Lindisfarne Highly Protected Marine Conservation Area

Lord Beith Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Beith]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the potential impact of the proposed creation of the Lindisfarne Highly Protected Marine Conservation Area on the fishing community and the local economy of Holy Island.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have consulted on a proposal to designate five pilot highly protected marine areas. The Secretary of State announced this morning the Government’s decision to designate three of these sites. The Lindisfarne site will not be taken forward. A Written Ministerial Statement has been deposited in both Houses.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

Very timely, my Lords. Fishing and wildlife have coexisted around Holy Island since the days of St Aidan in the 7th century. The proposed Lindisfarne highly protected marine area would have destroyed the small-scale, well-regulated lobster fishery, which provides essential employment for island families. Does the Minister, who has taken a close interest in the matter himself, which I welcome, agree that the welcome decision not to go ahead with the plan helps Holy Island to remain a working community as well as a wonderful place of pilgrimage and tourism?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Lord’s knowledge of this area is, of course, understood, and he is absolutely right. This was a meaningful consultation that sought the views of people from all sectors that affected the area, and it was deemed not right to take it forward as a highly protected marine area. It is, of course, a marine conservation zone. It has at least 850 species and a very valuable benthic population of seagrass in certain parts, and it is an extraordinary neighbourhood for tourists as well as people who exploit it in a sustainable way. We are now progressing designating other sites and making sure that we continue to listen to local people as well as conservationists, and that we get this right.

Agricultural Transition Plan

Lord Beith Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, first, for reminding me that I did not answer the points made by the noble Baronesses on the Front Benches about tenants. I absolutely agree that we want to make these schemes as accessible as possible to tenant farmers. They are a fundamental part of the tenure of land that we have, from owner-occupiers, statutory tenants under the Agricultural Holdings Act, farm business tenancies, grazing rights and grazing on commons; there is an array of them. I agree with my noble friend that the legislation is a bit out of date. We have an organisation called TRIG, which is bringing together people across farming businesses to try to find a way of reform, although there is not agreement on that. My noble friend Lady Rock’s report has brought forward some measures that have already found their way into the Environmental Land Management Scheme and into Countryside Stewardship. We want to make these as accessible as possible for tenants, and I hope that the changes we made will please them.

I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s points on exports. I am pleased to see that we have recently agreed exports of pig meat to countries such as Mexico. This fills the gap created when markets were cut off for China. Our attachés, embassies and high commissions abroad will be working hard to secure better export opportunities for high-quality British food, so I hope that we will see a better future for that.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, the north-east fishing industry, despite the great popularity of its crab and lobster products in mainland Europe, has faced a series of challenges. The one the Minister described today has been the most devastating. Alongside that, the industry has had to find ways of getting products to market in Europe, which has proved far more complicated as it has to be done within 24 hours in most cases. In the case of Holy Island, new problems, of which he is aware, may be posed by marine protection zones. Is there a focus in his department on ensuring that we continue to have a north-east of England fishing industry, given all these difficulties?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Absolutely. Regarding Holy Island, as he knows, we are holding a consultation, which is causing great concern. I have had letters from a variety of people, including the Archbishop of York, on this matter. I know it is causing serious stress to individuals, and we want to resolve it as soon as possible; that is the point of a meaningful consultation. The people managing that fishery need to know that we are listening to them. We will make an announcement very soon, which I hope will set their minds at rest.

The noble Lord and my noble friend also asked about support for that fishing industry. We want to see more biomass in the sea, so fishermen in the north-east of England feel that they can have a sustainable stock of fish to exploit in years to come. Everything we are doing is about driving towards sustainability. The greatest friends of protected marine areas should be fishermen. As we saw in a report I wrote for the Government before I took this position, in other parts of the world the greatest supporters of marine protection are fishermen. Outside those areas, they see biomass moving into an area, which they can then exploit. We want to see a good future for fishermen all around our coasts.

Fisheries Bill [HL]

Lord Beith Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments & Ping Pong (Hansard) & Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords & Ping Pong (Minutes of Proceedings): House of Lords
Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Beith]

Leave out “agree” and insert “disagree”.

[Lord Beith (LD) [V]]

I am grateful to the Minister for his careful explanation, and for dwelling on some of the constitutional aspects of the matter, but I am still moving Motion 22A, in my name, that this House disagrees with Commons Amendment 22, introducing, as it does, a power for Ministers to apply sections of the Fisheries Bill to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man without their consent.

It came as an unpleasant surprise when the new clause appeared at such a late stage in the Bill’s progress. As the Minister indicated, my interest in such matters dates from work I did on the 2010 and 2014 Justice Committee reports on the Crown dependencies, which analysed, assessed and promoted the modern relationship between the UK and the dependencies. In every relevant respect, that 2010 report was accepted by the Government of the day.

The report set out a relationship that respected the legislative autonomy of the dependencies, which would not normally be the subject of Westminster legislation unless they wished to be. Along with that went a policy of increasing entrustment, enabling the dependencies to develop their relations with the wider world, including, in the case of the Channel Islands, their very close neighbours in France.

The UK, of which the Crown dependencies are not, and never have been, a part, remains responsible for international treaty obligations of the dependencies. The framework agreements were put in to ensure that this could be done effectively, while respecting their autonomy. I shall quote from the Guernsey agreement of 2006, but the other dependencies have similar agreements. Paragraph 13 of that agreement says:

“Guernsey has an international identity which is different from that of the UK.”


The agreement continues:

“The UK recognises that Guernsey is a long-standing, small democracy and supports the principle of Guernsey further developing its international identity … The UK has a role to play in assisting the development of Guernsey’s international identity. The role is one of support not interference … Guernsey and the UK commit themselves to open, effective and meaningful dialogue with each other on any issue that may come to affect the constitutional relationship … International identity is developed effectively through meeting international standards and obligations which are important components of Guernsey’s international identity … The UK will clearly identify its priorities for delivery of its international obligations and agreements so that these are understood, and can be taken into account by Guernsey developing its own position.”


A key question for the Minister is: do the present UK Government stand by that agreement? The clause suggests otherwise. It represents a threat to impose Westminster legislation when there are adequate means available to resolve differences when they arise. The best way is bilateral discussion, in which the UK is clearly in a strong position, given its size and resources. In any case, the islands themselves have a strong commitment to maintain their British identity, and their international reputation for good government and good faith.

Alongside all that is the requirement that island legislation requires Royal Assent, and therefore is considered at Privy Council level in the UK. That is a mechanism by which the UK seeks to make sure that international obligations are satisfied. The processes have worked, and they have resolved issues. I am not aware of any significant outstanding issues that the process has not coped with.

However, the clause says, “We’re not sure we can trust you, and if we think it’s necessary we will, without your consent, legislate from Westminster to override your legislative jurisdiction.” The Government may say—indeed, they have said, and they are saying it again today—that this is extremely unlikely, but the possibility has already been noticed by the French media, and that could undermine the Bailiwick of Guernsey, or Jersey, in their discussions with their close neighbours.

The Minister quoted the Constitution Committee. Its report, which is critical of the clause, states:

“We are not persuaded of the necessity of Commons amendment 22.”


The Minister’s letter said that the Government

“do not currently have any specific concerns which we would envisage using”,

the clause to address. The committee then stated in response that the Government,

“should seek powers only when they are necessary and their use is anticipated.”

The Minister also quoted that. The Committee in paragraph 9 states that the Commons amendment,

“undermines the domestic autonomy of the Crown Dependencies and is contrary to long-standing practice.”

We are left with a clause that the Government say they have no plans to use but hold as a threat. That reverses the trend towards greater recognition of the dependencies’ autonomy and entrustment in their international relations.

My final questions are these: is there intended to be a change of constitutional policy towards the Crown dependencies such that a power to extend Westminster legislation without consent will become a feature in more UK legislation and, if so, why are the Government not more interested in a wider discussion of such a fundamental change in policy and the constitutional relationship? Or have they stumbled into an unnecessary row because someone somewhere in Defra, who has always wanted the department to have that power, got it out of the drawer and into this legislation? I have a strong suspicion the latter might be the reason.

I note the Government’s proposal for a mechanism for discussions in the context of marine management with the dependencies. Welcome though they might be, they do not make any difference to the fundamental constitutional issue. The Government surely have enough problems to tackle without picking an unnecessary quarrel with our loyal friends in the Channel Islands. I know that the Minister who is responding today, the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, is not one for picking quarrels. He should see what he can do to bring this quarrel to an end.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

The following Members in the Chamber have indicated that they wish to speak: the noble Lords, Lord Anderson of Ipswich and Lord Faulkner of Worcester, the noble Baroness, Lady Couttie, and the noble Lords, Lord Northbrook and Lord Pannick. I will call them in order.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the instincts of the noble Lord exactly. On international obligations, the whole point about the last resort is that, if international obligations were not being adhered to in a certain part of the British family, it would be the responsibility of the UK Government to act accordingly. All I say in answering the noble Lord— positively, I hope—is that I believe that everyone I have spoken to who would have responsibility would work collaboratively and exhaust every option available. It would be triggered only if all those options were exhausted in order to adhere to international obligations. This is my point.

Also—if I am allowed to say this and if this is the last moment—I respect immensely all noble Lords who have participated in the consideration of this Fisheries Bill. This is indeed my first experience of us dealing with a Bill as the first House; I can tell your Lordships that, when I saw the number of amendments coming back from the other place, I was not the only one whose heart may have sunk a bit. I think it shows that, when we are the second House and have other points to make, the other place sends us messages back as well. I place on record my deep appreciation of the Front Bench opposite and the Back Benches on all sides of the House for the collaborative way in which I believe we have worked, seeking to do the best we can for the marine environment and the future of our fisheries communities—which, after all, bring us such nutritious food, often in very difficult circumstances. I place my thanks on record and have no doubt that we will have further work to do.

[Lord Beith (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the care that he has taken over this but I am afraid that he was not as persuasive as he sometimes is—certainly for me. I want to pick up on a couple of his points before thanking the noble Lords who took part in this debate.

On international obligations, the dependencies understand and carry out their international obligations. They have the legislative and policing capacity to do so, and the UK Government would not face any problem in persuading them to take the necessary and appropriate action where it was clear that it was needed. There are many areas in which international obligations exist and the Government do not appear, as far as I can see, to be running around creating powers like this in areas in which conditions could arise where there are international obligations to be satisfied. The existing system works and does not need to be changed.

Secondly, on the legal situation in both Guernsey and Jersey, which was so helpfully raised by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, the note that was passed to the Minister was not really about that—I do not blame him for that—but about the legal situation on including a permitted extension clause in the Bill in the first place. It does not really address what would happen under Guernsey or Jersey law if the Government attempted to use the power. The amount of uncertainty that exists in that area is something that the Government will have to take into account.

The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the points he raised illustrated the high level of knowledge and experience that Peers brought to the debate. I mention the noble Lords, Lord Anderson, Lord Faulkner, Lord Northbrook and Lord Pannick, the noble Baronesses, Lady Couttie and Lady Jones, and my noble friend Lady Bakewell, who suggested that the Minister should withdraw the clause, which could be achieved by accepting my amendment, in order to discuss the matter further with Guernsey and Jersey.

The Minister has not accepted good advice but, at such a late stage, in the face of Commons acceptance of the clause, our options are limited, and I do not think a vote would be helpful. I can only hope that the very severe response from experienced and knowledgeable Members of this House has made clear to Ministers that on no account should they make use of these powers without having obtained the consent of the Crown dependencies to do so. They would face a very serious reaction if they were to attempt such a course without consent. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion 22A withdrawn.

Upland Farming

Lord Beith Excerpts

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cunningham of Felling (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure we can hear from the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, but it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

[Lord Beith]

My Lords, as several Peers have acknowledged, upland farmers make a massive contribution to the care of our hill areas. However, the character and community of those areas will depend on upland farmers being more than merely park-keepers. Does the Minister recognise that if Brexit leads to very high tariffs for lamb exports to Europe, and massive imports from new trade deals with New Zealand, it could spell the end of hill livestock farming? That is really dangerous for the hill areas.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is precisely why I mentioned food in my Answer. Upland farmers provide excellent food for the nation and for abroad. We clearly want that to continue. We want a trade deal. I am sure that all your Lordships wish us to secure a deal for the nation, but the situation is particularly acute for the upland farmers. I referred to animal health and productivity in my reply. We want to work with the farmers to ensure we conquer many of the diseases that are a travail for them, such as sheep scab. There are all sorts of areas of work that industry, the Government and farmers can work together on.

Common Agricultural Policy and Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Beith Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, far from going round the houses, the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, has done us a service by going through the instruments so thoroughly and raising some really important questions—the Minister will have quite a lot to answer. I will say something about these instruments, but I do not want to forget to thank the Minister and his officials for the extremely helpful briefing they gave to opposition parties.

There are five instruments, and their titles are so confusingly similar that the only way to deal with them is the way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, did—as first, second, third, fourth and fifth, which is the order in which they appear on the Order Paper. They deal with very important matters related to farming and rural communities, particularly funding issues. They are interrelated, which is why I think it was sensible to take them together.

The instruments are also interrelated with the Agriculture Bill—the elephant that is not in the room, because we do not have it yet—which interacts with these instruments in a number of respects. The Agriculture Bill gives huge and unacceptably wide order-making powers to Ministers. Some of those duplicate some of the powers exercised in these statutory instruments, so it is quite difficult to view them separately. If the Agriculture Bill ever becomes an Act, it will come into force probably in the middle of a period in which these instruments are in force, or while we are still waiting for the instruments to come into force at the end of an implementation period.

We accept that these instruments are a necessary means of ensuring that we have continuity in what would otherwise be an even more difficult situation for the farming community. They are no-deal instruments primarily; the Minister explained that they will still be necessary even if there is an agreement, but that would not be until the end of the implementation period. They would therefore lie dormant during an implementation period, and that would have to be achieved in the withdrawal agreement Bill, which would be necessary in those circumstances. Of course, we do not know when exit day will be—whether it will be next Friday, 30 June, or some other date—or indeed if it will be. By the time we get to it, these instruments will need to be amended because things will have changed, either during the delay, or during the implementation period, or both. It is hard to imagine that the form in which these instruments are now will serve all purposes in perhaps 20 months’ time, as would be the case after an implementation period.

What on earth are farmers supposed to make of all this? It is bad enough when your work is at the mercy of the weather and fluctuating market prices; but, frankly, it has been easier to forecast the weather—and even market prices—than the Government’s management of the Brexit exercise. That adds another huge dimension of uncertainty and these five instruments would at least provide continuity in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

There are a few issues I want to pick up. The Minister mentioned an intriguing point on the first instrument: the red meat levy paid on imported animals slaughtered within two or three months of import would be extended from EU states to the rest of the world. That sounds like a policy change, and a policy change ought to be dealt with differently, or at least drawn to our attention. Its significance diminishes, however, when you discover that—in the words of the Explanatory Memorandum—the amount of the levy currently collected is “probably nil”. That is a rather interesting phrase to use; perhaps the Minister can explain why it is only “probably nil”, as though nobody knows whether it has been collected at all.

The second and fourth instruments puzzled me—and officials when I asked them—for a different reason. Unlike all the others, they do not necessarily come into force on exit day, whereas most EU exit regulations do come into force on exit day—whenever that turns out to be. If the Minister chooses not to lay either the second or the fourth instrument until some later date, they will not come into force until the day after that. Why the difference, and do the Government envisage the orders not being brought into force at the same time as the others?

The third and fourth instruments abandon the mechanism known as the EU crisis reserve. That relies on deductions from the direct payment pot to create a central reserve for times of crisis in EU agriculture. It is another mechanism that has never been used; farmers have received reimbursement for the deductions in the funding scheme. It clearly makes little sense in a UK-only context—I suppose one could have a scheme for the four jurisdictions within the UK, but it makes a great deal less sense. We have to refer to a different statutory instrument, the next one in the group, to see the accountability mechanism for dealing with it.

It is also in the third instrument that we find that euros will remain the currency on which the whole system of agricultural support is calculated and accounted for. However, I understand that provision may be included in the Agriculture Bill for a switch to sterling. We need to clarify that; I was reassured when I received briefing from officials that neither farmers nor the taxpayer would in the long run be placed in a very different position by currency fluctuations because support is decided at a fixed point in the year. However, it would be helpful to have clarified the Government’s intention in relation to a later switch to sterling.

The fifth order is essential to continue the exemption of various agricultural and fisheries projects and funding streams from EU state aid rules. To the extent that state aid rules continue to have effect post exit, such an exemption is necessary. It of course begs the question of how many state aid rules we will have post exit. The Minister could perhaps clarify; there will be rules that extend because they are in the withdrawal agreement—there may be things which we decide to continue and do not remove because we want to restrain undesirable interference with the market by various forms of state aid. It left me slightly puzzled as to the extent of its impact.

The decision about the future of state aid rules is one of the hundreds of policy decisions which we will have to come to later if exit goes ahead. The battle will then be between those who thought that Brexit meant a bonfire of rules and those who see that many issues in the rules have been developed while we have been in Europe and are valuable to us and we do not want to lose them. That again creates more uncertainty for farmers, because they have been told by the ardent Brexiteers, “Oh, we’ll get rid of all those EU rules; you don’t have to worry about them”, whereas in practice, as the Government have indicated on many issues already, a lot of the things we observe in Europe are things that we believe to be right, and that we advocate and intend to do anyway.

We have had a foretaste of the problems and uncertainties with the publication of the tariff regime only two weeks before it was planned to come into force. While the sheep sector, which is so valuable in areas such as that which I come from, has retained its tariff protection but still faces the problem of potentially heavy tariffs on its exports, eggs, cereals, fruit and vegetables will have no tariff protection. Farmers Weekly called it policy devised on the hoof by a Government struggling to cling on to power.

My last point was raised the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, but it looks forward. Can the government machinery cope with the complex transfer of functions provided by these orders? The noble Baroness raised the question in the context of the Rural Payments Agency and delays to payments. The RPA and Natural England have 14,000 historic environmental stewardship payments outstanding. The RPA says that it is concentrating not on the 2018 so-called advance payments—we can hardly call them advance in 2019—but on the 2017 final payments. Its target is still only to complete 95% of them by July. Tenant farmers with rents to pay need those payments to be made in a timely fashion, and they have a big impact in rural communities on suppliers of farm machinery and materials for agriculture. The system cannot cope at present, so a series of quite complex changes gives rise to worry as to how the system will cope.

The complexity of this is illustrated by the Minister’s admission that there is a small error in one of the sets of regulations before us today. That can obviously be corrected, but one has to bear in mind that this extremely complex process is taking place in an industry that faces a great deal of uncertainty and many other complexities. It is pretty worrying.

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I want to say just a couple of things. I am married to a farmer and in the evenings I have to try to sort out some of the paperwork, mapping, basic payment systems—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I can understand that. In signing the EM, Ministers have to declare that we have had due regard to the need to eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and any other conduct prohibited under the Equality Act 2010.

I turn to the point raised by the noble Lords, Lord Beith and Lord Grantchester, about the red meat levy exemption. In continuing the existing exemption for imports from the EU, we were advised that we need to be in line with WTO rules, as I advised. I also advise that we expect this change to be minimal or nil. We believe that very few animals are imported into the UK live for slaughter. On average over the last five years, fewer than 500 cattle, sheep or bovines have been imported each year from beyond the EU into the UK. Their average values have been relatively high and our understanding is that they are imported mainly for breeding purposes. We believe that few, if any, are slaughtered in England soon after being imported—hence our belief that the impact of this change would be minimal.

The noble Lord, Lord Beith, raised a question relating to three of the instruments and concerning the legal wording coming into force on a date later than exit day. He asked why that is the case. The legislation is worded as it is because it was not clear whether the instruments would be debated, approved and made before exit day. The wording providing for the instruments to come into force on the latter of exit day or the day after making was a prudent contingency to account for this eventuality and to ensure that we did not purport to bring into force an instrument before it was made. I might need to think about that myself, but I wanted to put the position on the record. However, it is an interesting construct.

[Lord Beith]

It is indeed—that had not occurred to me. Do we conclude from this that the Government have no intention of doing anything other than bringing all five instruments into force on exit day?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Yes; I always have a safety valve. Picking up my noble friend’s point, it is why we thought that these SIs hung together as a package. From all the details that noble Lords have raised, I am relieved that we put them together because they are intricately connected.

The noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Beith, raised the question of funding a crisis without a crisis reserve. The 2018 crisis reserve payments are covered by Her Majesty’s Government’s funding guarantee, so farmers will receive reimbursement for the 2018 crisis reserve payments. After exit, clearly UK participation in the EU crisis reserve will become unworkable. Making the EU’s concept of the crisis reserve operable in the UK would mean taking the UK’s contributory share of the existing reserve—about £39 million—as the basis for a UK-only reserve. This would be likely to be of limited value in response to a crisis, especially when divided between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Removing the crisis reserve could also mean that more money could be paid out to farmers at the start of a payment window.

We are retaining CAP schemes governing the Common Market’s organisation in other retained EU legislation. This legislation will allow the UK to respond to a crisis in the agricultural markets in the same way that the EU currently can. If there is a crisis in the agricultural sector, the Government will consider how to respond, including whether to provide further funding in the usual way.

[Lord Beith]

This is not a theoretical situation. I do not wish to turn doom-laden, but if the events we are discussing led to a sudden fall and crisis in the sheep sector, then market intervention might be an option that the Government had to consider. I recognise, as the Minister indicated, that we have other ways to do that.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Yes, and I think it has been clear from the department that, like any responsible Government or department, we would act if issues arose. The noble Lord mentioned the sheep sector; in the temporary tariff regime we brought forward, we recognised the sensitivity and potential vulnerability of that sector. He is absolutely right: we need to be alive to, and ready to act on, issues of weather or markets. That point is well made.

The noble Lord raised the issue of the euro. Defra and the DAs have agreed to retain references to the euro in retained EU legislation at the point of exit. This is because, at the point of exit, the CAP will be part-way through making payments under current schemes. To minimise disruption and avoid a difference in sums paid to farmers before and after exit, we will retain the euro until an appropriate time when we can make the change to sterling with minimal disruption. We intend to bring forward regulations to amend euro references to sterling later. These regulations will of course be subject to normal parliamentary scrutiny. In addition, we will work with the devolved Administrations on any changes.

The noble Lord, Lord Beith, asked about retention. On implications for farmers, I reiterate that the Government have guaranteed that the current level of agricultural funding under Pillar 1 will be upheld until 2020 as part of the transition to new domestic arrangements, and that all CAP Pillar 2 agreements signed before 31 December 2020 will be fully funded for their lifetimes. The exchange rate for BPS 2018 is already set for the scheme year, meaning that farmers paid either side of exit day will be subject to an identical exchange rate.

The noble Lord, Lord Beith, asked how many state aid rules there will be after exit. The state aid regime will be rolled over by this statutory instrument, as will the whole architecture through the BEIS statutory instrument. We are not making any changes to the current EU regime beyond those required to make these matters operable.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked whether the SIs will be necessary if the Agriculture Bill gains Royal Assent before the end of the current implementation period. If the current withdrawal agreement is agreed, these SIs will still be needed to ensure that the retained EU CAP legislation is operable in a UK context at the end of the implementation period. This will be the case even once the Agriculture Bill has gained Royal Assent. This is because the horizontal framework regulations, as amended by the SIs, will be required while we continue to operate legacy CAP schemes under retained EU law. Likewise, some CMO regulations will remain after the Agriculture Bill comes into force.

The noble Lord asked about the discontinuity in state aid: will DAs have their own rules and do they take effect at exit day or at the end of the implementation period? This is a reserved policy area, but, as with all the SIs I have had to deal with, there has been a close working relationship with the devolved Administrations. BEIS is working on a memorandum of understanding with the DAs, and my noble friend Lord Henley is working on this. If there is any further information I can bring forward from that, I will let your Lordships have a copy.

In a no-deal scenario—

Ivory Bill

Lord Beith Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Cormack is an extremely experienced parliamentarian, but his arguments would be a little more convincing if he avoided describing my noble friend the Minister’s response as obdurate.

One of the complaints that we hear about the House of Lords is that we are far too London-centric. I hope that the Minister will pay attention to the suggestions of the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, about the Northumbrian pipes. Perhaps there is something that the Minister could do—some special arrangement. I hope that my noble friend will think about that.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, and I thank her for bringing this amendment forward. Throughout most of my adult life I have had much pleasure from hearing the Northumbrian pipes. They are a sweet sounding, relatively quiet instrument—often played indoors—and were the musical instrument of many shepherds and farmworkers in the area that I used to represent. Subsequent generations of pipers have often come from other walks of life—teachers who have been in a variety of professions—but the core of people on whom the musical repertoire of the pipes has depended, and whose tunes are recorded, came from the farming life of Northumberland.

I want the Minister to understand how important this is to us and how strongly we are pleading for him to do something about what is now seen as a threat, particularly to the new pipers—young people and, sometimes, those in retirement—who have to acquire an instrument. We are talking about an instrument of which there are not large numbers. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, mentioned how many thousands of violin and cello bows there are in this country. The sets of Northumbrian pipes are numbered in hundreds—not thousands—and it is quite hard to acquire a set now that there are so few remaining craftsmen who make these instruments. Most of the people who are involved in this activity are not wealthy and if the supply is artificially restricted by the exclusion of so many instruments which were made before 1975 and have ivory content, it would be a very serious threat.

I confess that I have difficulty understanding how the 20% exemption could be applied in the area of Northumbrian pipes, although the Minister gave me a moment of hope when he referred to integral voids, such as the area of an interior of a drawer in a chest of drawers. My mind immediately went to the bag in which the air is pumped in from the bellows, which the piper operates with his or her arm. The bellows could at least be inflated when the judgment is made as to what the integral void is and whether it passes the 20% exemption. Describing that illustrates how worrying it would be if we have to depend on such a concept in order to get a reasonable exemption, which I am sure most people, looking at it rationally, would realise was necessary and was not a coach and horses.

What worries me is that there has been a lot of engagement and discussion with various trades and activities about this Bill. Not all of it has led to the outcomes that some would have desired, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has pointed out. I am not convinced that there has been enough engagement yet with Northumbrian pipers and those who are concerned for their welfare. I want the Minister to give us some assurance that he will try to ensure that that engagement takes place and that, by the time we reach Report, there is some way of dealing with this problem. I know that there is pressure not to amend this Bill so that it sails back to the House of Commons, but we are a revising Chamber and it is our job to discover if there are areas where the Bill does not meet the practical requirements of our society. If it is necessary to make a small amendment to the Bill better to meet the needs of Northumbrian pipers, the Minister must be ready to make that amendment, unless he finds a non-statutory way of achieving it. I have not yet seen that, so I think we will need an amendment at a later stage and I hope the Minister will apply himself to the task of finding a solution.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton]

My Lords, I apologise for jumping the gun earlier—perhaps I should say for coming in on an upbeat rather than a downbow. I support Amendment 26A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, which is very precise. I reiterate that there are several hundred thousand bows in the United Kingdom alone that have either ivory or mammoth faces weighing less than 1 or 2 grams, which is really minuscule. Some of these will be 200 years old and as musicians buy and sell bows regularly, this volume of permits will have to be redone every few years. The resources required for that would surely be much better directed towards the problem itself, towards protecting elephants and prosecuting the criminals who try to make money out of ivory. I say to the Minister that I completely understand and endorse the desire to make the Bill strong and as watertight as possible but surely there has to come a point, when we are talking about such a tiny thing that does not threaten living elephants in the slightest, where we have to apply common sense.

Lastly, I know there was a meeting of some of the ivory team at Defra, and they indicated to a bow maker that they would not be entirely against this. I can give the Minister more information on that if he would like it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beith]

I am grateful to the Minister for making that suggestion. I put it to him that one of the things that he and his officials might explore when they meet the society is how many instruments, and what proportion of the total stock of instruments in existence, would be affected if the law remained as is currently proposed, and whether that could be affected by any amendment in a helpful way.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Lord and I are on the same page. That is exactly the sort of requirement that I think we should have so that we can understand the points that noble Lords have made.

Some Northumbrian pipes may contain over 20% ivory and therefore may not meet the musical instruments exemption. I obviously cannot commit to this, but having heard what the noble Baroness and the noble Lord have said, is it possible that they could be considered under the rarest and most important items exemption, for instance, because of what the pipes mean in the community? I emphasise that the 20% measurement is applied to the whole instrument, including in the case of the pipes, the bag. I asked this question this morning: it does not include the inflated bag, but it does include the bag. I hope that detail is helpful.

I am a great champion of local traditions. This provision would not stop the pipes being played or enjoyed. As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has said, the ability to pass on and to donate these instruments so that the next generation can enjoy those that are not under 20% is still available. On that matter, not just because it was raised by the noble Baroness but because I recognise that I want the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society to feel that it has had a proper hearing, I will ask for that meeting to take place.

Sustainable Fisheries for Future Generations

Lord Beith Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, one point that has come to light is the importance of contemporary scientific advice. That is why Cefas will be so important. The problem with the common fisheries policy is that so much was predicated on something that may have been appropriate in the 1970s, but is no longer appropriate in the light of climate change and changes in fish stocks. This is a welcome opportunity for us to have more contemporary research and to learn, as my noble friend said, how better technology and science can furnish us with ways in which to care for the ecosystems in our waters, for which we will become responsible.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister realise that the majority of excellent shellfish from the north-east coast goes overnight to European markets and therefore depends on no customs delays at all? How about the Prime Minister serving some Northumberland lobster and crab to the Cabinet on Friday to make them think about the importance of frictionless trade?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I would always actively encourage everyone in Parliament to eat British fish and products—they are the best in the world. I would therefore encourage the consumption of any products from Northumberland, at Chequers or anywhere else. But the point, as I have tried to explain, is that there is a distinction under international law about access. It is in the mutual interest of the United Kingdom and the EU to have free and frictionless trade between our borders. That is in the interest of every part of the European Union and the United Kingdom.

Rural Areas: Income

Lord Beith Excerpts

Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Beith]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what process they use to assess the impact of government policy on people on low incomes living in rural areas.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, this Government are committed to working for everyone in all parts of the country. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, for his review of rural proofing. Through rural proofing, we will understand and better reflect in our policies the needs of rural communities, including those on low incomes. The Government are currently revising their guidance on rural proofing, and it will be published shortly on GOV.UK.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, I very much welcome rural proofing and the work that the Minister is doing on it, but why do so many government departments fail to recognise the huge barrier of transport costs faced by families on low incomes in rural areas when they need to access public services? Whether it is young people needing to get to further education colleges or older people needing to access increasingly centralised health and social services, they are so often cut off and excluded by the costs of transport. Surely we cannot allow ourselves to stumble into a situation where you have to be well off to live in the countryside.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord that it is very important that we enhance accessibility. Sparsity and the topography of the countryside mean that there are great challenges. That is why I am particularly pleased that the community minibus fund was launched. It will enable about 300 local charities and community groups across England to receive a new minibus, which will be helpful. Clearly, there is more that we want to do. On the whole issue of transport and accessibility it is important, for instance, that under the post office transformation all post office branches will have banking facilities. There are ways in which we can assist rural communities across the piece.

Rural Payments Agency: Basic Payment Scheme

Lord Beith Excerpts

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[George Eustice]

That is simply not true. We made our decision when we realised that a software update the weekend before last had not worked as we had hoped. It had nothing to do with any media coverage; the media have told us nothing that we were not already aware of. The Secretary of State and I work as a team, so I am here today and she will be appearing before the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee tomorrow. We have been working closely together on this and both regularly meet the RPA to discuss these challenges.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I remind my hon. Friend that until the coalition Government sorted out earlier problems at the RPA, I was having to deal with hundreds of cases of farmers in my constituency who were affected and to make representations on their behalf. Has he noted the fact that we will soon be in a six-week election period during which none of us, whether or not we are standing for re-election, will have the status of a Member of Parliament, so he is likely to receive representations during that period from extremely worried farmers?

[George Eustice]

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that although we will all cease to be Members of Parliament next Monday, I will remain the farming Minister and the Secretary of State will remain the Secretary of State until a new Government are formed, and I can reassure him that I will be having regular telephone conferences with the RPA and attending meetings to discuss and monitor the situation. We will keep a very close eye on this indeed.

Fishing Industry

Lord Beith Excerpts

Thursday 11th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Campbell]

It is a pleasure to do that. That respect is something we all share and exists in fishing communities, whoever they send to the House to represent them.

North Shields fishing port is one of the most important ports on the east coast—certainly the most important port between the Humber and the border—and its regeneration over the years is taking shape with good-quality houses and some excellent restaurants. However, it is still a working fishing port that is responsible for hundreds of local jobs, and boats come from all over the United Kingdom to use its facilities, particularly the fish market.

There is a constant need for regeneration and renewal in such a historical place. The Western Quay regeneration is complete, but work needs to be done on the fish quay where fish are landed. I know from experience that schemes require the involvement of all sorts of different bodies, including the fish quay company, the local authority, the MMO and the Port of Tyne—it previously would have involved the development agency. European funding plays an important part, too.

I therefore have two questions for the Minister. First, in the past, regeneration has been agreed by all parties—until the question of money is raised, when they look out of the window or stare at their shoes. I am not asking the Minister for money. I am asking for a commitment on behalf of all the Government agencies that might be involved to use their good offices—and resources, if they have them—to ensure that that regeneration goes ahead. If it does not, the industry in the area could be in trouble.

Secondly, will the Minister confirm that the European Commission has launched a major investigation into previous funding in the region because of issues of governance? Is it true that the Commission has refused to sign off the €464 million for the region? What are the implications for schemes such as the fish quay at North Shields?

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has raised that issue, because it is potentially important to the fishing industry. I met the Business Secretary on the subject a few days ago. There is an urgency to Ministers’ devising a mechanism that is acceptable to the European Commission to enable us to access funds that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can access.