Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Lord Beith and Gordon Marsden

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

I wish to speak principally to new clause 7, but, in passing, I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson), particularly on seaside and coastal towns. I have received a letter on precisely those issues from my holiday village, Martin Mere, in Blackpool, which has caravan sites as well as wonderful beaches.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) eloquently described the broader issue. I do not want to dwell on the architectural glories of churches, but in my constituency, churches and places of worship have done immensely valuable work in adapting their buildings for community and voluntary sector use. That is why I was mystified when I raised the issue in Prime Minister’s questions today. He had a bizarre brief on swimming pools in Tudor houses. We do not have many swimming pools in Tudor houses in Blackpool, but we have many of the churches and places of worship to which I referred. Incidentally, although it will suffer massively from this proposal, this is not just an issue for the Church of England. Many of the reformed and independent Churches, the Roman Catholic Church and other denominations and religions also do immensely valuable work.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I declare an interest as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust, which is restoring a Catholic church in Blackpool. Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that when alterations were taxed differently from repairs there was a perverse incentive to alter rather than merely repair, but that the Government could help a lot if they were prepared to put more money into the fund that churches can use to bypass VAT?

[Mr Marsden]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention and I pay tribute to his work as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust. I can only say, however, that I know of no examples in Blackpool where such a process has been the driver. The driver in Blackpool has been to make churches, such as the town centre church, St John’s church, and Holy Trinity church in South Shore, accessible for community meetings and so on. As has rightly been said, this is the big society in action.

Blackpool also has a Salvation Army citadel. It does an immense amount of good work, not least with the homeless community. If it wants to make alterations to its buildings to expand the outreach services and community use it currently offers, it will, as a result of this proposal, face a whopping 20% extra in VAT on any building or alteration work. That is a recipe for stopping all that good work nationwide. As I indicated to the Prime Minister earlier, that is shooting the big society in the foot. It is absolute nonsense.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter referred to the listed places of worship grant scheme. I deplore Ministers’ attempt to cloud the issue by saying that they have thrown £5 million into the pot for the grant scheme. Treasury Ministers and the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport are perfectly aware that that will not address the issue, in any shape or form, of the losses that will be made under this process.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Debate between Lord Beith and Gordon Marsden

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Marsden]

I am sorry, but I will not.

The great military and diplomatic historian Garrett Mattingly said that to do justice to the dead as well as to the living is what matters. That is one of the issues at the heart of tonight's debate. I urge Members on both sides of the House to take those points on board, consider what the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole has said and support his amendment.

[Sir Alan Beith]

The Justice Committee has on two occasions—in its present and previous form—published reports dedicated not to the creation of an office or a title, but to fundamental reform of a system in which there are too many differences across the country. There are too many differences in the ability and efficiency of coroners, in how they are resourced and how their offices are provided for, and too little support and sympathy is shown for bereaved relatives, whether military or those who belong to any of the other categories that have been mentioned today. The important question is not the title, but whether the reforms are actually carried out.

The Minister left me a little confused on whether some High Court judge will ultimately have the words “chief coroner” added to his title. My primary objective is to see reform of the system, rather than someone acquire the title, merit though I see in there being someone who could exercise some professional leadership, just as the head of ACPO exercises professional leadership among police officers and the heads of other organisations.