Railways: Swansea to Paddington

Debate between Lord Anderson of Swansea and Lord Wigley

Wednesday 22nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords—

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords—

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Anderson of Swansea and Lord Wigley

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, it is my pleasure to move my Amendment 7, which is that all matters regarding the electoral arrangements are subject to agreement by the National Assembly. The key phrase is,

“subject to agreement … before implementation”.

I am not personally against the following amendment, which will shortly be spoken to by my noble friend Lord Wigley, but I submit to him that my amendment is more likely to be acceptable than his, although I think that we are working to the same end.

Essentially, my proposition is clear and simple. It is as clear, pure and simple as the last amendment, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe. In my judgment it is absurd that we should be laying down the rules relating to the electoral arrangements irrespective of the views of the National Assembly. Its Members are the experts in the field. They have the experience of fighting elections for the Assembly in Wales and the decision should be left to them. Even local authorities have a degree of discretion, which is currently denied to the Assembly. Without this, the arrangements are in the spirit of high to low—“We in Westminster and Whitehall know best”, almost as if in colonial times, when the constitutional arrangements were handed down like tablets of stone to the grateful people. Surely we are dealing with a mature and maturing democracy in Wales, where the representatives of the people should decide for themselves. However, if leaving it by Order in Council wholly within the responsibility of the Assembly is not acceptable, the next best thing—perhaps the more realistic alternative—is the one proposed in this amendment. Do we really think that we know best? Have we no trust in the Assembly? I leave this question to the Minister: can it be reasonable that we do not involve the Assembly, not as a matter of generosity but as a matter of law, in decisions on its own electoral arrangements?

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I support the spirit in which the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, has moved his amendment and am very supportive of its thrust. Amendment 8 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas transfers all responsibility for Welsh general elections to the Welsh Assembly. The provisions in it and Amendment 10 would mean that the Welsh Government could determine the electoral system used for elections to the National Assembly, as well as having control over the administration of those elections. It would certainly be my hope that, if the Welsh Assembly was granted such powers, it would vote to move towards a more proportional method of electing representatives. Plaid Cymru’s policy has long been for a form of proportional representation. I say that looking at Benches opposite and hope that they would concur warmly with that.

Any decisions relating to the electoral system would of course be up to the National Assembly for Wales to make. It would surely be a common-sense move to allow the Assembly to be in charge of its own elections, just as this Parliament is in charge of its own elections. It would once again strengthen the accountability of the institution and I hope that the Government will see the merits of this amendment.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Anderson of Swansea and Lord Wigley

Friday 31st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, my amendment relates to Gibraltar. Many of us in this House have a special concern for Gibraltar and therefore wish to ensure that it has a separate count. We all have a special responsibility for Gibraltar. That is seen, for example, in the fact that Gibraltar is represented by one of the constituencies of the UK in the European Parliament. It has a very proud history, not least in the Second World War.

Coming here today, I was musing how the people of Gibraltar, which is relatively small—perhaps not much larger than a ward in my own former constituency—none the less represent so much of the Mediterranean. The current Chief Minister, Fabian Picardo, has a good Mediterranean name; Sir Joshua Hassan showed that there was a Jewish community in Gibraltar; Peter Caruana, the former Chief Minister, has a good Maltese name; and even Albert Poggio, who is the excellent representative of Gibraltar in this country, has an Italian name. There is currently a total linkage of the people of Gibraltar with many Mediterranean countries.

The relevance to Gibraltar of the European Union is in part because of the dispute with Spain. Most if not all of us would agree that Spain has been extremely unwise in seeking not to build up relations with Gibraltar. There have been the disputes leading to endless delays at the border, which harm Spanish nationals who work in Gibraltar. Equally, there has been the dispute over the territorial waters. These matters are litigated in Brussels. The people of Gibraltar quite properly criticise some of what goes on in the European Union in respect of the Spanish judge who I think recently presided over a judgment to the detriment of Gibraltar. We criticise sometimes the fact that, although Britain should represent the interests of Gibraltar in Brussels, sometimes the UK representative has perhaps failed to notice matters that are relevant to those people.

On one thing, though, the people of Gibraltar are clear: it is in their interest to have the UK there in the EU, fighting the Gibraltar cause and putting up the objections to any particularly nationalist and populist sentiments put forward by the Spanish. It is therefore most important that the Gibraltese, the people of the Rock, are able to show their opinion and to do so clearly, and that Gibraltar is established as a separate electoral unit with a separate result. It could be an interesting point if the people of the Rock were to say yes, because they recognised the importance of their relationship with the European Union through the UK, and yet the UK were to turn its back on the European Union and therefore, in effect, on Gibraltar. However, that is for another day. Both in chairing the Foreign Affairs Committee and in other fora, I have long stood shoulder to shoulder with the people of Gibraltar. I am happy to do so again to ensure that there is a separate count, separately recorded. I beg to move.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am sorry that I missed the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. His brevity in speaking today is no doubt recognised by all across the Chamber. Any accusations that he could be filibustering would be absolute nonsense. However, the question raised about Gibraltar is slightly different. I understand the position that my noble friend Lord Anderson comes from, but the main thrust of my support for the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Foulkes—and my amendment, Amendment 67 —is the need to ensure that the people of Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England know exactly where they stand on this matter.

As I indicated before in a more general debate, if there is no publication of the results for each nation, there will be speculation—and speculation could be much more damaging than facing up to the reality of whatever the result may be. I believe that, because of the importance of the economic question, to which I referred earlier, there will be a yes vote in Wales—but whatever the outcome, the people of Wales and, indeed, the people of Scotland, Northern Ireland and England, have a right to know where they stand. The overall result will no doubt be taken on a United Kingdom basis and would be the aggregation of those votes, but at least people would know where they stood, and for that reason, I support the amendment.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Anderson of Swansea and Lord Wigley

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, Amendment 8 has appeared rather more quickly than noble Lords perhaps expected. I make it clear from the outset that Amendment 8 is purely a probing amendment and, if noble Lords have not realised the significance of the date in the amendment—

“The referendum shall not be held before 1 October 2014”—

it is to ensure that the referendum does not take place before the outcome of the referendum on Scottish independence has been determined.

Clearly, if the Scottish people were to vote for independence, there would be a significant impact on the Bill. As far as I can see, no provision has been made in the Bill to deal with that matter, to which we shall no doubt return in debate on other amendments which impinge on that question. We do not know what the outcome of the referendum in Scotland will be. Therefore, in passing legislation to deal with the period through to the end of 2017, which is not only after the Scottish referendum but, if there were a yes vote, also after the fulfilment of independence for Scotland, it would mean that the United Kingdom was a very different entity from the one it is now. That must surely be taken on board in the Bill.

I am not opposed to a referendum in all circumstances. I have no doubt that there are circumstances when a referendum is needed. If a referendum is going to be meaningful, clearly the definition of the units—of the people who are taking part—has to be clear; it has to be determined. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, who is in charge of the Bill, will be able to tell the House how it would respond to the possibility of a yes vote in Scotland.

It may well be that the opinion polls at present say that it is likely to be a no vote, and I think we all recognise that. However, I think we also recognise that a week is a long time in politics. One cannot rule out the possibility of a yes vote. Therefore, we need to have some provision that deals with it. There are implications in terms of the voting and negotiations that may need to take place between the United Kingdom and the European Union for any new deal that may be the basis of a referendum in 2017, and that has to be thought through. I get the impression that the drafters of the Bill just have not thought of the implications of the Scottish referendum result. For that reason, I beg to move.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and I go back a long way. We are of different parties and we come from different parts of Wales, but on this as on most things he speaks eminent sense. There is an elephant in the room, the elephant being the Scottish referendum. We do not know what the result of that referendum will be but, if it be for independence, it will clearly have profound implications for this Bill generally and for a number of facets of the Bill. Therefore, I am pleased to follow his wise words.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the two amendments in my name are supported by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, and my noble friend Lord Wigley. They are reporting amendments, and I shall give the details of them in a moment. I am aware of the time, and I am also aware that the substance of these matters comes up elsewhere, so I can be very brief.

I turn to what the amendments are about. The first of these reporting amendments says that there shall be a report for approval on recommendations made by an independent commission that shall be established for the purpose of considering and reporting on the UK’s alternatives to membership of the EU.

My broad submission is this: the real choice for our people is not in or out but in or what? They could be myriad alternatives that our people are concerned about as to what they would prefer to have in place of the EU. I will not go into detail on this because I propose to do so on Amendments 33 to 39 in my name, which would give in the referendum itself the opportunity for the electorate to say, “Well, if we wish to leave the EU, we would prefer to be like Norway; we would prefer to be like Switzerland; we would prefer to have a closer relationship with the United States, and perhaps with Canada, in a North American free trade association”. It may be that the electorate will say, “We want to develop a closer relationship with the Commonwealth”. What I am saying is this: if we are serious about ascertaining the views of the people, we should give them a series of alternatives. In so doing, we, with this independent commission, should also set out the advantages and disadvantages of each possible course. That is the reporting as it refers to Amendment 25.

Amendment 26 is again a reporting amendment, saying that no order should be made until the Secretary of State has reported to Parliament for its approval on the negotiations between the UK and other EU member states concerning our relationship with the EU. We covered this to some extent in the previous debates, and I look forward to resuming this debate on Report. However, at some stage there clearly has to be a report from the negotiators and the Prime Minister on whether the criteria that he has set have or have not been achieved.

The noble Baroness, who admitted to speaking only for the Conservative Party, set out various criteria which it would want to be achieved. I suspect she needs to go much further than that so that we have various targets against which we can measure whether the negotiators have succeeded in achieving their aims. We know the position in various international matters where you retreat and call it victory. I suspect there is a great deal of mistrust not only on the part of the electorate in politicians generally but among Conservative Party members in respect of their Prime Minister—as we know the Prime Minister travels fairly lightly on Europe, as he does on most things. It is clear that the referendum Bill would not be necessary if the Conservative Party had total trust in its Prime Minister. The whole point of trying to tie him down to get what the Germans call a “book with seven seals”—that is, to have a copper-bottomed guarantee—is that they do not trust the word of the Prime Minister that he wants to have a referendum and wants to have it after the next election. They are trying to tie him down. That is the essence of this.

Therefore the second amendment is a reporting amendment and states that, whatever may be the negotiating stance or the criteria, benchmarks and targets which the Prime Minister has set, he will report to Parliament for its approval of the negotiations and say where we stand.

These are two brief amendments, both on reporting. I hope that it will objectively be agreed by Members of your Lordships’ House that the alternatives to our membership of the European Union are very important, and if the public are to be seriously consulted—I shall come on to this in later amendments so shall not go on extensively now—they will need to have a very clear idea of the advantages and disadvantages of the various alternatives as well as a negotiating report, as in the second amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I have put my name to both amendments in this group. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for moving them briefly. I shall speak very briefly indeed, as he indicated that he will want to come back to certain aspects of these issues on Report.

It is vital that we nail the idea now that there must be clarity with regard to the alternatives to membership before the referendum takes place. The worst possible outcome of a referendum would be if it were voted on in a nihilistic atmosphere and with a nihilistic attitude and people were just saying no to something without having the faintest idea what was going to happen. If that were to be the case, and we were to pull out of the European Union on that basis, and if things then started to unravel, there would be immense bitterness, and I am not sure where that would take us politically. There needs to be a mechanism for spelling out what the alternatives are, and that mechanism has to go beyond the daily or weekly press. There needs to be some objective assessment of those alternatives, and people have to know what those assessments add up to. Therefore, in whatever way we try adding this to the Bill, I hope that that issue, that dimension, will be taken on board.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, there is another amendment on the Order Paper, Amendment 72—which we are not within miles of reaching and will obviously not reach in the next 50 minutes—which covers very much this ground. It is down in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, and would basically put a requirement on the Government to state before the referendum took place what alternative relationship Britain should seek to have with the European Union without Britain in it, if there were a no vote. I agree absolutely with what the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Anderson, said. It is essential that before the electorate cast their vote they should be told what the consequences in terms of Britain’s relationship with the truncated European Union would be in the event of a no vote. It would be too late to say what the Government are going to do after the vote; they must say so up front, before the vote.

However, that will come up in the later amendment as well. At the moment, the important thing is to note that this is a serious issue which will have to be addressed on Report, or in Committee when we get to Amendment 72. I hope that by the time we get there, the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, refreshed by a certain period of repose after his exertions today, will see the sense of this as one of the amendments which basically strengthens the Bill. It does not weaken it; it does not make a referendum less likely; it does not prejudge the outcome of the referendum or anything like that. It just means that if and when the referendum comes, there will be before the British people a clear idea of what the alternative is if, in their majority, they vote no.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, my name is added to some, but not all, of these amendments. It appears that two important aspects are covered in different ways. The first is whether a threshold should be required for the outcome to have credibility. There are arguments both ways on that, and there are dangers. I do not need to remind my noble friend Lord Foulkes that in 1979 Scotland voted by a majority in favour of having a Scottish Parliament—or Assembly, as it was then called—with 33% voting yes and 31% voting no. However, because of the 40% threshold rule, it did not happen. My noble friend will be very aware of the consternation that that caused, with the feeling that a majority had been in favour.

It is very important to set a threshold at a level that is acceptable and which does not appear to be loaded one way or another. I suppose that a 25% threshold is an absolute minimum, but I should be very interested in hearing the response of the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, on this. Depending on what is said between now and Report, we will no doubt need to come back to refine these thoughts further.

The other element built into these amendments—which, grouped together, bring in different aspects—is the question of the results from the four nations of the United Kingdom. The noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, touched on this in an earlier debate. I put it to the Committee that there is a strong argument for each of the four constituent nations of the United Kingdom to know how they have voted. If they do not, assumptions will be made, and those assumptions may be the cause of much more political rancour than dealing with the reality of the situation. If Scotland votes yes and England votes no and the English vote dominates the rest of the United Kingdom, there will undoubtedly be pressures in Scotland, as my noble friend Lord Foulkes rightly said, to reopen the whole question of the independence referendum, assuming that it is not carried the first time round. We know what happened in Quebec when there was a rerun of a referendum: it came very much closer than had been the case on the first occasion. Therefore, these issues need to be thought about very carefully.

I come from a different viewpoint from virtually everybody else in the House with regard to the Scottish referendum but I recognise that, whichever point of view you come from, the outcome needs to be logical, transparent and acceptable, and I hope that we will work towards that in the context of these amendments.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

I want to make a few points. First, I think that my noble friend Lord Foulkes is following a pipe dream if he thinks that there will be a definitive decision. I concede that if there were a substantial majority one way or the other, that would be a definitive decision, but we should remember not just the precedent of the Cunningham amendment but the precedent of 1975, when there was a very clear decision by the electorate to remain within the EEC. However, people such as Tony Benn and others were very quick not to accept the result and they lobbied against it.

In US politics there is a story—probably apocryphal —of a decision which was made by a drunken member of the public who, a minute or so before the polls closed, staggered into a polling station and fell on to a voting machine. His vote was the decisive one on that occasion. That sounds rather absurd but there was a film on that same theme in a key state in a presidential election.

Given the importance of the decision that the electorate will be making in the referendum, if it goes ahead, it is important that we seriously consider a threshold, not at this stage but on Report.

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[Lord Wigley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, for his comments. I acknowledge immediately that during his time in office progress was made with regard to the Welsh language, and incidentally the late Wyn Roberts also played a significant part in that. However, the point is that in most legislation of this sort these words would be in a schedule, but there is no schedule here. We have the English version in the Bill, which is why there is an amendment to have a Welsh version as well. That would at least get the balance right. It may well be that between now and Report an amendment needs to be drafted saying that both should be treated with equality in this Chamber as they would be in Wales.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, my name also appears on the amendments. I have one little concern regarding my noble friend Lord Foulkes’s comments: he said that the Gaelic version should appear only in the parts of Scotland that speak Gaelic. If one were to transpose that to Wales, some might argue that in Monmouthshire, for example, where very little Welsh is spoken, at least on the eastern side in the border area, there should be a different ballot paper. In my judgment, if there is to be a Gaelic version it should be throughout Scotland, otherwise there will be enormous problems regarding where to draw the line. To follow up what the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, said, there is, happily, a consensus in Wales in respect of the language. We have managed to avoid the language divisions that have rent Belgium over the years, and that in large part is because of the work by the noble Lord but particularly of Lord Roberts of Conwy. The Welsh Language Act and the equal validity principle are a memoriam to the work that he did.

Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013

Debate between Lord Anderson of Swansea and Lord Wigley

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am not sure whether this is the first order that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has brought to the Committee as part of her responsibilities for Wales—I know she has done it for Northern Ireland before—but I cannot imagine that she was waiting in awe for the excitement of this order when she took up her responsibilities in the Wales Office.

To pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, it really is beyond belief that we need to apply ourselves to this sort of detail at Westminster. If devolution means anything, surely this sort of detail should be handled down the road in Cardiff. I understand that they had a committee that looked at it for all of 30 seconds and that those who have looked at it up here have no comments to make on it. It is all detail that, no doubt, was appropriate for consultation, but it is beyond belief that a consultation on something like this should take three years. If a consultation is to be meaningful, one would imagine that all the interests would have been taken on board, including those of people who run shops.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The consultation did not take three years; that was the period following the end of the consultation.

[Lord Wigley]

I understand fully that it took about four months to receive comments from the consultees and then three years to digest what came back. If it is taking that long, surely interests such as those of shopkeepers should be taken on board. If bus lanes have an impact on anyone, it is on shopkeepers. There can be serious problems for people who need to stop and pick up their purchases.

Let me pick up the point about finance. We are told that this is self-financing. Do we therefore assume that those involved are keeping some of the money arising from the fines that are imposed? If so, who gets the money? Is it the local authority or the National Assembly? If the money is not adequate for the costs of running the new system, who pays the difference? Is it the local authority? Who pays for the appeals, for which no doubt there will be a cost? At a time when there is a tremendous squeeze on local authorities, I would have thought that the last thing they want is additional costs.

We are told that Welsh Ministers can extend the range of contraventions and are involved in the mechanics in a pretty fundamental way. Therefore, at an appropriate time—I realise that this goes beyond the scope of what we are debating today—should we not consider transferring this matter lock, stock and barrel, so that it can be handled in Cardiff without taking up our time in this Chamber?