to recruitment that best fits with the work of the committee and the normal public appointment rules.

As I previously highlighted, setting rigid terms for appointments may have unintended consequences. If, for example, a member’s term ended in the middle of producing a report to which they were critical, it would cause disruption to the committee's work. Additionally, we should allow some room for manoeuvre in exceptional circumstances. The ongoing pandemic, for example, has disrupted recruitment across government. Being able to just nudge people on for a year has been much appreciated in the work they are doing. I hope our commitment to accountability and good governance is clear and that the noble Baroness will be content to withdraw her amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I have received two requests to speak after the Minister: from the noble Lord, Lord Marland, and the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Marland.

[Lord Marland (Con) [V]]

I am very grateful to noble Lords for letting me speak again, as I want to press the Minister further. Having taken on board this very strong opinion from all parties that the committee should come under scrutiny and there should be a much more detailed plan as to its make-up and how it will operate, what is the timetable for the Minister and his department to explain this to us to allay our fears? We would all love to help him, of course; he might not want that, but we would all love to help him structure this properly. Has he thought of taking time out to discuss it with us as a group to make sure that it is done properly?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

An overused phrase in corporate-speak and in government is that my door is always open, but in this case it is true. I am always open to suggestions. If we can be more explicit on Report, I hope that will satisfy my noble friend and others. In saying that, I hope that it is not an invitation to be too prescriptive, because I am determined that the committee will evolve over the years to reflect issues that arise and emerging scientific evidence. Therefore, too much constraint will not receive a favourable response from me—but constructive ideas as to the sort of people who could be on the committee are definitely what we want to hear.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I call the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu.

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to noble Lords and to my noble friend Lord Mancroft for his Amendments 12 and 43. There is much I could say that would repeat what I said on earlier groups about the make-up of the committee, but I am grateful to him and others for highlighting an important consideration for Ministers as and when the Bill reaches the statute book. As my noble friend said, it is not just about who we put on the committee but about who we do not. I am clear that we want people who will take a collegiate view and who are not there to represent some narrow sectoral or even extreme point of view. The committee will look at issues such as the eating of meat and how we get meat from field to fork. The process of rearing stock and taking it to slaughter is something that we want to make sure we get absolutely right. If somebody’s opinion about that is clouded by an extreme view that the whole process is wrong, it will not be an effectively functioning committee with that individual in place, so I totally hear what has been said.

I could repeat all I said before about not wanting to constrain things by putting details about what sort of people we want to do this in the Bill. We want this to be an expert committee of professionals who really good people will want to work with. If they feel that the committee is being hijacked by extremists or, indeed, one sectoral view, it will not be working by the terms in which, I hope, it will be put on the statute book by Parliament.

I have already spoken about the very important points made about how the committee will work with other organisations, not least the Animal Welfare Committee. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, made an important point. There will undoubtedly be scope for a productive and mutually beneficial relationship between the two organisations and the broad principles of this will be outlined in the animal sentience committee’s terms of reference.

Indeed, the animal sentience committee may wish to draw on the expertise of other bodies and experts where it sees fit. The Bill places no limits on this. It will then be for the committees to decide where and how it would be most productive to work together within that framework. This might not always result in outputs so reassuringly concrete as the report on reports envisaged by this amendment. The freedom to co-operate and to inform each other’s thinking, where useful, is there.

I could go into more detail. We may tease out aspects of the points raised by noble Lords in subsequent questions, but I hope my noble friend will be content to withdraw his amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I have received one request to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Hannan of Kingsclere.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, the debate on this amendment shows the fundamental problem of what is involved when an accountable Government pass some of their responsibilities to an appointed committee. The debate on this amendment, as on the previous one, has resembled nothing so much as one of those US courtroom dramas where people argue about who should serve on a jury because they assume that the opinions will be dictated by the position of the selected juror. If we are picking people or excluding them on the basis of their professional or political affiliations, we are effectively substituting what should be a democratic decision and passing it over to people. The only difference between them and parliamentarians is that they are not really accountable to anyone.

My noble friend the Minister said, in his answer to the amendment about Members of this House serving on the committee, that politicians are not known for their strict impartiality. That is perfectly true, of course, but the idea that anyone else is strictly impartial strikes me as rather questionable. We all have our assumptions and our prejudices—indeed, experts more than anyone, if by “expert” we mean anyone who has spent their entire career in one particular field. They are the last people to be relied on to take a view in the round.

It is fine to have advice on a narrow point, but I think the concern of this Committee is that we will stray into policy-making. That is why I want to reiterate the question asked by my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising about a sunset clause. I think that would reassure a lot of Members of this Committee. My noble friend the Minister did not answer it. Perhaps he thought it was offered in a frivolous spirit, but it was a policy of the coalition Government in which my noble friend served very ably as a Minister that there should be sunset clauses when new regulation is proposed. Would that not be a guarantee—a backstop, if you will—that if this committee strayed beyond giving narrow, technical advice into setting policy, there would be a way of doing something about it?

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering for the opportunity to explain the approach behind Clause 1. Before I do that, perhaps I should clarify once and for all that there is no rural-proofing committee. There never has been. There is something called the rural affairs board, which is chaired by a non-executive director of Defra and brings together senior officials, and I am the Minister responsible for rural affairs. Rural-proofing does not need a Bill; it does not need legislation. It just needs a will across government to do it.

My noble friend asked why this is being prioritised before rural-proofing. It is not. Rural-proofing is something we have yet to perfect. We have yet to get to where we want to be but, with all the vigour I can put behind my voice, I suggest that there is not a competition between rural-proofing and animal welfare. Both are important and both can be taken forward in different ways. This is a piece of legislation; rural-proofing does not need one. She asked about the trade and agriculture committee. I am afraid I do not know the details of that. It is not an area for which I have direct responsibility, but I am sure we can find out.

My noble friend Lord Hamilton asked why there are two committees. We have worked through this one quite thoroughly and I cannot say better than the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, on that.

My noble friend Lord Moylan looks down the telescope one way and sees all these bodies roaming around Whitehall interfering with the nice tidy world of executive power. There is another direction in which to look. We get better legislation if we employ experts in a modest and proportionate way to look at things in an expert way. I suggest that that is perhaps the perspective from the end I am looking down. We may never have a meeting of minds on this, but I can keep trying.

Clause 1 requires the Government to create and maintain the animal sentience committee. As has been discussed, the committee will hold the Government to account on animal welfare, creating a proportionate accountability mechanism to support the Bill’s legal recognition of animal sentience. I understand that some noble Lords have questioned the need for the committee or have suggested that it may be constituted without legislation as part of the Animal Welfare Committee. I will try to address this.

Our approach creates a dedicated committee whose role is to support Parliament’s scrutiny of the policy decision-making process. While the committee is not there to impose decisions on Ministers, it will perform a valuable role in encouraging us to make sure that we have properly considered the effects of policy on the welfare of animals. Creating the committee and placing it on a statutory footing is the best way of ensuring that the Bill’s recognition of sentience is given meaningful but proportionate effect.

The committee must act within the legal parameters the Bill sets. At the same time, we consider the obligation on Ministers to respond to the committee’s reports fundamental to the transparency and meaningful scrutiny of government policy-making. Ministers do not have to accept the committee’s findings and recommendations, but they have an obligation under the Bill to respond to them promptly and openly. We feel that this approach strikes an appropriate balance. We would struggle to give the committee sufficient traction if it lacked a statutory basis. We want the animal sentience committee and the Animal Welfare Committee to have a constructive relationship, but it is not quite as simple as saying that we could hand over the ASC’s responsibilities to the AWC with no legal powers to back them up.

It is important to remember that the two committees have distinct roles. The Animal Welfare Committee exists to provide advice to Defra and the devolved Administrations, whereas we are establishing the animal sentience committee to scrutinise policy decision-making across the whole of government. Any relationship between the two would need to support these two distinct functions. I therefore ask my noble friend not to oppose the clause standing part.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I have received two requests to speak after the Minister, from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I call the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I was just reflecting as I listened to the Minister. He said how important it was to have expert advice. I thought the whole raison d’être of this House was that it provided expert advice on legislation to government. Therefore, my question to the Minister is, having sat through nearly five hours of people questioning the efficacy of Clause 1 and giving him advice to come back with some further thoughts on the composition of the committee, and having heard all of that, will he undertake to bring government amendments back on Report to deal with the issues of composition which have been raised? I have to say to him: if he does not do that, there is no way—we are not able to vote that Clause 1 stand part—but there is no way that I would support it as it stands because it is an empty shell. Without repeating all the arguments that have been put by the Committee, it will lead the Government into great difficulties.

I listened very carefully to what he said. Does he really believe that it is necessary to have a statutory committee to achieve his declared purpose? I heard what he read out, but, putting it unkindly, what he was saying was: we are using legislation as a sort of poster board on which to say how much we care about animal sentience. It is perfectly within his powers as a Minister to set up a committee and give an undertaking that the committee’s reports will be debated within three months in Parliament. It would be great if Ministers did that for existing Select Committees of this House. I have one outstanding for nearly two years for the Economic Affairs Committee.

It feels as if this is just a bit of window dressing, a bit of virtue-signalling, which is actually going to create great problems for the Government. My question is: will the Minister now give us an undertaking that he will come back with amendments to Clause 1 which give it some substance, given the very strong views which have been expressed by everyone? Without exception everyone has said that this clause is inadequate because it does not define the composition of the committee.

The Minister said, quite rightly, that he needs flexibility, but when I was Secretary of State for Scotland, I had to make a huge number of appointments to committees. The legislation often provided, in more general terms, the composition of the committee. It might say that you must have somebody with technical expertise in this area or that, and that the balance of the committee should be X, Y and Z. The people giving him advice in his department are perfectly capable of coming up with a form of wording that would meet the requirements expressed today by the Committee and allow for flexibility.

As to the point about what would happen if someone left the committee after three years, again, in the commercial world, people are expected to do succession planning and look at the composition of the committees. One would expect Ministers to do the same. So, can we have an undertaking that the Minister will bring forward amendments on Report to save us the trouble of having to do so and having yet another extended period of debate? I do not think the clause as it stands will wash.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

Does the Minister wish to respond?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness has made her point very clearly, and it is on the record.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

Just to be clear, it is not within my powers to strike anything from Hansard. I call the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.