Scotland: Devolution
Lord Beecham Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my local government interests contained in the register, and I join other noble Lords in congratulating my noble friend Lord Lennie on a remarkable maiden speech. He has the somewhat dubious distinction of having at one time been a constituent of mine, and I suppose it is possible that he might even have voted for me in the odd council election—or not.
There is a danger when debating devolution of being sucked into discussions about systems, processes and boundaries when what matters is outcomes in localities. I prefer to frame the debate as one about decentralisation in one of the most centralised countries in Europe. I concur with the dissent expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, from the Leader’s view to the contrary. The prime duty that we have if we are to acknowledge and deal with varying local needs and local opportunities in the economy, the environment and social provision is to ensure that local government is strengthened and enabled to work effectively with central government and its agencies.
I have long been interested in the problems of the north-east and what became known as regional policy. I served on the regional policy group of my noble friend Lord Prescott in the 1990s and regret that the Labour Government did not adopt its more ambitious proposals. But, perhaps more relevantly, I was also involved with the Local Government Association in developing the concept of Total Place—the idea that councils should lead partnerships in which the totality of public spending for an area could be brought together, with government departments and agencies, local councils and the directorates getting out of their silo-based approach to policy development and service delivery. In that way, they would be much more strategic and effective, with the added potential bonus of generating efficiencies by sharing services. To their credit, the Labour Government adopted the idea, with the Treasury being particularly supportive alongside the DCLG. Sadly, other departments were not similarly engaged and progress was slow, with very little evidence of any enthusiasm for the concept in the last four years.
There have been some welcome initiatives—for example, city deals, which have been mentioned this afternoon—but little in the way of bringing together such programmes as health, welfare, education, including further and higher education, housing, transport and others, which, in addition to economic development, need to be marshalled if the problems of communities are to be effectively addressed.
The creation of combined authorities, with Greater Manchester leading the way—I note that my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh will be speaking in this debate and no doubt will refer to it—offers a potentially powerful mechanism to drive part of this agenda. Although it seems obvious, for example, that the Highways Agency should be accountable to authorities in the different areas in which it operates, and that it and other public services and agencies should be part of the Total Place partnerships, there are two critical requirements without which decentralisation will fail.
The present Government have deliberately offloaded responsibilities to local authorities, for example in the area of council tax support, without the necessary financial resources. I have described this process as passing the buck without passing the bucks. Moreover, they have deliberately skewed the system of local government finance to impose much larger reductions in grants, and therefore cuts, on predominantly urban authorities. This has led to huge and disproportionate cuts, not only for the north and Midlands but also for inner London boroughs such as Newham, Lambeth and Hackney, and coastal towns such as Great Yarmouth and Blackpool. This has had devastating consequences for essential services. Merely passing tax-raising and tax-collecting powers to local councils will avail little if the tax base is inadequate. The grant system must be based on need. In effect, we need an English version of the Barnett formula, as recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Lang.
Higher priority needs to be given to infrastructure investment. Compare, for example, the £15 billion spent on Crossrail with the estimated £7 billion that just might be spent, at some point in the dim and very distant future, on the misnamed HS3 project to improve the rail system linking the north-west, Yorkshire and the north-east, with a population roughly the same size as that of London. In addition, there should be national minimum entitlements to key services, not the minimal entitlements to which we are rapidly descending.
We need to redress the profound inequalities which disfigure our society and hamper our efforts to grow the economy in a globalised, competitive world. We need to restore hope to a generation of young people and to communities where too many lives are stunted by poverty, ill health and the sense of being neglected. Power and resources must be restored to democratically elected local government, in partnership with central government. To facilitate these developments and ensure genuine cross-government involvement, we should also restore a regional presence for government itself. In the 1980s, the Conservative Government established regional offices, eventually involving most departments, which became an invaluable two-way conduit for concerns, information and dialogue between localities and the centre. The present Government abolished them, along with the regional development agencies, a piece of politically inspired vandalism which has greatly weakened the intelligence base of individual departments and the Government as a whole, as well as the capacity to harness resources across the board.
The changes I advocate seek to address the real problems we face, not the political gamesmanship of English votes for English laws. It is an agenda of decentralisation and partnership. Call it what you will; call it devolution if you must, but let us get on, with the urgency that the situation demands, with empowering local government and central government to work together—and, yes, with the private sector—in the interests of ensuring that they make the necessary impact on the lives of communities and citizens.
Public Interest Immunity Certificates
Lord Beecham Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, is not the SFO—the Serious Fraud Office—a seriously failing office? What expectations does the noble and learned Lord have of it improving on its rather poor record thus far?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I think that that goes slightly wide of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis. From Written Statements which have been made in the other place by the Attorney-General, and which I have placed in your Lordships’ House, I know a number of steps have been taken recently to improve the operation of the Serious Fraud Office. However, I will ensure that the comments made by the noble Lord are drawn to the attention of my right honourable and learned friend the Attorney General.
Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 5) Rules 2013
Lord Beecham Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Beecham
At end to insert “but that this House regrets that the rules do not reflect the significance of the introduction of closed material procedures to civil proceedings or the concerns expressed by Special Advocates”.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, in moving the amendment in my name, I begin by thanking the noble and learned Lord, as I am sure other noble Lords would wish to do, for his thorough and comprehensive introduction of the rules—without so much as a pause for breath in the 12 minutes or so that he addressed the House. It was, as ever, a compelling performance.
The controversial proposal to extend closed material procedures from the limited category of cases where they previously existed into the area of civil law claims involving the Government evoked much anxious debate in and well beyond this House. Today is not the occasion to revive that debate but rather to consider the nature and effect of the rules of court designed to implement Parliament’s decision, enshrined in the Act which received Royal Assent on 25 April. Notwithstanding the noble and learned Lord’s closing remarks, it must be said that the process itself might be described as something of a closed and rushed parliamentary procedure, since the rules were tabled on 26 June after what appears to have been a minimal consultation period of a mere 10 working days after draft rules were placed in the Libraries of both Houses, and that without any prior announcement.
Given the long gestation period of the legislation, it is surprising that more time was not made available to consult on rules which, on any view, reflect a substantial departure from the principles of our jurisprudence, as does the Act. In particular, they appear to qualify the overriding principle, set out in Civil Procedure Rule 1, that the courts will deal with cases justly and at proportionate cost. Did the Government think to consult, for example, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Constitution Committee of this House or the Justice Select Committee, all of which expressed significant views on the legislation in the course of its parliamentary journey? Who else was consulted and with what response? The noble and learned Lord referred to the Delegated Legislation Committee and so on. Were other bodies consulted? Did any body in fact respond in this rather quick consultation period?
As ever, the Government have been quick to find justification for their haste. There are, we are told, some 20 civil cases and some applications for judicial review waiting in the wings—one of which, we understand, has now been initiated. Are these the cases that we heard about between the publication of the Government’s Green Paper and the subsequent passage of the Bill, complete with dire warnings about the likelihood of having to pay millions of pounds, which might find their way into the hands of unidentified terrorists? If so, can it really be the case that a few weeks longer to consider the rules would have made much difference? If not, a fortiori, there would surely have been even less of a problem.
Before I return to the important issue of the effect of the rules as drafted on the principles enshrined in the Act, governing the basis on which the courts have to determine whether to grant an application of closed material procedures, it is necessary to consider some other important issues. The Ministry of Justice effectively appears to have transposed to this new arena of civil law cases the procedures applying in the very different world of special immigration appeal courts. In so doing, as Justice and the Law Society have pointed out, they have paid no regard to the way in which ordinary civil claims are conducted. How, for example, could the so-called Part 36 procedure work, under which an offer to settle can be made by a party, with adverse financial consequences for the other party if the offer is refused and not subsequently beaten at trial? Should this procedure be available where closed material procedures apply, when by definition the adverse party cannot properly assess the strength of the other’s case? If so and it could apply, what modification could be made to it?
A number of other issues have been raised. For example, Rule 82.7 requires notice of hearings to be served on the parties and the special advocate. There was considerable support in debate in your Lordships’ House for the media to be informed of the intention to use CMPs. Will the Government consider a further amendment to the rules to this effect, or will they provide an extra parliamentary process to secure that possibility?
Paragraph (3) of Rule 82.12 permits the court to receive evidence not otherwise admissible. Section 6(4)(b)(iii) of the Act provides that intercept evidence will become admissible. What other categories of inadmissible evidence does the noble and learned Lord envisage will be permitted under this rule or, conversely, what will continue to be excluded under this rule? Paragraph (7) of Rule 82.14 allows but does not require a summary of material not disclosed under CMP to be provided to a party, even where national security material is not included. Again, will the noble and learned Lord look at this, especially where national security material will not be involved? The rule may follow the wording of the Act, but it is open to the Government to indicate that they would not rely on a merely permissive obligation.
Of perhaps greater moment, there is the complete failure to address in these rules the concerns expressed by the special advocates during the deliberations over the legislation. The Justice brief, to which the noble and learned Lord alluded, cites nine major concerns. I will cite just two of them: the lack of any formal rules of evidence and the lack of a searchable database of closed judgments. If the noble and learned Lord has not seen the list, will he undertake to look into the matters raised and respond by way of letter? It is true that the special advocates chose not to revive those concerns, in the context of this limited period for consultation, but they are on the record. In my submission, they should have been dealt with in the course of preparing the rules which we are debating today.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. As my noble friend Lord Phillips said just now, we are dealing with very sensitive issues, which, in the debates on the Bill during its passage, received considerable attention, not least because of the very fundamental issues of the administration of justice to which they give rise. I think my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames was fair in saying that these rules that we now have are a fair and proper reflection of the architecture and detail of the statute that was passed by Parliament. The fact that it is in the form it is owes in many respects a lot to the work of your Lordships’ House, which the Government had no alternative but to pay heed to after the amendments were passed. The legislation that is in place is the better for that.
A number of important issues were raised. I will try to respond to them but I am conscious that, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said, I spoke without pausing to draw breath. He made a number of important points which I hope I will be able to capture. If I do not cover everything, I will certainly write to him and circulate it to all noble Lords who took part in the debate. I will also address the point he made about the various points in the Justice briefing, although he identified only one or two of those.
Not only was the statutory consultation followed with the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales and the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, but we sought also to allow an opportunity for your Lordships who had comments to feed those in, and for Members of the other place to do the same. I simply do not know whether the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission was engaged in this, or whether the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland consulted. Certainly, he was under no legal duty under the Act to do so. I can also say that the rules were being prepared as the Bill was going through and had to be very substantially changed in the light of the amendments that were passed. That was probably why they were not available at an earlier stage. Notwithstanding that, there was an opportunity for consultation, and, as my noble friend said, the rules we have are a proper reflection of what is in the Act.
Specifically, the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Constitution Committee were not consulted. At this stage, when we are dealing with rules, the appropriate bodies of Parliament are the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Those are the appropriate committees to consider the court rules and, as I said, neither of them wished to draw any particular matter to the attention of the House.
In regard to the important point raised by the noble Lord in respect of Part 36 of the rules, Rule 36.14 provides for costs consequences for a claimant who fails to beat the defendant’s offer,
“unless it considers it unjust to do so”.
Therefore the court will, as set out in Rule 36.14(4), take into account all the circumstances of the case, including information available to the parties, and it is expected that the court will be very alert to any issues that might make it unjust to follow the normal rule where a CMP is involved.
It is also important to say that these rules are not set in stone. While the initial set of rules had to be submitted to Parliament for approval as a requirement of the Act in respect of Northern Ireland and England and Wales, any amendment to the rules will proceed by the normal course of amendment to Civil Procedure Rules. If, at a future date, there were to be a change in the rules as a result of representations, that might well be something that could be included in the annual report to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, referred.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about further amendment; as I said, there is a procedure for that to happen. He asked what other forms of otherwise inadmissible evidence there might be. I recall that we went over this during some of our debates. He will find that the answer is in Section 6(4)(b), which says that,
“a party to the proceedings would be required to make such a disclosure were it not for one or more of the following”.
It may well be that if, for example, there had been,
“the possibility of a claim for public interest immunity in relation to the material”,
which could otherwise have excluded the material from closed material proceedings, that, of course, would not happen as a result of this. Therefore, that is another example, in addition to the obvious one he gave in terms of intercept material.
The noble Lord also asked about the database of closed judgments. The Government have sought to improve the database of closed judgments that is available to special advocates, and that work has been ongoing. I will come in a moment to the other important issues about judgments, which the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, mentioned. Of course, the judge’s discretion is there throughout. Whenever the disclosure has happened under Section 8, the judge is then required under Section 7 to look again to see whether it is still in the interests of the fair and effective administration of justice in these proceedings for the initial declaration for closed material proceedings to continue. Almost every step along the way, the interests of fair and effective administration of justice are brought into play.
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to the recent judgment of the Supreme Court in the Bank Mellat case. What he said in many respects reflected what was said many times during the debate, not least by me. It was there from the very first Green Paper that the intention of the Government is that closed material proceedings should be used in just a very small number of cases. At the time when the Bill came before your Lordships’ House, in the 12 months from October 2011 to October 2012, the figure of 20 was talked about. I do not have an up-to-date figure, but I understand that it has not changed much. Some cases may settle and new cases come in, but that is roughly the order of the cases. It is certainly our view that these cases should arise only where we believe it is strictly necessary. I do not believe that there is anything in the rules that is contrary to the principles identified by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, as President of the Supreme Court. I have no doubt, too, that in considering applications for closed material proceedings, these will be drawn to the attention of whichever judge is dealing with it. I am sure that the special advocates involved will be very astute and keen to do so.
However, the important point is that these will be matters for the judiciary, and the judiciary has indicated in that case at the highest level that the threshold is quite a high one. I have no doubt that in the months and years ahead there will be litigation on provisions of this legislation when there will be an opportunity for judges to indicate—with specific reference to this legislation—how it should be interpreted. However, as I indicated, I do not believe there is anything in the rules which run contrary to the principles that have been identified.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, asked me about what might be in the review as opposed to just numbers. I will give him an indication. For example, if there were a change to the rules of the court—which would not come before your Lordships, it would come before Parliament—that might be reported. In terms of development there would be an indication from the Secretary of State as to how he sees this law working out in practice. Maybe not in the first year, but after one or two years when there is some experience of how it works. I certainly would not see anything wrong in having a bit of a narrative, which can perhaps be expanded, as is possible consistent with the information and national security. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, also asked me whether the Attorney-General was consulted with regard to the Bank Mellat case. I simply do not know and cannot remember being told. He and I know that there is some delicacy as to what you say the Law Officers have been asked; but his comments about the involvement of the Law Officer comes from a distinguished former Attorney-General, and therefore I will certainly ensure that his comments on this are drawn not only to the attention of my right honourable friend the Attorney-General but generally to those who are going to be involved in these cases.
The further point, which the noble Lord, Lord Bew, made, was with regard to special advocates. I have no detailed knowledge of this, but I have no reason to think that the vetting is any less now. Of course, special advocates in Northern Ireland are appointed by the Advocate-General for Northern Ireland, who is of course one and the same person as the Attorney-General for England and Wales, a position which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, has previously held. Therefore, I think he can be assured that the scrutiny that is applied is done to the highest level. I hope that he has that reassurance.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised a number of points, and I hope that I have covered most of those raised in this debate. I believe that what we have here are rules that fairly and faithfully reflect the diligence of both Houses of Parliament in putting together a piece of legislation which we all recognise is hugely sensitive. In those circumstances, I commend them to the House.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord and I look forward to hearing further from him on some of the outstanding matters. He may well be right about Part 36 offers—well, of course, he must be right—and that the possible problem that might have existed in relation to costs of a Part 36 application is covered by Rule 36.14, as he says. But of course, that does not leave the party in any better position to assess whether to accept a Part 36 offer. There may not be a cost implication, but he is not in any position to assess the strength or otherwise of a Part 36 offer, which rather distinguishes it from the general case.
I am very grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to the debate, especially to the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Bew, to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, who broadly expressed support for the Motion. The noble Lord, Lord Marks, affects not to understand the reason or terms of the amendment. It is really fairly straightforward, I would have thought. The thrust of the argument that I sought to make, in which I was in various ways supported, is that we are seeing the transposition of a set of rules applicable to immigration cases under SIAC to ordinary civil procedure, as I said in opening the debate. That is the thrust of the first part of the amendment.
The second part of the amendment refers to the points made by the special advocates, to which the noble Lord, Lord Marks, chose not to direct his mind at all. I cited a couple of their concerns, but there were others—and I shall quote them, as we are not holding up a debate on the Care Bill by so doing. For example, among the points that they make, they talked about the,
“inability effectively to challenge non-disclosure … The lack of any practical ability to call evidence … The lack of any formal rules of evidence, so allowing second or third hand hearsay to be admitted, or even more remote evidence; frequently with the primary source unattributed and unidentifiable, and invariably unavailable for their evidence to be tested, even in closed proceedings … A systemic problem with prejudicially late disclosure by the Government … the Government's approach of refusing to make such disclosure as is recognised would require to be given until being put to its election, and the practice of iterative disclosure … The increasing practice of serving redacted closed documents on the Special Advocates, and resisting requests by the SAs for production of documents to them … on the basis of the Government’s unilateral view of relevance”.
These were all matters that were raised, and none of them appears to have been dealt with—
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
Does the noble Lord accept the point that I was making, that the special advocates’ objections went to the legislation and were considered by Parliament during the passage of the legislation? The special advocates have not objected to these rules as implementing the legislation. If that is right, that is the query that I raise about the point of this regret Motion, which is directed to the rules in particular.
Lord Beecham
But the points that the special advocates have raised go to the process, which is the subject of these rules. The points that I have made could and should have been taken into account in the drafting of the rules to implement this procedure other than simply on the basis of applying to these circumstances of civil claims the rules that apply in entirely different and non-analogous circumstances of special immigration appeals.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
Lord Beecham Excerpts(11 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Beecham
My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 6A as an amendment to Amendment 6.
During the Second Reading debate on the Bill I referred to the obvious difficulty that your Lordships faced in calibrating the balance between the two desiderata of justice and security. There were some then, as there are now, who took the view that such an exercise was unnecessary, and indeed wrong in principle, and that the interests of justice must at all times and in all circumstances be paramount. On that basis, they urged that Part 2 of the Bill dealing with closed material procedures should be struck out. That was not the view of your Lordships’ House which, following the advice of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the eloquent and forensic advocacy of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in particular, chose instead to amend the Bill and to circumscribe the application of a new procedure.
Those who would have wished to prevent any departure from the traditions of our system, which have long required that a party in a civil case should know the case he has to meet, must acknowledge that such a course is now no longer open to us. Our task, therefore, is to consider the Commons amendments and determine whether they have gone far enough in striking that delicate balance or whether, as I believe, further adjustments need to be made. I acknowledge and welcome the Government’s acceptance of some of the changes agreed by this House. In particular, as the Minister has pointed out, there is much more judicial involvement in the process than the Bill in its original form envisaged.
I also remind your Lordships of the serious implications for our system of justice of the Bill as it now stands and, to be frank, as it would stand even if, as I hope, we make further amendments and invite the House of Commons to think again about a small number of important issues. To a long line of pronouncements in this area by the most eminent judges we can now add the recent concerns expressed by the president of the Supreme Court, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger. Nor can we overlook the cavalier and, it might be thought, analogous approach of the Government to such different but cardinal areas as the deployment of emergency and retrospective legislation, demonstrated as recently as last Thursday and last night over the Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill.
That is why we need to build on the progress made thus far in improving this Bill in three areas in particular. Two are embodied in amendments in this group in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, dealing with what we may term, by way of shorthand, as the principles of last resort and judicial balancing respectively, reflecting the amendments moved so powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who would be moving them today had he been able to be present. The third area is that of a process for renewing the legislation after a period, to which we will come later. I propose to deal principally with the amendment in my name, but I whole heartedly endorse, and will say a word or two about, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald. I am authorised by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to say that he entirely supports these amendments. His recent article in the Times makes his views clear.
The first amendment, Amendment 6A, effectively seeks to restore the position set out in the Bill which left this House, in making the use of closed material procedures a last resort. Amendments 16A, 16B and 16C import the same principle into the process for the court’s review of its decision contained in government Amendment 16. I consider these to be consequential upon this first amendment. I trust the House will forgive me if I remind noble Lords that closed material procedures allow the use of material not disclosed to the other party, who is therefore not able to give effective instructions, even to the highly security-vetted special advocate appointed to assist him. The amendment seeks to correct this by requiring the court to consider whether a fair determination of the proceedings is not possible by other means, such as some of the processes available under PII, the public interest immunity procedure. These include a range of options, such as the gisting of the case, redaction, the giving of evidence by security agents from behind a screen, and more besides.
In relation to PII, it is interesting to note that the Government appear to be taking a somewhat inconsistent approach. Inquest proceedings, after all, will not be covered by the provisions of the Bill. The Government have constantly represented PII as a lengthy process which leaves them in a position where they might feel compelled to choose to settle a case rather than disclose information. Sweeping, if unsubstantiated, claims have been made about millions of pounds having been paid, or potentially having to be paid, to unidentified numbers of unidentified terrorists, to be used for unidentified purposes. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord could enlighten us as to the number of claimants who have received compensation, and who have been charged with any offence, been made subject to a control order or similar constraint, or had their compensation frozen—as it could be—on the grounds that it might be used for terrorist purposes. After all, the Minister without Portfolio, Mr Clarke, said:
“We expect only a handful of cases”.—[Official Report, Commons, 04/03/2013; col. 705.]
The notion that there is a great tidal wave of cases waiting to sweep over us and our system, involving vast expenditures, seems to have been exaggerated, to put it mildly, in the light of the Minister’s remarks just a week or two ago.
As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, pointed out in his article, under the PII procedure, the courts are,
“able to reconcile justice and security by taking steps”,
such as those to which I have referred. He went on:
“Only if those methods cannot protect security, and allow for an open assessment or at least a gist of the case against the claimant, should the court consider moving into a closed session”.
He went on to dismiss the Government’s contradictory responses, namely that judges would adopt that approach in any event, and that such a safeguard would be too time-consuming. He also went on to rebut the Government’s counterargument against balancing the interests of national security against the public interest in the fair and open administration of justice, pointing out that this is exactly what the PII procedure involves. He is of course, as the noble and learned Lord has pointed out, not the only Member of your Lordships’ House to have contributed to the columns of the Times on these issues. His article may be seen in part as a reply to a letter from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, expressing approval of the amended Bill’s provisions in relation to CMPs, to which he has referred at some length.
It is with more than usual trepidation that I join the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, special advocates, the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Equality and Human Rights Commission in respectfully dissenting from the conclusions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. These, while properly welcoming the positive responses by the Government to amendments carried by this House, for which the noble and learned Lord voted, effectively endorse their position on the issues of last resort and balancing. The noble and learned Lord referred in his letter, not unreasonably, to the fact that in a minority of cases, and I use the same quotation as the noble and learned Lord:
“The interests of justice are not served when courts are blindfolded”.
The consequences of closed material procedures are that claimants are both blindfolded and effectively gagged, even in cases of habeas corpus. The Minister without Portfolio has, after some initial confusion about the matter, conceded that the Bill would apply to this, one of the most fundamental parts of our English common law. It is not unreasonable therefore to require the court to determine that the case cannot fairly be decided by any other means, rather than it having merely to be satisfied that the Secretary has, in the words of proposed new subsection (1F),
“considered whether to make, or advise another person to make, a claim for public interest immunity”.
That sets a very low bar for the Secretary of State to surmount. He has only to have considered it. Concern about the Government’s overall position can only be enhanced, despite their bland assurances, by the form of words set out in proposed new subsection (1D) in Amendment 6, which makes two substantial changes to the amendment carried here on the recommendation of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Members may recall that Clause 6(2) of the Bill which left us stipulated that the court may make a declaration allowing CMP if, were the material to be disclosed, the degree of harm to the interests of national security would be likely to,
“outweigh the public interest in the fair and open administration of justice”.
Under Amendment 6, proposed new subsection (1D) changes this to impose the condition that,
“it is in the interests of the fair and effective administration of justice in the proceedings to make a declaration”.
Openness is therefore replaced by effectiveness, a very different concept. Effective, one might ask, from whose perspective? Is it that of the party, presumably the Government? Openness now counts for nothing. The phrase “in the proceedings” is added, excluding the wider considerations of the public interest. The concept of balancing the two interests disappears. This applies also to Amendment 16, on which the noble and learned Lord seeks to rely.
The Minister without Portfolio likes to paint with a broad brush. He claims that the effect of these amendments would require the Secretary of State and the court to go through all the documents before an application for a CMP is made. They would not. As the special advocates point out, disclosure under present statutory CMPs is no less time-consuming than PIIs. Once having examined the documents, the court could consider whether PII could lead to a fair trial without having to undergo a full PII exercise. The Secretary of State has only to consider whether a PII claim could have been made. He is not under an obligation to go through every document.
Mr Clarke’s adherence to liberal principles over the years has earned him many admirers in a lifetime in politics, although not necessarily within his own party. I hope that, by endorsing these amendments, the House can not only help to minimise the damage threatened to the most valued elements of our jurisprudence and judicial system, but help rescue the Minister without Portfolio from self-inflicted damage on his reputation for upholding those liberal values, as he comes to the end of his most distinguished career. In the name of our cherished traditions of fair and open justice, I invite your Lordships’ House to support the amendments.
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 6B in my name. Everyone accepts that CMPs represent a significant departure from normal rule of law principles. Many people accept that they also contain a strong strand of unfairness, and that this unfairness consists in the exclusion of one of the parties from a critical part of the proceedings, perhaps even that very part of the case in which the defining issue is decided. Therefore, the claimant can never know the evidence that has damned his cause—it is never revealed to him.
Let us be blunt about this. The party withholding the material, and gifting it to the judge in secret, will almost always be the Government. The illiberalism inherent in the Bill seems to me to lie in this. CMPs as presently constituted are not fair, because they do not and cannot deliver balanced justice between the citizen and the state. This is the finding of the JCHR; it is the finding of those eminent lawyers appointed by the Government to conduct closed proceedings, the special advocates; and it was the overwhelming conclusion of this House when last we debated these measures. It is no doubt in recognition of this central unfairness that the Government insist, and the Secretary of State has repeatedly insisted, that it is their fervent desire that CMPs should only ever be used as a last resort.
Lord Beecham
Lord Beecham
My Lords, your Lordships will be at one with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in agreeing that it is the prime duty of government to protect the national security. That is currently being achieved by a variety of means, including PII. It would continue to be achieved under the terms of this amendment if your Lordships’ House agrees to it and if that is confirmed by the House of Commons. Your Lordships’ House is usually and naturally reluctant to overturn Commons amendments. There can be no better or more necessary occasion to do so than when issues profoundly affecting our system of justice or the rights of citizens are at stake. This is just such an occasion. I beg to move and test the opinion of the House.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, I want to reinforce what the Minister has said about the prejudice which a sunset clause would have to the confidence which partners would have in us. I noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, was modifying his proposals in his speech because he has recognised that.
Let us suppose that an ally is at this moment considering whether to pass confidences to the Government. If those confidences were held by the intelligence services they would be protected under the Bill. If they were held by another department, they could be protected only by a certificate passed by a Secretary of State. If at this moment the ally was considering whether to pass those confidences to this country and was uncertain whether in four or five years’ time there would be closed procedures under which that certificate could then be considered, it would be a matter of uncertainty whether those confidences would be protected in four or five years’ time. That would affect the willingness of allies to pass secrets to us now. It would, therefore, be very damaging if a sunset clause in the form proposed originally by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, supported by the Opposition, were to pass into law. I very much hope that the House will not support that proposal.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and I am prepared to say at this stage that I will not be pressing my own amendment, which is on similar terms at least to the last amendment that the noble Lord has moved.
The noble Lord, Lord Butler, has adumbrated a case in which it would seem almost that the doctrine that no Parliament can bind its successor is somehow to be disregarded. Of course, it would be open to any subsequent Parliament to amend this law in any event. Any nation dealing with us will be aware of that. There is not, therefore, a great deal of force in what the noble Lord has been proposing as a justification for supporting the Government’s position on this matter.
The question arises: what is the point of a review? If a review is to take place—and the Government have given welcome acceptance to that concept—where does it lead? Apparently it would lead nowhere. The whole purpose of the review in these circumstances would be vitiated. There needs to be a review, given the nature of the change in our proceedings for us to establish a principle that there should be a renewal, and certainly on that basis I am prepared to support the noble Lord’s amendments.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, this has been a relatively short debate, but nevertheless important points have been made by my noble friend Lord Marks and the noble Lords, Lord Butler and Lord Beecham.
The first point I wish to make with regard to the first amendment in the name of my noble friend is, as I indicated in my opening remarks, that a number of public appointments, not least the appointment of Sir David Anderson, have been made by the Secretary of State without the consultation that my noble friend is suggesting in his amendment. I know that it is furthest from my noble friend’s mind to suggest this, but I am sure we would not want a situation where perhaps the appointment of some independent reviewers was questioned because they had not had the same statutory consultation requirements as have been proposed here.
I do not think anyone can deny that the role that Mr David Anderson plays is a very sensitive one. The independent reviewer of terrorism legislation reviews quite significantly the actions of the Executive. It is in the interests, too, of the Secretary of State that the person appointed as the reviewer is credible. I do not think that the recent appointment by the Home Secretary of the Biometrics Commissioner—or indeed of Mr Anderson—has given rise to any concerns. I would caution against fixing a problem that does not exist, because you might inadvertently create another problem by perhaps casting some doubt on the independence of those who have been appointed under the present regime. The Secretary of State should have the discretion, in a highly sensitive national security context, to ensure the appointment of an individual who does not pose any risk. I am sure that would be agreed across the House.
I listened to what my noble friend said and, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, pointed out, he indicated that he was perhaps shifting—that is not a criticism at all—on the position of the renewal, given the deemed Section 6 proceedings as far as Norwich Pharmacal is concerned. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, makes an important point with regard to the confidence in which other countries share information with us. The fact that there would be regular potential for renewals puts it in a different category from that raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and it could raise a problem. In one of our earliest debates, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, indicated from a visit to America that when we discussed information perhaps being withheld, it was not fanciful; it was something that he actually encountered in his role as a member of the ISC.
I simply say to my noble friend and to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who ask what is the point of a review if nothing could happen, that the answer lies in what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, himself said. No one is suggesting that this Parliament is binding its successors by this. I remind the House that it is not just the actions of the Executive and the Secretary of State; it is the whole system that we are setting up, which involves the courts. If a review proved that closed material proceedings were not working, manifest injustice was following on from them and they were not actually doing what they were set up to do, of course it would be possible for a future Parliament, through primary legislation, to repeal the legislation if that system is not working. Indeed, it may not go as far as repeal. It may be that a review would point out particular things that perhaps needed amendment, falling far short of a repeal. So a review could have a proper purpose that does not necessarily require a renewal order to follow on from it. In these circumstances, I invite the House to support and approve the amendments that have been brought from another place and I invite my noble friend not to move his amendment.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
Lord Beecham Excerpts(11 years, 12 months ago)
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Lord Beecham
My Lords, I apologise for my rush to the Dispatch Box. Have the Government reached any conclusions about the amendments passed by your Lordships’ House last week in respect of which the Deputy Prime Minister and the noble and learned Lord expressed a good deal of sympathy? Is that sympathy now to be translated into an acceptance of the amendments passed—or, indeed, in the form of fresh amendments to be moved by the Government in the House of Commons; and, if so, on what lines will they be?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I think that I indicated last week that the Government want to give very careful consideration to amendments that were passed by considerable majorities in your Lordships’ House on Report. The Government will address them, give them serious consideration and no doubt make their position plain in the other place, bearing in mind that the amendments were based on the recommendations of the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It is certainly the Government’s intention to respond to that report in a timely way.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
Lord Beecham Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Lord Beecham
My Lords, I thought it might help the House to take the unusual step of speaking early in the debate on behalf of the Opposition in order to make our position clear in relation to the amendments in this group, in particular those that emanate from the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I note, incidentally, that yesterday the Deputy Prime Minister endorsed many of its recommendations. In answer to a question from my right honourable friend Sadiq Khan, he said:
“I am very sympathetic to a lot of what the Committee says, and the Government are considering its amendments with an open and, in many respects, sympathetic mind. I hope that we will be able to amend the Bill to allay those concerns in line with many of the recommendations made by the Joint Committee on Human Rights”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/11/12; col. 428.]
I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord would be able, later in the debate, to indicate whether and when those expectations that the Deputy Prime Minister encouragingly aroused yesterday will be fulfilled. We already have some amendments that would not quite meet the Deputy Prime Minister’s intentions as expressed yesterday.
During Second Reading, I referred to the difficulty that we and Parliament as a whole face in calibrating the balance between the two principles embodied in the Bill’s title of “Justice” and “Security”. It has become increasingly clear that completely reconciling those competing desiderata is effectively impossible. We of course accept that the Government have genuine concerns about national security, even though, perhaps understandably, the Bill does not define the term, as was pointed out by a number of Members of your Lordships’ House, including the noble Lords, Lord Hodgson and Lord Deben, and the noble Earl, Lord Errol, during Second Reading. The noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, took the view then about national security that, “You know it when you see it”. That might be thought to be uncomfortably close to implying that security is in the eye of the beholder; in this case, a government beholder. It is impossible to provide a comprehensive statutory definition of what constitutes national security, but some guidance during parliamentary debates, of which later judicial notice might be taken, would be helpful in at least indicating areas that would fall outside the definition.
The Government’s other main concern, of course, is the difficulties that they face in presenting their case without the protection of closed proceedings, coupled with the cost—both reputational and financial—of having to settle cases in order to avoid disclosure. However, as we have heard repeatedly during the passage of this Bill through the House, the proposals constitute a radical departure from the cornerstone of our legal system: the right of a party to know, and to challenge, his opponent’s case. This right has been emphasised in the clearest terms in a number of judgments to which reference was made earlier in these proceedings, such as those of Lord Kerr and Lord Neuberger. Moreover, although the Government do not accept the point, they also appear to clash with the provisions of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights, as powerfully argued by John Howell QC in his opinion for the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I understand that the Government are not prepared to disclose the legal advice that they have obtained on this point, effectively invoking their own closed material procedure on the issue.
The Government’s proposals in themselves constitute a significant reputational risk to our system of justice. In passing, it is interesting that, just as we are debating this Bill, the Government are announcing serious changes to the system of judicial review that are designed to make it much more difficult for their decisions in a whole variety of areas to be challenged. Your Lordships might think that a disturbing pattern seems to be emerging.
We are told, in relation to CMPs, that a number of claims are now pending. However, interestingly, the special advocates were denied access by the Home Secretary to any of the files, despite the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, Mr David Anderson QC, upon whom the Government seem selectively to rely, supporting that request. We have recently seen in the Daily Mail an attempt to imply that the Government were facing the prospect of paying out millions to settle cases involving suspected terrorists, although even the Daily Mail, editorially, seems to be opposed to the Government’s proposals. But of course the procedures need not involve claimants of that description. They could apply to all civil claims where a national security justification might be advanced. So claims by a member of the Armed Forces or security services, or an innocent victim of what is euphemistically called “collateral damage” arising from military action, would also be caught by this procedure.
There is also the paradox that the procedures would not apply to inquests, so that justice will be seen to be done only where there has, sadly, been a fatality. Yet as my right honourable friend Sadiq Khan pointed out in his letter to Mr Clarke, the 7/7 inquests were conducted along lines very similar to those advocated by the Joint Committee and reflected in the amendments that we are now debating, without any damage ensuing.
The interests of national security can be protected by means other than simply relying upon closed material procedures. The Opposition support most of the suite of amendments effectively emanating from the Joint Committee report, seven of which we have subscribed to. The thrust of these amendments is to vest greater discretion in the judges, who are not quick to reject the Government’s case, and to facilitate a balancing of the public interest in justice and the interests of national security in a way that, despite the Government’s rather airy protestations, the Bill as drafted does not.
Amendment 33 extends the possibility of an application for CMP to either party and on the court’s own motion. Amendment 40 refers to the possibility of utilising the public interest immunity procedure under which, as we have heard from the noble Lords, Lord Hodgson and Lord Pannick, a variety of workable steps can be taken—gisting, redaction, confidentiality rings, closed hearings—to protect material that should not be made public, before recourse is had to closed material procedures as a last resort. Incidentally, Mr Clarke’s statement on Monday’s “Today” programme that the judge should not have the discretion to have, in public, evidence that puts at risk the lives of agents or intelligence services, was grossly misleading in implying that this would be a consequence of accepting amendments of this kind. The measures I have just mentioned would prevent that happening.
Amendments 35 to 38, 40 and 47 enshrine both the judicial discretion which many have criticised in the course of debates and the balancing principle which is at the heart of the Joint Committee’s proposals. Taken together, these amendments place the judge firmly in control of the process, with the means to balance the interests of justice and security, protecting from disclosure what is essential not to be made public. Despite the protestations of Ministers, the Bill in its current form does not meet these critical objectives.
We have some difficulties, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has referred to, with Amendments 48 to 50, particularly the insertion of the phrase, in Amendment 50,
“so far as it is possible to do so”,
in the proposed requirement to ensure that a summary of material, disclosure of which the court does not authorise, does not itself contain material damaging to national security. I for one am not sure what the words import or how far they would extend. We would wish to explore this issue further, perhaps at Third Reading, as the noble Lord indicated, or even later when the Bill is considered in the House of Commons.
In his letter of 13 November, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who has a deservedly high reputation for legal expertise and fair-mindedness, made some minor concessions and one major one. The latter restricts the order-making powers to extend closed material procedures, and another requires notice to be given to the other party of an intention to apply for a CMP. Those concessions are welcome and I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, and indeed the Government, for them. Interestingly, the noble and learned Lord’s letter also touches on the court’s inherent right to strike out a claim if highly relevant sensitive information could not be considered—itself a powerful tool with which to protect national security without the need for this Bill.
Outside the Government, there appears precious little support for the sweeping changes the Government propose. Civil liberties organisations—as one might expect, perhaps—the Law Society, the Bar Council, even Monday’s editorial in the Times, which has been quoted, and some leading Conservative Members of Parliament such as David Davis and Andrew Tyrie, unite in expressing profound concern at the changes that this Bill would bring about in our system of justice.
Like many other Members of this House, I travel to and from it by the Underground, where passengers are regularly enjoined to “mind the closing doors”. I hope we bear that injunction in mind today. We must ensure that the doors of justice are not closed in the way this Bill seeks to do, however genuine may be the reasons that prompt it.
We learnt a few days ago the identity of the next Archbishop of Canterbury, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, whom all Members of your Lordships’ House, of all faiths and none, will join in congratulating and wishing well. The announcement put me in mind of another archbishop, Thomas à Becket, whose life and death were the subject of TS Eliot’s Murder in the Cathedral, in which the following lines occur:
“The last temptation is the greatest treason:
To do the right deed for the wrong reason”.
I urge the House to support the amendments backed by the Opposition, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and in so doing not to succumb to the alternative temptation of doing the wrong deed for the right reason.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I speak as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I intend to make only one speech, if I can get away with that, and to make it as brief as I can.
The issues raised in this debate are of profound importance to the rule of law in a parliamentary democracy. Part 2 of the Bill has aroused huge and justifiable controversy. It was condemned root and branch by my party at its annual conference. Many Liberal Democrats would ditch Part 2 in its entirety as illiberal, with or without procedural safeguards. In her letter to the Times last week, the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, explained that she remains of the view that inviting the court to look at all the relevant secret material and letting it decide what, if any, weight to put on it is an advance over where we are today. I agree with her.
The purpose of these amendments, recommended unanimously by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, is to achieve that result and to make Part 2 comply with the fundamental principles of justice and fairness protected by the common law. We hope that the Minister and the House will agree that our report was thorough, fair and balanced, and that our recommendations are put forward to improve, not to wreck, Part 2.
I shall not delay and weary the House by reading the relevant parts of the JCHR report into the record. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has already referred to the relevant parts. The report speaks for itself, and I would suppose that anyone who takes part in this debate will have read the report in its entirety.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, Amendment 56A in this group is tabled in my name. I am afraid that it is a manuscript amendment and I hope that noble Lords have got it, but for those who were not given a copy when they came in, it is an addition to Clause 10 which is about the general provisions under Section 6 proceedings. It requires that the:
“Rules of court under subsection (2) shall only diverge from rules of court pertaining to proceedings outside the scope of this Act to the extent necessary to prevent disclosures of information damaging to the interests of national security”.
The whole point of the amendment is to put some constraint on the otherwise unacceptable breadth of the provisions in Clause 10(2) which allow rules of court to be made. Perhaps I may briefly give noble Lords a gist of the breadth of this provision-making power. The first set out in paragraph (a) is,
“about the mode of proof and about evidence in the proceedings”.
There are no qualifications, there is no limitation, guidance or definition, so they can just make rules about the mode of proof and evidence in the proceedings; paragraph (b) concerns whether the proceedings shall have a hearing attached to them at all; paragraph (c) concerns whether there shall be legal representations in the proceedings; and paragraph (d) concerns whether the person against whom the proceedings are launched shall have full particulars of the reasons for the decision reached in those proceedings, and so on.
I do not understand why the Government have produced a rule-making power relating to a highly sensitive and important clause with no constraint, limitation or definition. All my amendment seeks to do is to put a lasso around what I believe are unduly wide powers. It would provide that, in effect, the only use of these powers shall be,
“to prevent disclosures of information damaging to the interests of national security”,
which is what this part of the Bill is principally all about. I have put the amendment forward in the hope that the Government will accept it or, if the wording is not to their liking, that they will undertake to bring new wording back at Third Reading.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, I should say that the Opposition support Amendment 56. My noble friend Lady Kennedy beat me to the Public Bill Office in putting her name to it. As she and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, have said, it is important that the press and the media generally should have notification of applications of this kind. It complements a later amendment that will require the regular reporting of the number of applications that have been made, so to some degree the two things flow together.
The manuscript amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has arrived very late in the day and, given the other excitements we have been enjoying, I confess that I personally have not given it sufficient attention. I will be interested to hear the views of the Minister if she is replying to that particular amendment in due course. I would also be interested to learn the views of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, on it, if he is able to give them. On the face of it, the amendment seems fairly persuasive, but it has been brought forward so late that I am finding it difficult to come to a decision, although other noble Lords may find it easier to do so. But certainly so far as Amendment 56 is concerned, and indeed the original amendment in this group, the Opposition are fully supportive.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their remarks. I will speak generally and respond to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, has not said anything about his amendments in this group but what I will say applies to those as well.
The Bill does not seek to change the rules in relation to civil proceedings, save where this is necessary to have a closed material procedure; we are not otherwise changing the ordinary rules in civil procedures relating to disclosure of evidence. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, in speaking to his manuscript amendment, talked about adding a lasso. We believe that the Bill already provides a lasso. We agree with the thrust of the points he makes but do not think it is necessary to accept his amendment, because the Bill provides for the essence of this point in Clause 9, where it says that, subject to securing closed material procedures, the ordinary rules of disclosure must otherwise apply. The way that his amendment is worded may also be a potential source of confusion in that it is unclear what is meant by the word “necessary” in the amendment in a particular case. More specifically, we are already providing for the concerns that he has raised.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The point that I am trying to make, and I have made it several times, is that in the amendment that the Government are moving we are ensuring that it is now going to be part of the formal process of the courts to alert those who may be interested of the judge’s decision. As far as the media are concerned, we do not feel that it is necessary for there to be a specific notification to the media of the fact that the CMP has been applied for and consequently has been agreed or not agreed. There is nothing in that that is about withholding information.
The media report on other cases that use CMPs, in particular they are able to report on a finding on the issues. Indeed on other CMPs there does not seem to be a problem at all with the way that this works. In terms of the media being able to intervene in individual cases, which is another aspect to this amendment, civil damages cases that would be heard under this legislation are private law claims and it could be inappropriate for third party interventions to be made in such claims. The claimant may not want the media to intervene in the proceedings. I think that the most important point is that the outcome of all CMP cases will be reportable, increasing the opportunities for the media to report on these kinds of cases, as at present the Government are obviously having to settle rather than a claim being seen through to its conclusion.
I will turn to the other point that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, raised about closed judgments, which is also covered in the JCHR amendments. It may be helpful for noble Lords if I briefly give some background on how closed judgments already work. There is a judicial safeguard on the use of closed judgments. In a case involving sensitive material, the judge must be satisfied that any material in the closed, rather than open, judgment would be damaging to national security and so could not be released. Special advocates can also make submissions to the judge about moving material from the closed judgment to the open judgment. If the court is persuaded that there would be no harm to national security, the material can then be moved to the open judgment.
The Government believe that it is important that those that are entitled to access closed judgments are able to do so. For this reason, the Government have created a searchable database containing summaries of closed judgments that will allow special advocates and HMG counsel to identify potentially relevant closed judgments. It is worth making the point that this new initiative has been put in place following the various stages of the passage of this Bill, both in terms of hearings and of discussion at JCHR. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have led to that new database being available.
The amendments also propose a review mechanism. Although I welcome this suggestion, the Government do not think that this particular proposal would work in practice. As drafted, it could mean that a person could attempt to subvert the disclosure process built into closed material proceedings by applying for the information immediately after the court had decided what information should be contained within the open and closed judgment, and then at regular intervals thereafter. A person could also abuse the process and put in an application each day. This would place a serious resource burden on the courts and agencies.
Having listened to the debate today and the findings from the JCHR report, the Government recognise that the review of closed judgments is an important issue and needs further thinking. The Government therefore request that Ministers have more time to look into the issues and report our findings to Parliament during the passage of this Bill. Obviously this may be something that would be looked at in the other place. To conclude, I ask noble Lords to accept the government amendment not to have CMPs without notice. I hope from the course of this debate that the noble Lords who have amendments in this group feel able to withdraw them at this time.
Lord Beecham
Before the noble Baroness sits down, in relation to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, would it be a way forward for her to take that back so that it might be raised, if necessary, at Third Reading? It is very late and the Minister is in difficulty—I think that we are all in difficulty—in terms of understanding the implications of the amendment, so this may be a way through the dilemma.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I am grateful for that suggestion. I do not want to keep apologising, but I do think, if the Minister agrees, that that is the way to deal with this.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
Lord Beecham Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Lord Beecham
My Lords, I begin by paying tribute to my noble friend Lord Dubs, who has spent a lifetime in the indefatigable support of human and civil rights. I certainly listened very carefully to what he said today.
I confess to some disappointment that during this debate we have heard little evidence of the Deputy Prime Minister’s references to sympathy for the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and still less of the amendments that he said the Government would sympathetically consider. I do not know at what stage, if at all, this House will have an opportunity of considering such amendments. We have Third Reading next week, and there is no indication from the Minister that that would be an occasion when such amendments might come forward.
However, I would welcome the recognition of reality on the part of the Government Benches on three of the amendments that were moved earlier this evening. If those amendments had not been carried, we on the Opposition Benches would have voted for the amendment moved by my noble friend and supported by a number of your Lordships tonight, but we conclude that it would be better to send to the House of Commons the considered views and the amendments passed by very large majorities in this House than to send the Bill without those amendments, and simply leaving it that the provisions that caused most of us considerable anxiety were deleted from the Bill. In my judgment, and that of many of us in this House, that would leave us in possibly the worst of all possible worlds.
In terms of the practical politics of the situation, we might conceivably end up with a worse Bill returning to us than the one that, if this amendment is rejected, would be leaving us. For that reason, I am inviting my colleagues on these Benches not to support the amendment, but equally not to vote with the Government against it. My recommendation to my colleagues is that we should not vote on this amendment but should abstain. We look forward to the amendments that the Deputy Prime Minister spoke of yesterday which, presumably, would go further than those which this House approved with such substantial majorities this afternoon and this evening.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, this has clearly been an important debate with passions expressed on both sides of the argument. Following the votes that we have already had —on amendments which my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister was talking about; the House has had an opportunity to consider the amendments emanating from the JCHR report—the Bill looks very different from that which arrived on Report. The CMP process has now altered with the wishes already expressed by this House. I therefore urge noble Lords not to remove these clauses altogether after such time has been taken to scrutinise and amend them. My noble friend Lord Lester summed it up very well: there is no point in spending a long time before the Dinner Break putting these safeguards, as he described them, into the Bill, only to simply take them all out after the Dinner Break.
Lord Beecham
“Extent
(1) The powers under sections 6 to 11 of this Act expire at the end of the period of 5 years beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.
(2) The Secretary of State must before the end of the period of 5 years propose to Parliament that a Parliamentary select committee be established to conduct a review.”
Lord Beecham
My Lords, sunset clauses are never popular with governments and I suspect not too popular with Members of the House at this time of night either. I will accordingly not detain the House for long on this, and I do not intend to put the amendment to the vote. However, I ask the Government seriously to consider it given the magnitude of the change under whatever form this Bill now takes. Whether it rests with the amendments agreed today by your Lordships’ House or it comes back to us from the House of Commons in a somewhat different form, it is in any view still a major change in our system of justice. It is one that should be monitored as it takes effect over a period.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for moving the amendment, which I say at the outset we are not in a position to accept. However, let me give an indication as to why sunset clauses are not necessarily appropriate here. Apart from anything else, I am trying to get my head around the idea of a sunset clause for litigation which could go over a period of time and it is difficult to think that you might have to sunset something. A case might start under a particular form of procedure and, if the sunset clause was effective, that procedure could be reverted in midstream.
There are also other considerations because this goes beyond what is proposed for the closed material proceedings we have been discussing. In relation to the case of Norwich Pharmacal, one of the primary concerns we are seeking to address is how we provide reassurance to those who give us important intelligence information so that we can protect information shared with us in confidence. A time-limited protection would undermine any reassurance we were able to give.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the Minister should recognise that the amendment relates only to Clauses 6 to 11.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I apologise. Other amendments are grouped with it which I suspect have not been spoken to. None the less, the point I was making earlier applies to Clauses 6 to 11. If there was a procedure in train and the provisions were to sunset, I am not sure how that would rest.
However, I may be able to give some reassurance. The Constitution Committee did not recommend a sunset clause but said that the House may wish to consider the Bill being independently reviewed five years after it comes into force. Of course, Bills are subject to review normally some three to five years after Royal Assent, and it might be appropriate to do that should the Select Committee with responsibility decide that it wished to conduct a fuller post-legislative inquiry into the Act.
I recognise what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has said and it is self-evident from the debates that we have had that this is a material change. However, it is right and proper that we should leave it to the Select Committee to decide the form that the independent post-legislative scrutiny should take. That is a proper way in which this matter might be addressed.
Lord Beecham
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. I welcome the noble and learned Lord’s indication that some kind of Select Committee procedure might be adopted for this purpose.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I will follow that by asking whether the Government are satisfied that the objections that they have told us there are to the use of intercept evidence in other cases do not apply in the case of employment tribunals. I have been listening to the introduction of this amendment, wondering whether I am in favour of it because I am in favour of the use of intercept evidence or against it because, presumably, the intercept evidence could be treated as closed material. I am rather torn on this, but the question that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, raises is a very important one.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I endorse my noble friend’s remarks. I touched on a similar point during Second Reading and I think other Members of your Lordships’ House have also expressed an interest in this matter. We obviously do not expect the Minister to confirm that the principle will be adopted forthwith, but it would be helpful if an indication could be given as to when the Government might respond to the interest in this that has been evident in various of our debates as this Bill has made progress through the House.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am grateful to noble Lords for extending the scope of our debate somewhat, outside the frame of the particular Bill that we are dealing with. It raises some very interesting issues and both the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and my noble friend Lady Hamwee got to the nub of the issue. I take the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, to perhaps not make a commitment on this issue. However, I can describe the parameters, because Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the right to a fair trial, differs between civil and criminal proceedings. In particular, the exacting standards imposed by the criminal limb of Article 6, which is at the heart of the legal difficulties for a workable IAE regime, do not apply in the context of civil proceedings.
Furthermore, the nature of CMPs—which may well be involved of course, because of the nature of the intelligence—means that legitimate national security interests, such as the need to protect sensitive techniques or capabilities, can be more certainly protected than in criminal proceedings. I think all noble Lords would understand that. The proposals in the Bill demonstrate our commitment to making progress wherever it is possible. We continue to engage with the cross-party advisory group of privy counsellors in this work.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
Lord Beecham Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I can certainly assure my noble friend that the Government give serious attention to representations from the Equality and Human Rights Commission and to this particular opinion, as I have indicated. There is a good response to the two key concerns that have been raised. It is the Secretary of State who applies for the CMP, but it is nevertheless the courts which decide whether to grant a declaration and, thereafter, which material will be heard in closed proceedings. With regard to criticism of the standard of gisting, we believe, as we said in Committee, that following the judgment in the Tariq case the Supreme Court found that the requirement of fairness can vary from case to case. The Bill states that closed material proceedings must comply with Article 6, when it applies, and we leave it to the courts to decide what Article 6 requires in any case. I am grateful for the constructive proposal of my noble friend. He will be aware that as well as considering seriously the opinion of the ECHRC, we will also consider the comments made in Committee, and I think we will receive before Report stage the report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I certainly look forward to giving that the consideration it deserves.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, given the dictum of the late Lord Scarman that public interest immunity is a matter of substantive public law, not private right, and that of the late Lord Bingham, that:
“It is an exclusionary rule, imposed on parties in certain circumstances, even where it is to their disadvantage”,
does the Minister agree with the opinion of leading counsel furnished to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission that,
“it is the duty of courts and tribunals to give effect to such immunity if applicable”—
on their own motion—
“even if the parties do not wish it”?
If so, what are the implications for the proposals in the Bill?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, again the issues regarding public interest immunity have been well aired and were referred to by my noble friend Lord Marks. I am sure that we will return to this on Report. The concern expressed during our earlier debates was that if PII is successfully asserted by the Secretary of State, that material in respect of which PII is successfully claimed has no part to play—it is not admitted to the proceedings. The Government’s concern is that there may well be situations where the Government have an answer to serious allegations made against them but, under the PII system alone, they are not able to bring that material before a judge. We believe that it is better if it is before a judge, subject of course to the proper safeguards in this Bill.