Health and Care Bill

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Motions N and N1. I fully support the Government’s Motion N; it delivers the same outcome as the cross-party amendment supported by your Lordships’ House and received cross-party support from the other place last week. I am grateful to the Health Secretary and my noble friend the Minister for their engagement on this issue, and to the officials and lawyers in the department for their assistance in drafting.

Motion N makes the provision of access to telemedical early medical abortion permanent. It is supported by the vast majority of medical professionals, vulnerable women’s groups and by women themselves. Following the largest ever abortion study, the service was shown to be safe, effective and compassionate.

I cannot support my noble friend’s Motion N1 for two reasons. First, it was debated in full in the other place, including substantive discussions on whether under-18s should be included. MPs voted in support of this service in its entirety, without requiring any changes. Your Lordships’ House also supported making this service permanent. Both Houses are in agreement, and I do not believe we should reopen an already considered and agreed position.

Secondly, I cannot support it for safeguarding reasons. It is absolutely crucial that we protect young people—I am sure all noble Lords agree on that—which is why the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the DHSC and abortion providers have already agreed to produce a set of best practice standards on safeguarding and abortion care for young people. I appreciate the Minister reassuring us on this; it is how clinical guidelines should be developed. It is standard professional activity for medical royal colleges and does not warrant any additional legislation.

If Motion N1 is agreed, as a result of the inequitable provision, young women will be more likely to have poorer access to and experience of abortion care. It would mean that young women who are physically unable to make it to a clinic, as a result of a health condition, or who live in a very rural area, have no access to transport or are at risk of violence and abuse, will have no legal way to access abortion services in England and Wales. They would be forced either to access illegal pills online or to continue with their unwanted pregnancies.

I will address a couple of the points that have been raised. I also have anecdotes about how this has helped women and girls, but I do not believe it is helpful to share individual cases—we should listen to the experts on this—but the poor girl in the terrible case raised by my noble friend Lady Eaton was actually seen in a clinic, so my noble friend’s amendment would not have helped. On the point raised by my noble friend Lady Verma, of course we want to avoid sex-selective abortions, but this goes up to only nine weeks and six days, and it is not possible to find out the sex of your baby until after then. That would not be possible in early telemedical abortion.

Children must be protected. I appreciate and agree with my noble friend Lady Eaton’s desire to do this. However, as my noble friend the Minister has set out, this should be done through clinical guidelines and safeguarding best practice. I am pleased there will not be a vote on this, as I could not support it.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I made my substantive points when we debated this on Report, so I will not be tedious in repeating all those arguments about the nature of abortion, why I feel there should be a more thorough consideration of the way the law works in Britain today and why there have been 9 million abortions—one every three minutes. That does not suggest a lack of access to abortion in this country. But I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, said to us about the lack of safeguards in the amendment that we passed, against the wishes of Health Ministers, during the tail end of the Report stage consideration of the Bill.

If the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, was right that there had been substantive discussion, I would feel easier about this, but she will agree that there was no discussion of this at Second Reading or in Committee here, and there was no discussion of it in another place. When this was voted on in another place, there was a relatively close majority at the end of a very short debate—215 votes to 188. This demonstrates that this question is not settled.

If one winds back the clock to 1967, only 29 Members of the House of Commons voted against the Abortion Act 1967. That demonstrates that not only is this not settled but there are deep concerns about the way that this public policy has been enacted. That is why I pleaded, on Report, that rather than making policy on the hoof, it would be far better if—despite our differences of opinion, some of them fundamental, on the substantive issue—at some point, there is a review of the legislation, in which we can at least talk to one another, in a civilised way, about the best approach.

That brings me to this amendment, which was introduced with such sensitivity and compassion by the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, and which deals with safeguarding issues. I will not repeat the quotation that was just given to us by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, but it comes from a royal college. The royal colleges may be divided about this too—I do not dispute that—but that is exactly the sort of thing that should be laid before a commission of inquiry or a Select Committee of this House to examine the workings of the legislation.

We have heard the quotation about the safeguarding, well-being and physical needs of children from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, but I was also struck by what a designated doctor for child safeguarding said in a briefing which many of us have been sent by the National Network of Designated Healthcare Professionals for Safeguarding Children. Dr Helen Daley says:

“The considered expert position of the NNDHP is that all children (i.e. those under 18) and looked after individuals under the age of 25, should be seen face-to-face when applying to take both sets of abortion pills at home so as to prevent coercion, child sexual exploitation and abuse, and so that clinical assessments can be made to check the risk of an inadvertent mid- or late-trimester abortion.”


I note what the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said about specific individual cases. I do not know about the individual cases, other than that one was cited, and one is enough. It struck me, as a parent and someone who has worked with children with special needs, some of whom had significant emotional problems, to think how it would be if, in a home abortion, someone was to abort a late-trimester baby and the children in that household saw what happened. I think that would remain with them for the rest of their lives and it could have a deeply distressing and traumatic effect on them. That is why we should listen to Dr Helen Daley when she says

“We have very real concerns about the harm”


that this amendment to the Bill

“(which would allow girls to take abortion pills at home without a prior face-to-face consultation for any early abortion) will do to children.”

There is one other point, which was not referred to in our early debates. There is evidence about the physical effects on women. For me, this is not a choice between the unborn child and the woman—both lives matter. One in 17 women, or 20 a day, who had taken at least one abortion pill at home in 2020 needed hospital treatment for side-effects. This evidence was provided through a freedom of information request by the previous global director of clinics development at Marie Stopes International. There are significant risks.

I plead with your Lordships: when we make laws on issues such as this, let us always be respectful of each other’s opinions, attitudes, beliefs and principles, and listen to each other carefully, which we are doing in this House tonight; bluntly, I think we are a very good example to others about how this debate should be conducted. When the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, talks about the risks of, for instance, sex-selection abortions, we must take that seriously, because there have been examples of it and we know to what it can lead; we have seen that in other jurisdictions and countries. When the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, tells us there could be risks to children over safeguarding, we must take that seriously. I promised to be brief and will now sit down.

Tigray Conflict

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Tuesday 24th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Private Notice Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and in so doing, I declare my interests as the vice chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Eritrea and as a patron of the Coalition for Genocide Response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK is deeply concerned by ongoing violence between federal and regional forces in the Tigray region of Ethiopia. The Foreign Secretary spoke to Prime Minister Abiy on 10 November to emphasise the need to protect civilians and allow humanitarian access. He also urged de-escalation of the violence and swift moves to political dialogue. We remain in contact with the Ethiopians, the region and our partners in the international community to achieve these goals.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in thanking the Minister for that reply, I know that she will have seen the reports I sent her about the threatened impending assault on the Tigrayan capital of Mekelle, and attacks on refugee camps—both are war crimes—along with the horrific violence against women and children, which one report suggests may be on the edge of genocide. Given that the Ethiopians say that they will “show no mercy” to Mekelle, with 500,000 in imminent danger, what will we do to fulfil our duties under the genocide convention to prevent, to protect and to punish? What urgent steps are we taking through the United Kingdom envoy for the Horn and Red Sea, with our allies in the Gulf, through the African Union and the United Nations to avert yet more deaths, carnage and instability, and more refugees?

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for sharing the information he has received, which is among many concerning reports we have seen. Reports of an imminent push on to the city of Mekelle, with time-limited threats, are a very serious concern. We have been consistent in our messaging that civilians must be protected and humanitarian access granted. Given the continued conflict, and as a complement to the efforts of the region to press for mediation, we will continue to press these messages with all relevant international partners, including at the UN Security Council, where the issue is due to be discussed imminently.

Gender-based Violence

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]]

I am afraid that I will have to get back to the right reverend Prelate in writing on that issue, as I will need to follow it up with the relevant department, but I will ensure that I provide her with a full answer.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I have been able to send the Minister details of a case involving a young girl called Arzoo Raja, 13 years of age, whose parents I spoke to at some length last week. She was abducted, forcibly converted and forcibly married in Pakistan, in a case similar to that of Leah Sharibu in Nigeria. What are the Government able to do to build up legal capacity in such countries, so that these cases can be challenged in the courts, and what are we doing to promote the Declaration of Humanity, in which the department has been involved?

[Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am afraid that I have not seen the case the noble Lord refers to, but I will ensure that I look into the detail of it. Of course, it is important that we support freedom of religion and belief in all countries around the world, and we will ensure that we continue to do so.

Nagorno-Karabakh: Genocide Emergency Alert

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Monday 2nd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]]

My Lords, we agree with my noble friend that Turkey needs to be part of the solution. The Prime Minister discussed the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh with President Erdoğan on 28 September. We have had ongoing conversations with Turkey. Most recently our Foreign Secretary spoke to Turkey’s Foreign Minister. Turkey is a key NATO ally and sits on the front line of some of the most difficult and serious challenges we face. We encourage all external actors not to escalate the situation and to become involved in bringing about a peaceful solution.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has reminded us that we are signatories to the 1948 convention on the crime of genocide that places a duty on all its signatories to prevent, protect and punish. My noble friend Lady Cox reminded us that a maternity hospital has been bombed in Nagorno-Karabakh by Azeri forces. That is a war crime. What action are we taking to ensure that those responsible for war crimes are held to account? Important though it is to bring people back around the table, it must surely be a central objective of Her Majesty’s Government that those who are responsible for war crimes and genocide are appropriately held to account.

[Baroness Sugg (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the UK is fully committed to the principle that there must be no impunity for the most serious international crimes. We continue to voice our support for this principle and continue to support the work of International Criminal Court and the international tribunals to tackle impunity for these crimes. All allegations of war crimes or other atrocities must be investigated, prosecuted and, if appropriate, punished. We completely condemn any attack on civilians.

Nagorno-Karabakh

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Wednesday 7th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the roots of this conflict are complex and predate the collapse of the Soviet Union. Apportioning blame is not the solution. I also completely agree about the importance of media freedom. We are concerned about disinformation in this conflict, and we are concerned about reports of lack of access to the internet. We will do all we can to facilitate access to the region so that we can understand what is happening.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, notwithstanding what the noble Baroness has just said about lessons from the past, has she considered, as I was asked to do while visiting Nagorno-Karabakh, how the indigenous, overwhelmingly Armenian community see this violence as an extension of the Armenian genocide, which claimed 1.5 million lives with international indifference leading to Hitler’s infamous remark, “Who now remembers the Armenians?” In the light of the current attacks on civilians, will we be joining Canada in suspending arms export permits to Turkey? Will we press, as my noble friend Lady Cox called for, for the prosecution of those responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity in Karabakh?

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, we continue to monitor developments in the region closely. We consider all our export applications against a strict assessment framework. We will keep all licences under careful and continual review. We comply with the OSCE arms embargo relating to the Nagorno-Karabakh region, which is considered as part of our export licensing process, and we will continue to work closely with Canada. We have issued a number of join statements with Canada, and we will work closely with all like-minded parties to bring an end to this conflict.

Rohingya Refugees in Bangladesh

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Thursday 13th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I agree completely with my noble friend on the importance of ensuring a strong relationship between the UK and Bangladesh. Extreme poverty has declined there from nearly 35% to less than 15%, and Bangladesh is graduating from least-developed country status. However, it is one of the most climate-vulnerable and densely populated countries in the world. We are the second-biggest donor to the Rohingya crisis. We are ensuring that we provide support and expertise to tackle poverty and climate shocks across the country.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that, with an unprecedented and staggering 70 million people displaced or refugees globally, driven out by conflict or persecution—1 million of whom are Rohingya fleeing ethnic cleansing—this requires a systematic and long-term global campaign to hold those responsible to account? Following the International Court of Justice’s recent preliminary ruling requiring Burma to protect Rohingya, what have we said to Burma’s Government about implementing the steps required of them, ending impunity for crimes against humanity and reinstating the Rohingya’s rights of citizenship?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we welcome the International Court of Justice’s consideration of whether Myanmar has breached the genocide convention. We have consistently expressed our profound concern at the terrible events in Rakhine state. We welcome the ICJ’s decision on provisional measures. The court was clear that Myanmar must do more to protect the Rohingya. We have urged Myanmar to comply with the measures in full and are exploring with partners how best to ensure that it implements the decision of the ICJ, including through our place at the UN Security Council.

Sahel: Climate Change

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I completely agree with the noble Lord on the importance of having a focus on this area. The Sahel is marked by chronic poverty, instability, high levels of gender inequality, and is one of the world’s regions most vulnerable to climate change. We are stepping up our presence there already. It is in all our interests that we bring together the UK’s world-class development, diplomacy and defence expertise to help to build a safer, healthier and more prosperous future. Should I have the opportunity, I will certainly raise that with the new Secretary of State.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise the link between the desertification of areas such as Darfur in Sudan and in Nigeria, where herders and pastoralists are often therefore in conflict because of the reduction in land available for farming, and the growth of groups such as the Fulani militias in Nigeria and the Janjaweed in Darfur? Is this not an issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, is right to point us towards, since it directly relates to the levels of conflict in countries where we want to see genuine development?

[Baroness Sugg]

I agree with the noble Lord. As herders, fishing communities and farmers compete over the dwindling fertile lands, we are, sadly, seeing more intercommunal clashes. We need to address that if we are to achieve peace. As I said, 80% of people are dependent on pastoral and subsistent agriculture, so we are looking carefully at how we can support people to thrive in a region that is so affected by climate change and using our expertise in the UK in technology and scientific innovations, such as early warning systems for shocks. If we are to see an end to conflict we need to ensure that we address the issues of climate change.

Pakistan: Aid for Persecuted Minorities

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Thursday 6th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

In asking my Question I should mention that I co-chair the All-Party Parliamentary Group for the Pakistani Minorities.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, in the past 10 years, the UK has given £2.6 billion in aid to Pakistan, targeted towards the poorest and most excluded, who are often from minorities. We promote minority rights from grass roots to the highest levels of government. UK aid to Pakistan is declining but continues to focus on the poorest. Since 2011, UK aid has supported primary education for 10 million children, skills training for almost 250,000 people, and microfinance loans for 6.6 million people.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I thank the Minister for that reply and welcome her to her new responsibilities. Is she able to intervene on behalf of Shagufta Kauser, an illiterate woman from one of Pakistan’s beleaguered minorities, who now occupies Asia Bibi’s cell in Multan and who, like her, has been sentenced to death for allegedly sending blasphemous texts in English? When two children are forced to watch a lynch mob of 1,200 burn alive their parents; when no one is brought to justice for the murder of Shahbaz Bhatti, Pakistan’s Minister for Minorities; when 1,000 Hindu and Christian girls are forcibly married and converted; and when minorities are ghettoised into squalid colonies, which I have visited, and forced to clean latrines and sweep streets, is it not time that DfID re-examined its policy of refusing to specifically direct any of the £383,000 that, on average, we give every single day to Pakistan in aid for the alleviation of the suffering and destitution of these desperate minorities?

[Baroness Sugg]

I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s long-standing involvement in this important issue. We remain deeply concerned by the misuse of blasphemy laws and the treatment of minority religious communities in Pakistan. We regularly raise these concerns with the Government of Pakistan at a senior level. I share the noble Lord’s desire to ensure that our international aid funding reaches those who most need it. Currently, many Pakistanis are reluctant to declare themselves members of religious minorities because of fear of discrimination. We are working to ensure that we understand where our aid is going. I can reassure the noble Lord that we continually keep our programmes under review, and where we can better prioritise resources we will do so.

Railway Services: The Pennines

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Thursday 17th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am afraid I have not seen the letter to which the noble Lord refers. This is a huge project—nearly £3 billion to upgrade the route. Of course, there will be disruption alongside that, but we are working hard to make sure that we get the balance right in ensuring that, while we are improving reliability, there are alternative services. We recently completed upgrade works on the Calder Valley line to ensure that there is an alternative route, and we will set out further plans in due course.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, further north there is already a railway line linking Clitheroe in Lancashire to Hellifield, which is in turned linked to the Skipton-Carlisle line, that would open up enormous passenger opportunities. That line was closed in 1964 for passenger services, but has continued to be used for freight. Representations have been made to the Government by Lancashire local authorities, including Ribble Valley, asking for the restoration of passenger services on that line. In comparison with things such as HS2, this would call for very little public money to be spent and would link towns in Lancashire with places in Yorkshire. It would be of enormous economic value in the region, and I hope the Government will consider it seriously.

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. We have a new approach to rail enhancements—the rail network enhancements pipeline—which is following lessons learned from previous commitments. We are studying each of these cases carefully. I am not sure about the specific line to which the noble Lord refers, but I will certainly follow that up and write to him.

Railways Investment: North of England

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Baroness Sugg

Monday 29th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am sorry that that is the noble Lord’s experience. Between 2015 and 2020, the Government will have spent more than £13 billion improving and modernising northern transport, which is a record level of investment. However, I agree that passengers in the north have suffered unacceptable disruption and delay in recent times. We continue closely to monitor performance and, where operators are at fault, we will not hesitate to act. We have appointed Richard George, who previously served as the chairman of the board of many franchises, to oversee implementation and changes to improve the current situation in the north. On devolution of powers, we set up Transport for the North, which co-manages the Northern and TransPennine Express franchises alongside the Department for Transport as part of the Rail North Partnership, to ensure that decisions are taken in the north.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, even before the bungled timetable was implemented on Northern services, it had become abundantly clear that the project was in deep trouble? Up to 310 trains each day were then cancelled, the regulator concluding that nobody took charge. Why was it that nobody took charge? Who will be held responsible for those failures, and how will she build capacity in the north of England to ensure that this does not occur again?