Living Standards

Debate between Lord Barwell and Chris Leslie

Wednesday 4th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Barwell]

I cannot give way again.

There is also the crucial issue of wages. I have talked about the national minimum wage already, and there were some interesting reports in the media recently about the Government perhaps looking at what they can do on the minimum wage. As a Conservative, I would worry very much about a uniform increase, which might price some people out of the labour market. However, there is a case for asking whether larger companies or those that are making healthy profits should not be paying their staff more, because at the moment we are subsidising some employers to pay low wages, through the tax credit system that the previous Government introduced. I very much hope that the Government will look at how we tackle the issue of quality of life for people on low pay from both ends, by raising the personal allowance, so that we do not tax them so much, but also seeing whether we can ensure that they are paid a fair wage for the hard work they do.

One Opposition Member who talked about this issue implied that it was just Labour councils that are passionate about a living wage. My local authority, Conservative-controlled Croydon council, pays all its staff the London living wage, while the Mayor of London has guaranteed that that will apply to all staff working for the Greater London authority as well.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Gavin Barwell]

I am afraid I cannot give way again.

That is a big issue, particularly in London and the south-east, where pay costs are highest.

I also want to raise with my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who gave an incredibly thoughtful speech, the issue of public sector pay. We have been quite right to restrict increases in public sector pay, because high increases would simply have meant more joblessness, but there is a limit to how long that policy can be continued. I hope that as wages increase in the wider economy, those who work in the public sector are not left out of that process.

Finally, if we want a high-wage economy, the long-term solution is to ensure that we have people with high skills who can command high wages in our globalised labour market. That is why I am so proud to work as the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Secretary of State for Education, whose work, building on what the former Prime Minister and Lord Adonis achieved, is transforming standards of education in our country. Ultimately, if young people in Croydon Central want to command high wages in our economy, they need the qualifications and skills that will enable them to secure those jobs. We should not pretend that there is not a problem, but the Government are doing much to deal with it, and I hope they will do more still.

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[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

First, I commend my right hon. and hon. Friends for holding the Government to account on the cost of living crisis. My hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) made a powerful speech about the cases that Opposition Members see in our constituencies, with hard-pressed families struggling to make ends meet. She talked about not just the crisis that they face but the difficulty of even getting advice and support, including from the citizens advice bureau, as local authorities are scaling back their grants to voluntary organisations.

The crisis is exceptionally significant, so it is sad that there has been scant interest in the debate among Conservative Members and zero interest among Liberal Democrat Members, who have been completely absent from the debate for the past three hours. What better way could there be for hon. Members to see the complacency and lack of interest among Government Members in one of the most pressing and significant issues for our constituents?

We have had not just inaction from the Government for the past three years but policies that are actively making the cost of living worse for most people. Month after month, year after year, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have presided over prices rising faster than wages. No other Prime Minister since records began has come close to the disaster in family living standards that the current Prime Minister and Chancellor have overseen. For 37 of the Prime Minister’s 38 months in office, real wages have shrunk in value. The pound in the pocket, the pound that someone has earned, does not go as far as it used to—it is diminished in value and worth less than it was before. No wonder people are working longer hours just to stand still.

Three years of suspended animation have created a treadmill economy in which millions are struggling just to stay where they are. My hon. Friends the Members for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) and for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) made that point exceptionally coherently. To listen to Government Members, however—those who took the trouble to take part this afternoon, possibly because reshuffle season is coming up—one would think that the way things are going is their idea of economic success.

Average hourly wages have fallen by 5.5% since the middle of 2010, but millionaires have never had it so good. Living standards for most people are falling, not rising, and as the Financial Times has pointed out, real wages have dropped back to their 2004 level.

[Gavin Barwell]

The hon. Gentleman said that millionaires had never had it so good. Will he remind us what the marginal rate of tax on millionaires was under the Labour Government, and how that compares with today?

[Chris Leslie]

For a moment during the hon. Gentleman’s speech earlier, I thought he was a little embarrassed about the cut in the top rate of tax from 50p to 45p, which happened in April. I was on the verge of intervening on him to ask whether he regretted voting to give priority to such a cut at a time when living standards are under the most stress. Does he regret doing that? Does he think it was the wrong thing to do?

[Gavin Barwell]

rose—

[Chris Leslie]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman one more time if he wants to say sorry to the House.

[Gavin Barwell]

The whole House will have noted that the hon. Gentleman is unable to answer the question, but I will set a good example and answer his question. I do not think very wealthy people need a tax cut in terms of living standards, but I think that when attracting wealthy people to locate to this country, high marginal rates of tax are a bad idea, and therefore I voted for change.

[Chris Leslie]

I said it was reshuffle season. We nearly got an apology; the hon. Gentleman does not think rich people need that tax cut, but he voted to give it to them anyway because he is that sort of generous guy. I say to him, and to other Members, that the Office for Budget Responsibility, which the Government created, predicts that by the next general election in 2015, annual incomes will be £1,520 lower than they were in 2010 in real terms. That is lower wages. Just think about that statistic for a moment. Five years of Conservative and Liberal Democrat administration will have left a legacy for working people in which they are actually worse off, and significantly so.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between Lord Barwell and Chris Leslie

Tuesday 22nd June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Leslie]

I sincerely hope that that does not happen, but I worry that my hon. Friend may well indeed be right. The Government have tried their best to stagger the arrangement by delaying the introduction of the VAT rise, but they had better hope that the recovery is well under way by the time that the increase comes in—I think, in January—because, if there are still difficulties in our economy and they wallop up VAT by such a large amount, we risk a double-dip recession, which would particularly hit those who are in greatest need.

I want to talk about the most pernicious parts of the Budget which affect child poverty and even infant mortality: for instance, the scrapping of the health in pregnancy grant—just stating its name makes me incredulous that the Government have chosen it—in this financial year, from January onwards, coupled with the restriction of the Sure Start maternity grant to the first child from April 2011. I shall be very interested to see whether Government Members will walk through the Lobby with their heads held high to vote on those measures in respect of pregnant women in the greatest need. Coupled with the freezing of child benefit for three years, the shunting of lone parents off income support from next year—something that is also hidden away in the Budget—the abolition of the child trust fund and a couple of other things that the Chancellor spoke about very quickly in his statement, such as reversing the child tax credit supplement for one and two-year-olds and removing the baby element of the child tax credit from next year, which will cost young new families across the country £295 million, that is a phenomenal tax essentially on those who are in greatest need. Taken together, that seems to be one of the most despicable series of changes in the Budget.

[Gavin Barwell]

rose—

[Chris Leslie]

I should like to hear the hon. Gentleman justify those changes.

[Gavin Barwell]

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in taking interventions. Has he had the chance to look at chart A6 on page 70 of the Red Book, which shows the combined effect of the freeze in child benefits and the indexation increase in child tax credit? It demonstrates that the two changes are extremely progressive when taken together and not regressive, as he tries to argue.

[Chris Leslie]

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman talks about that table because I have looked at the whole of annexe A of the document, which attempts to suggest that the changes will affect all income levels fairly and that we are all in it together. However, the tables extend only to 2012-13, which is only a couple of years hence. If the hon. Gentleman has a copy of the document in front of him, he will see that page 40 shows that cuts in benefits really start to bite in—guess when—2013-14 and 2014-15. There is more spin in the document than in any Budget document that I have seen before. If the hon. Gentleman would care to table a written question to the Chancellor to ask for the tables to be extended beyond the short period to 2012-13, I would then be more than happy to debate fairness implications.

I would like to raise a few more of the many hidden elements in the Budget. The Budget will levy an extra £455 million of tax on the insurance bills that our constituents pay, such as for buildings and contents insurance, although I do not think that the Chancellor mentioned that in his statement. The Government will also scrap the saving gateway, which was due to be introduced in July. That initiative was designed to encourage the very poorest in society to save for the future, but it is gone as a result of the Chancellor’s generosity. Given that the child trust fund is also being scrapped, we will have no measures to encourage the poorest in society to start the savings habit, so it is a great pity that Government Members will support such policies.

A further hidden element in the Budget is the Government’s announcement that they will cut support for the payment of unemployed people’s mortgage interest by £15 million in this financial year, although that support is given at the point of those people’s lives at which they are in most need.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Leslie]

Absolutely—my hon. Friend is right. We need a mature debate about the economy, and the hon. Lady should listen to her hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), who said that there are differences of opinion. There is not just one particular view of these things.

There are risks to the economy from completely pulling the rug from under it by doing things such as imposing tax increases that go too far or cutting public expenditure too swiftly or harshly. If the hon. Lady thinks that we can cut public expenditure harshly without any ramifications for the economy, I shall just have to beg to differ.

I have been director of a local government research organisation for the past five years, and something that I suspected would be in the Budget looks as if it may be coming. Capital expenditure will reduce significantly, but many local authorities rely on public borrowing from the Public Works Loan Board, which has a prudential borrowing regime that offers considerable freedom to local authorities as a means of accessing capital for important projects in our constituencies. The Budget document reveals that the tap may well begin to be turned off for local authorities, and discusses monitoring that lending far more closely. Reading between the lines, the implication is that the Government are considering reviewing the prudential borrowing regime. I urge members of the Government, particularly the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), who helpfully has come into the Chamber especially to hear my contribution, not to change that prudential borrowing framework, because the implications may be severe.

[Gavin Barwell]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. He has just made an important point, but I should like to take him back to his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry). He said that he wanted a pro-growth strategy. I am sure that everyone in the Chamber wants growth, but does he accept that by definition, growth will not deal with the structural deficit, which is what is there, even when the economy returns to growth. How would he deal with that deficit?

[Chris Leslie]

I disagree. I think it is possible to deal with the structural and cyclical deficits through pro-growth strategy. The fact that the Government’s so-called independent Office for Budget Responsibility has downgraded the growth forecast as a result of measures in the Budget shows that even it has had to admit that there are dangers in their strategy. I hope that they are absolutely confident about this—they seem to be—although I detect that a few Government Members may have doubts and questions in the evening when they are looking at the measures that will be introduced. I hope that they will look at them line by line, and not just hold their noses and vote regardless, especially Liberal Democrat Members.