Horizon 2020

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to continue participation in the Horizon 2020 programme beyond the Brexit transition period.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, the terms of the withdrawal agreement mean that the UK will continue to participate in EU programmes financed by the 2014-2020 multiannual financial framework until their closure. UK scientists, researchers and businesses can continue to participate in these programmes and receive EU grant funding until the end of 2020 and for the lifetime of individual projects.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am slightly disappointed by the Minister’s response. Given the Government’s correct ambition to double R&D spend by 2027, in a post-Brexit UK would he agree that we should seek an association agreement with Horizon Europe? Given that the withdrawal agreement has been signed, can he outline the negotiation timetable for our participation in the Horizon programme so that universities can begin to plan research for 2021 and beyond?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord makes an interesting point. He will recall that when Horizon 2020 was being negotiated this time seven years ago a significant effort was made by the EU to cut the funding in order to put more money into agriculture. One of my colleagues, Vicky Ford, now an MP, managed to stop that cut being so significant. We are at that delicate stage now. Horizon Europe has not yet been determined and we cannot therefore be sure exactly what it will look like or how we can engage with it until the EU has completed those operations.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, in Committee my noble friend Lord McNicol joined in the general support for the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Storey. That support remains today from these Benches.

I shall not repeat the arguments that noble Lords have more ably made in this short debate, but I read the debate on the amendment carefully. The Minister probably feels he went as far as he could in trying to reassure the Committee that the Government were not about to pull the plug on support for Erasmus+. I am not sure that he has. First, the Prime Minister made a commitment that:

“UK students will continue to be able to enjoy the benefits of exchanges.”—[Official Report, Commons, 15/1/20; col. 1021.]


However, that commitment seems qualified by the comments made by the Secretary of State for Education, who has talked of developing

“our own alternative arrangements should they be needed.”—[Official Report, Commons, 14/1/20; col. 912.]

That rather suggests that our participation is still very much in flux, a point that the Minister underlined when he said that participation would be

“subject to our negotiations on the future UK-EU relationship.”—[Official Report, 16/1/20; col. 871.]

The Minister also repeatedly reminded us that the outline of Erasmus+ for 2021 to 2027 has yet to be finalised, so that there is not yet a programme to sign up to, but we know that the programme is set to double its expansiveness and cost over that period. In Committee, the Minister set out the Government’s ambition that by 2030 the UK would be hosting 600,000 international students and that the value of educational exports would by that point reach £35 billion a year.

Exactly how does the Minister expect to achieve those objectives and that ambition if we are not participants in the Erasmus+ programme? The start date for the next programme is 2021. We are now less than 12 months away from it kicking off. This is precisely when institutions make programme commitments and students begin to plan their study schedules. Both my daughters began to plan well in advance of their university exchange schemes. I hasten to add that they were not Erasmus+, but were programmes involving US universities. I know from experience that these things take time to set up and carry through and that the last thing that participants, whether they are institutions or students, want is uncertainty. It is the same with business: business wants certainty.

I think the Minister could this evening give a firmer commitment without compromising the Government’s negotiating position, not least because we are net beneficiaries from the scheme overall. Can he at least advise the House whether the Government have made financial provision for the next Erasmus programme and, if not, whether it will be included in the upcoming Budget? Can he at least give the House an outline of the Erasmus negotiation timetable so that universities and students have some idea of when these issues will be resolved?

Finally I take this opportunity to tweak the Minister on a point which my noble friend Lord McNicol raised in the previous debate about the Horizon 2020 research programme. To my way of looking at things, it is in a similar state of limbo with a fast- approaching cliff edge. Can we please have some news on progress on that programme? It is in many ways part of Erasmus+, because research and study travel are very much linked. I think the House deserves to know exactly where we are heading with both those policies.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to respond to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Storey. Amendment 16 seeks to introduce parliamentary oversight requirements that the Government feel are unnecessary. I will try not to go over all the points we discussed last week in Committee.

I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, that the Prime Minister has already given a strong commitment at Second Reading in the Commons on 20 December. He said:

“Parliament will be kept fully informed of progress of these negotiations.”—[Official Report, Commons, 20/12/19; col. 150.]


That is extremely important.

I shall address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Smith, about oversight. In the past few years both Houses have demonstrated that they have a wide range of tools at their disposal to scrutinise the Government, including through Ministerial Questions and debates. Indeed, as I am relatively new to these procedures, I asked my office to tell me how many tools were available for the oversight of a Government by Parliament and I was given a list of over 20. They might not all be applicable here but we heard some useful statistics on Amendment 15 from my noble friend Lord Bridges, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, made a similar comment—that there is a tremendous ability for oversight. I am sure that both Houses will continue to use these scrutiny tools to hold our Government to account and will pay close attention to the negotiation process, not least as the Government’s vision for the future relationship with the EU is already set out in the political declaration. There is therefore no need to set out in this Bill bespoke oversight requirements specifically for Erasmus+.

The Government have already been clear about their position on Erasmus+ and have stated that they remain open to future participation in the next programme. However, there are a number of important uncertainties that prevent them making firm commitments at this stage—not least that, until we see the final substance and text of the Erasmus+ programme and the regulations that are still under discussion in Brussels, we cannot be sure what the next stage of the programme will look like.

I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, a timetable because the cake is still in the oven—there is still a lot of uncertainty. Several noble Lords mentioned the sum of money involved. I was briefed that the amount could be anywhere between double and treble, and that is in the context that some €14.5 billion has been spent on the current scheme in the last seven years. Therefore, these are colossal sums of money.

I fully recognise that the UK’s potential participation in the next programme is of particular interest and importance to noble Lords. I assure the House that its voice and views are being, and will continue to be, heard. I reiterate our reassurance that this Government strongly value international exchange and collaboration in education as part of our vision for global Britain. We believe that the UK and European countries should continue to give young people and students opportunities to benefit from each other’s world-leading universities. I mentioned last week the increase in the number of foreign students coming here over the last three years. However, as mentioned, we are waiting to see the full details of the new arrangements.

On a personal level, my son attends a foreign university and is looking at his own exchange arrangements as we speak. We discussed last week the power of these exchange programmes for young people. I do not think that we are arguing about very much. The difference in the debate is that noble Lords are seeking stronger commitments to bind the Government than we believe we can agree to.

I trust that that explanation and our wider reassurance demonstrate why the amendment is not necessary at this time. I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Storey, to withdraw it.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

Can the noble Lord address my budget question? Is money in the current Budget committed to the future Erasmus+ programme, and is this something that the Chancellor will address in the upcoming Budget?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I am sure that noble Lords will not be surprised to hear me say that that is a matter for the spending review, which will take place in the summer. However, I would be very surprised if there were not a commitment to that kind of expenditure.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

In that case, perhaps the noble Lord would care to write to me on the budget that is currently set aside for Erasmus+ in the next financial year.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I am certainly very happy to share with the noble Lord any information that I get on the spending review when it is available, but I suspect that I will not be privy to that any sooner that he will be.

Freedom of Establishment and Free Movement of Services (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I wish I could give my noble friend the reassurance she seeks, but these elements remain part of the future relationship negotiations and there has been unwillingness on the part of individual member states to discuss these matters. Much as I would like to be able to give her confidence on that matter, I cannot. That will be part of the future relationship negotiations, and I hope we can move on to that as swiftly as we can.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

I have listened very carefully to everything the Minister has said. He seems to be saying that nothing changes. That being the case, why are these regulations required or necessary at all, if they change nothing?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I did not say that. What I said was that these regulations have no impact upon the ability of EU nationals resident in the UK to operate, full stop. Going forward, they seek to disapply—bugger!

Localism Bill

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contribution. It is not easy, because we had no idea of the exact time when the earlier Bill would conclude today. There were great expectations that there would be a serious amount of time to discuss localism today, but noble Lords in regulating themselves felt that it was important to consider the previous Bill. Those who have been observant will have seen that various noble Lords have been talking off the Floor of the House, as others have been talking on the Floor. If we could make a start on the Localism Bill now, even though there are only 22 minutes before seven o’clock, we could do one or two amendments. That would be sensible.

The usual channels can channel away a little longer and, I hope, make a statement before we conclude tonight. We do have it in our diaries to come here on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. The prospect has been put—

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

It might be for the convenience of the House if we invite the government Chief Whip to make her statement now, because I think it would help us to draw proceedings to a close. I, as ever, wish to be helpful.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, my deputy and I are joined at the hip, like twins. In this occasion, the Gemini were slightly apart, and I had the advantage of being able to have a further conversation with the opposition Chief Whip as well as briefly with the Leader of the Opposition and their spokesman on these matters. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is spokesman not only on this Bill but also on the Welfare Reform Bill, which as he has just this moment said is very important. We have perhaps found a new way forward, which needs further examination but would provide for the inclusion of the Localism Bill next week. It would also meet some of the concerns expressed around the House that, having started the Welfare Reform Bill Second Reading, we would do the Committee stage as soon as we got back in September.

The discussions now afoot would mean that we would do whatever we may within about the 20 minutes or so remaining tonight on the first amendment on the Localism Bill. However, we would expect to continue discussions. The proposal is around the idea that Monday would go ahead as anticipated, with the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill followed by the Finance Bill, but on Tuesday it may well be that instead of the Welfare Reform Bill Second Reading, we could then have a full day on the Localism Bill and on Wednesday, as already scheduled, start the day on the police Bill Third Reading but then move into the Localism Bill, with a fair expectation of being able to conclude that business.

People say that the House of Lords stays the same over centuries, but things can happen in seconds here by agreement. That is one of the interesting things of this place, where there is self-regulation. I know that there is continuing good will on these matters. I think that this is the time when Chief Whips sit down and invite the Convenor and others to come to a meeting to discuss what the impact might be on their Benches.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, as ever, my door is open for discussions and if there is some small progress this evening and we can carry on discussing next week’s business, that would be very helpful.