United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I regret that I was unable to take part at Second Reading, but that does not mean that I am not deeply concerned—[Inaudible.]

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

We seem to have a technical problem.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

[Inaudible]—needed at all, certainly at this stage. The earlier parts of the Bill, which deal with the establishment of new rules to maintain the internal market now that we have left the EU, have received much less publicity than Part 5. However, these parts are just as constitutionally significant because, under the cover of Brexit, the Government are attempting to slip through the unravelling of devolution. They have claimed that this Bill will increase the powers of the devolved Administrations, which is akin to President Trump claiming that the virus is waning in the USA: the facts demonstrate its falsity, as the clauses in this Bill demonstrate multiple ways in which it undermines current devolved powers.

The UK’s internal market appears to function perfectly well at the moment. The barriers cited by the Government as the reason for this Bill are hypothetical and unlikely to materialise because they are clearly against the interests of the devolved Administrations. There is no clamour to diverge from existing standards set by the EU because they are both high and universally recognised. Therefore, taking the Bill at face value, it seeks to solve a problem that does not exist, but that judgment is rather too kind because the details betray the Government’s real purpose.

Until now, devolution in the UK has functioned under the umbrella of EU legislation. Most of the fundamental devolved powers have operated in that way, and EU regulation has been accepted with noticeably little argument because it operates on such a large scale that there is little perception of party-political bias. The new arrangements set out in this Bill will be very different. Obviously, England will dominate, come what may, but the Government are not content with relying on size alone. This Bill steals all the remaining cards from the devolved nations.

We have a ragged devolution settlement—lopsided, confused, and already under huge strain. Leaving the EU has destabilised it further. Because there is no proper devolution in England, UK Government Ministers are effectively hybrid Ministers. One minute they are acting as Ministers for England and the next they are UK Ministers. Indeed, in some cases, such as agriculture, the Secretary of State is largely just the Minister for England, so it is essential that there is a strong dispute resolution mechanism: there will be problems if that fell back on the Secretary of State alone. This Bill itself will become a protected enactment, which devolved Administrations cannot repeal or modify. However, the UK Parliament will, in practice, be able to override the market access principles when legislating for England. Hence it will have an inherently asymmetrical effect.

Looking at how the market access principles will be enforced, we see a much tighter definition than allowed under EU law. It narrows the territorial scope of devolved legislation, which will no longer be able to apply to all activity within that nation. The Senedd could still vote to ban a wide range of single-use plastic items, for example, but that ban could no longer be applied to products entering Wales from the rest of the UK, nor could it ban sales of those goods. Such a ban would therefore be pretty meaningless. Amendment 4 applies the Government’s own market access principles, but with a framework of respect for the decisions and views of the devolved nations. With all due respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, the UK is not a supermarket. The nations of the UK have individual and proud heritages and identities.

The Government’s regulatory impact assessment recognises that the broad application of the market access principles will limit the ability of the devolved Administrations to introduce distinct approaches to environmental and social policy, which will of course undermine the fundamental purpose of devolution. In the interests of centralisation of power, the Government are attacking innovation. The freedom provided by devolution has encouraged new approaches, such as plastic bag pricing, in Wales and minimum alcohol unit pricing in Scotland and Wales. There is an insidious pattern in many of the controls in the Bill. It allows the status quo to stand in some instances, but removes the right of devolved Administrations to change regulations in the future. This looks like the path to a stagnating economy.

Amendment 4 seeks to strengthen the hand of the devolved Administrations so that their voice can be heard. It replaces the very weak duty to consult with a much stronger principle of consent. That would force the Government to return to a normal approach of partnership and respect. The Bill scythes its way through devolved powers, and the amendment attempts to tackle some of that. The Government have lately reminded me of a drunk in a bar, who swaggers around aggressively challenging the other customers over imagined insults and picking unnecessary fights. This really is an unnecessary fight with the devolved Administrations. Devolution was always incomplete and uneven, and UK identity has been stretched pretty thin recently. Throughout the Bill there is a thread seeking to reverse devolution and recentralise the state, and this Government simply must not be allowed to get away with it.

Students’ Return to Universities

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 1st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, has run into a technical problem so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I declare as interest as Chancellor of Cardiff University. I am very proud of what that university has done to sustain both face-to-face and online teaching. Cardiff is one of the universities offering testing: ours is asymptomatic testing, which will enable up to 1,000 staff and students per day to be tested. It is one of the latest generation of much more accurate tests, using the sophisticated technology that underlies the Government’s Moonshot ambition. What financial support do the Government plan to give to universities to increase the availability of their tests, because it costs millions to set this up, and to allow them to be opened up to the wider public? Will the Government fast-track the accreditation for such university laboratories and link them into the national network?

Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 29th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

In accordance with the Belfast agreement there is a role for the Dublin Government in strand 2 and strand 3 issues, and that was the way in which the recent Stormont House talks were conducted.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, coming from Wales, my noble friend will know very well that there is quite a difficult balance between the devolved regions on the one hand having their own say and taking their own responsibility, and on the other having a proper relationship with Westminster and London. However, is she aware that, despite these difficulties, the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland has complained that it is easier for them to get a meeting with President Obama than with our Prime Minister? Will she convey to the Prime Minister’s Office that that is not the best way to show a full engagement with the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Randerson]

I am sure that the Prime Minister’s Office will take note of my noble friend’s comments. However, it is absolutely clear that the Prime Minister was fully engaged in the Stormont House process and went to Northern Ireland to push the process along; indeed, a successful conclusion was reached very soon after that visit. I therefore reject the idea that the Prime Minister has not been engaged.

Northern Ireland: On-the-Runs Scheme

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for repeating the Answer. I recall some elements of this case because Mr O’Connor disappeared shortly after the IMC was formed and we reported as much as we knew at that time in the very first report of the IMC. What puzzles me a little at this stage is, the mistake having been made and having been reported on some time ago, was the coronial service not informed so that it would have known that bringing forward an inquest at this stage was not going to go anywhere? If it was informed, it seems puzzling. If it was not informed by the PSNI, surely that is a serious gap that adds insult to injury in terms of the disadvantage that the family have been put at, not to mention the coronial service itself.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend refers to the interlinking between the PSNI and the coroners service. It is important to bear in mind the independence of the PSNI. It must be free to pursue investigations. It is also important to bear in mind that this inquest has been ongoing for a number of years. Beyond that, it is not appropriate for me to comment on an individual case.

Northern Ireland: Talks Process

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Monday 15th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement, to which I listened carefully. However, given that the Statement says that the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach judged that there was insufficient consensus for a broadly based agreement and that there is only one week in which to find any agreement, one is led to the conclusion that the best to be hoped for is for something to be cobbled together that could take us to the other side of the Westminster election, when the numbers of people elected, the balance of parties and coalitions and so on may be different.

However, I am struck by the fact that the Statement says:

“If there is no agreement before Christmas”—

a week away—

“we will not get this close”,

not for a few weeks but,

“for months or even years”.

One might take from that that there was an expectation on the part of the Government that we might be moving towards direct rule. Can the Minister confirm that before there could be any movement towards direct rule, there would have to be an election for a new Assembly in Northern Ireland, to give newly elected Members the opportunity to get into negotiations and to try to form a Government?

Secondly, can she confirm that if that were not achieved and there was direct rule, that there would be implementation—“press ahead” was the phrase used—of welfare reform, and, in the words of the Statement, the implementation of,

“a serious efficiency programme to make long-term savings”?

Can she confirm, too, that the Irish Government would have to be involved in all the cross-border bodies that are already in existence and—without doubt, given that the security situation would be likely to suffer—cross-border co-operation on security and justice issues as well?

It is important not just to pose these questions but to get an answer, because I have the sense that on both sides in Northern Ireland there is a failure to recognise the process that would ensue from lack of agreement, and the consequences for people from both sides in terms of welfare reform, efficiency savings and cross-border co-operation between the British and Irish Governments.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend makes some important points about the process to be followed. I start by saying that the agreement needs to be genuine, and not something cobbled together, because that would fall apart. My noble friend is right to point out that the Statement clearly says that the window of opportunity will close in the new year. The realities of the time in the electoral cycle make it difficult. If the Executive were to collapse, the first and immediate result of that would be an election, and only if we were unable to re-establish an Executive would it be possible to think of direct rule. There is no legislation in place for the re-imposition of direct rule. If direct rule were, very regrettably, the eventual outcome, it would have to be in accordance with the terms of the Belfast agreement. My noble friend is right to point out that there is a role for the Irish Government in those terms.

Hallett Review

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 17th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement from my noble friend and identify these Benches with the concern for the victims who have been spoken about by noble Lords on both sides of the House. However, we must do more than simply speak about our concern for the victims. We must act in a way that shows real concern.

A number of things have been revealed in this report—it is more than 270 pages long, so it is difficult to get a full assessment of it in such a time. Already it seems to me that some of the assessments are mistaken, including some of those identified in the Secretary of State’s comments. For example, she said that,

“the bulk of the report deals with decisions made by the previous government in respect of its handling of the political process”.

It seems to me that the bulk of the report is not about the decisions but about the process that led to the decisions. It is quite clear that the process was shambolic and was a whole approach to government from the very top. Decisions were not taken in a formal and proper way. I know that to have been the case during the process itself.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, about not taking it to pieces and certainly not behaving retrospectively. However, some of us made criticisms at the time about the way in which it was being handled. Subsequently, many of the problems that we continue to experience are because of the unwise ways of reaching decisions about prisoners, weapons, dealing with the past and issues of that kind. It is quite clear that time after time Lady Justice Hallett identifies the failure to keep any list of pardons and the failure to keep any account of the decisions that were made. I think that this Government, as well as any future, never mind past Government, must learn about process. It is not sufficient to have this kind of sofa government, or any emblem of it, particularly when one is dealing with matters that are serious life and death issues and matters of law.

We have to go back and revisit those things to learn from them—not just to be critical, but to learn that we should not behave in that way again. I am afraid that the evidence is that the lesson has not yet been learnt. The Secretary of State is now saying, quite properly, that she will make sure that she informs Ministers in the devolved Government. That means that they were not properly informed before. We had a Bill yesterday where we were looking at legislation about arrangements for the NCA, and so on. It was quite clear that there was no discussion at an early stage with the Government of the Republic of Ireland and the Justice Minister there. I know that because I raised it with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, and the reply was almost, “What a shocking suggestion”. The fact is that we should have been doing those negotiations.

Of course we should not be unhelpfully critical, but we are here to hold government to account and to try to improve the processes. It is quite clear that some of those processes were seriously mistaken. As an emblem of that, I will put a specific question to my noble friend. Given that these letters gave reassurance, and were meant to give reassurance, to individuals that at the time of their issue they were not wanted for questioning by the PSNI or other forces, and given that we are told that the PSNI and others have not closed the cases, will the PSNI be formally withdrawing letters, or otherwise formally notifying individuals concerned if and when intelligence, information or evidence comes to hand that changes their status back to being wanted for questioning? I ask because if there is not a proper, formal scheme of withdrawal instigated, arrests and subsequent court cases could well be endangered again, as in the Downey case. I ask my noble friend for assurance on that, not because it is the only question but because it is symbolic of some of the failings of the past.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend asked about the royal prerogative of mercy and the failure to keep lists. In fact the royal prerogative of mercy is not used only in relation to terrorism cases. It is used very much more widely and it was used much more frequently in the past. Legislation has changed and enables the justice system now to deal with issues such as early release from prison in a different manner. It has simply not been the custom to keep lists of this nature, and I would say that in regard to the Northern Ireland Office investigations, it is not the case that the problem related entirely to the time of the peace settlement and the time of devolution. It predates and goes well back into the last century.

My noble friend referred to poor administration and organisation. The report by Lady Justice Hallett is very clear about the areas of poor administration. The key point she makes is that it was a system that evolved and was not created. The Government acknowledge that as time went on and the scheme developed and grew, failure to take the opportunity to review, update or risk assess the scheme added to the problems of the scheme.

My noble friend asked whether the Government were thinking of withdrawing the letters because of the dangers of impairing prosecution. Lady Justice Hallett recommended that the Northern Ireland Office should seek legal advice in conjunction with the police and prosecuting authorities on what to do in cases where errors may have been made. That process is already under way. The Police Service of Northern Ireland is reviewing all the cases. Lady Justice Hallett makes clear that that review will be thorough and will take years rather than months. However, she made clear that the judgment in the Downey case stood on its own facts; it was a judgment in the first instance which should not be applied to any other examples, and was not binding in any other cases.

I think my noble friend did us all a great service in drawing our attention again to the victims in this, for whose families today will not be easy. It is important to remember the names of those who died: Lieutenant Anthony Daly, Trooper Simon Tipper, Lance Corporal Jeffrey Vernon Young and Squadron Quartermaster Corporal Major Roy Bright. It is important that, as we have these discussions here today, we hold them in our minds and thoughts.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

Noble Lords will probably be relieved to hear that my comments on this amendment will be rather briefer than they were on the previous one on the Civil Service Commissioners because there are considerable parallels between the two.

Serious concerns were expressed in our earlier debates about the possibility of devolving responsibility for the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. These concerns were in many respects analogous to those that were outlined concerning the Civil Service Commissioners. In this case, too, we believe that those concerns deserve a very serious response. We have revised our approach in a similar way, so, as I said, I will make my comments as brief as is in accordance with being clear—I hope. As with the Civil Service Commissioners, I outlined a possible approach on Report. We have taken that approach substantially further in the amendments we have now tabled.

To recap, responsibility for appointments to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is currently an excepted matter, as are the commission’s functions. Clause 11 moves these responsibilities from the “excepted” to the “reserved” category. The Bill does not, however, propose the devolution of these responsibilities at this time. In previous debates, concerns were expressed in respect of the commission’s independence should it ultimately be devolved. Your Lordships regard this as being of great importance. We share those concerns and are clear that they must be addressed before devolution. I indicated previously that any future devolution of responsibility for the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission would be subject to public consultation. That remains the case.

These amendments require the Secretary of State to lay a report in Parliament at least three months prior to bringing any order on the devolution of responsibilities in respect of the Human Rights Commission. As I have set out in relation to previous amendments, that is intended to ensure that there is adequate time for debate and for noble Lords to influence the approach being taken in Belfast before a devolution order is laid. As before, we undertake to facilitate a debate at that point. I hope your Lordships will agree that this is a reasonable approach to ensure proper consideration and scrutiny.

These amendments would require that the Secretary of State’s report should set out the effect, in her view, that such an order would have on the commission’s independence—which is of cardinal importance to its work. I recognise the emphasis that the commission places on its compliance with international best practice, currently embodied in the Paris and Belgrade principles. My noble friend Lord Alderdice referred to this in speaking to his amendment on Report. To reflect these concerns, this amendment would also require the Secretary of State to set out in her report the effect, in her view, of devolution on the commission’s compliance with internationally accepted principles in respect of national human rights institutions.

An important issue bearing on the independence of the commission, and dealt with in the principles, is the relationship of the commission and the Northern Ireland Assembly. These amendments would therefore require the Secretary of State in her report also to address the effect of devolution on that relationship. I hope noble Lords will feel we have reflected their concerns expressed here in debate and are able to support this amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I again welcome the amendments brought forward by my noble friend the Minister. I accept what she said about this device or resolution being similar to that in the previous question on the Civil Service Commissioners. However, the matter at issue here is very different and one of much more substantial importance. Indeed, the Minister will recall that at Second Reading this issue was one of two that I identified as being absolutely critical. In Committee, I spoke against the question that the clause should stand part of the Bill. On Report, I came back with an amendment on the question and I am very grateful to my noble friend the Secretary of State and her officials for being prepared to engage on the question.

I do not want to repeat what I said before but I point out the signal importance of this issue and its difference from the previous one. Right back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, there was pressure in Northern Ireland for a Human Rights Commission. In 1973, when the legislation was passed, a Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights was established. That was not sufficient but it was the best that could be achieved at that particular time. It produced some very worthwhile reports, some of which were acted upon in part and some more fully. Some very distinguished colleagues, not least my predecessor as leader of the Alliance Party, Sir Oliver Napier, was a chairman of the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights. Eventually, we moved on. We had a Human Rights Commission for Northern Ireland. The point is that this is not something that came in with the Good Friday agreement. It did not arise lately. There was absolutely critical demand and pressure for it from the 1960s and onwards. It continues to be of signal importance.

In her amendment, my noble friend has very helpfully identified a similar procedure to the previous issue. The Secretary of State would, at least three months in advance, bring forward a report identifying three very important issues: the independence of the Human Rights Commission, its relationship with the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the international commitments and responsibilities of Her Majesty’s Government. That is extremely good. She has also said, again very helpfully, that in the event that your Lordships’ House wanted to debate such a report, it would be given an opportunity by the Government to do that, and that the content of that debate would be taken seriously in the construction of the draft legislation. That is all extremely helpful and very welcome.

However, I feel strongly about the significance of this issue. If the Government did not bring forward a satisfactory report or set of proposals, this is of such significance that it is the kind of thing that one would be prepared to vote down. Not many things come forward here in terms of Orders in Council where your Lordships’ House is called on to use what we might describe as the politically nuclear option. This matter of the Human Rights Commission is of such importance that a Government—not just this one; it is likely that a subsequent Government might find themselves in this position—should not be under any illusion that if this matter were to come forward in an unsatisfactory way, they would face very serious opposition. I would be part of that opposition.

My noble friend has listened seriously to the concerns of the moment. The Government are clearly intent on making this facility available to the Northern Ireland Executive, whether or not they wish to take that up. The Minister has listened seriously and there has been a reasonable response. If all the things in this amendment are fulfilled as she described I would be more optimistic that a positive outcome might be possible. On that basis, I support her amendment.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

One our problems is that the Bill refers to the appointment of Civil Service Commissioners but the amendment goes beyond that because, as has been pointed out, this is a miscellaneous provisions Bill and things are put into it which add to its scope. In attempting to respond to the debate, we have all been discussing the qualities of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland—its free and open appointment and independence. We have therefore been ranging well beyond the point in the Bill. I am absolutely happy to organise a meeting with noble Lords who are concerned about this issue. It is essential to have a full discussion of any proposed amendment and ensure, as far as possible, that noble Lords are satisfied with the direction of the amendment.

As the noble Baroness has pointed out, there is an issue with timing. We have Third Reading next week so it is essential that we move on under a realistic timetable. The Government are absolutely committed to having public consultation before making fundamental changes to the appointment of the Civil Service Commissioners. We are not considering devolution of anything without wide public consultation and the agreement of the Assembly. We have a relatively limited period of time in which to produce an amendment that works within those parameters.

[Lord Alderdice]

I hesitate to intervene, but will my noble friend clarify something else? She talked about the importance of public consultation. I do not ask her to clarify this now, but perhaps she could do so in writing before the Bill’s next stage. The noble Baroness on the Opposition Front Bench said that culturally and socially there is a difference in the roles of the heads of the Civil Service departments in Northern Ireland. It is my recollection that there is a legal and constitutional difference from this part of the world as well. I recollect that the heads of Northern Ireland government departments are the civil servants, not the Ministers, which is a different position from that in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am not certain that all noble Lords are aware of the fact that it is a quite different position. Therefore, sensitivities that some of us have on these matters are all the more acute. I see my noble friend Lord Trimble nodding his head, and that ought to be confirmation sufficient for me, but I ask the Minister to confirm between now and the next stage precisely what is the position and, in particular, the status of heads of department as civil servants.

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend is correct in his general point, which is that the Civil Service in Northern Ireland has a different status from that in the rest of the country. The situation changed in 2010, when additional safeguards were introduced for the rest of the country.

I suggest that the best way in which I can deal with the detailed approach for which my noble friend is asking is to add it to the letter that I originally said that I would write to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, because it is very much in the same field and at the same level of detail. Then we can have the precise legal and historical background to the different situation that exists for the Civil Service in Northern Ireland. My noble friend makes an important point that we are looking historically at a different situation.

I draw your Lordships’ attention to my proposal of an amendment that the Secretary of State should bring forward a report. I think that our approach flags up the importance that your Lordships clearly attach to this very important question. Requiring a report will feed back into the consultation process that we have committed to undertake on the question of whether the responsibility should be devolved and in which circumstances. I hope that your Lordships will agree that such an amendment goes much further than the current clause. We will of course return to the detail of these amendments. It is obvious that we are going to have ongoing discussion on this and we will return to it at Third Reading. I hope that this will provide the noble Lord with the necessary assurances and that he will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Monday 3rd February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions on such an important topic. My noble friend Lord Alderdice emphasised the fundamental importance of human rights to the successful establishment of devolved government in Northern Ireland. I shall deal first with the bread-and-butter issues for the clause to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11 moves certain functions relating to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission from the excepted to the reserved category. Human rights issues have long been politically sensitive in Northern Ireland and at the time of the 1998 Act it was considered that functions relating to the new commission should remain in the Secretary of State’s hands. In the context of stable devolved institutions and of their development in the future, it may become desirable in due course to devolve responsibilities relating to the NIHRC if the Northern Ireland political parties so wish and if the Secretary of State considers that the Northern Ireland institutions are better placed than the Government to carry out the functions concerned. Clause 11 will mean that the appointment, functions, procedures and funding of the NIHRC will be reserved.

The Government made a commitment, in their response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report on the draft version of this Bill, to consult formally on any future devolution of responsibilities relating to the NIHRC and the other arm’s-length bodies discussed prior to any such devolution taking place. I reiterate that commitment today. We will also ensure that the NIHRC retains its responsibility for the scrutiny of non-devolved matters relating to Northern Ireland such as national security and terrorism in the event of any future devolution of responsibilities for the institution.

We understand the concerns that have been expressed both in this Committee and elsewhere that in the course of devolution the independence and freedom of action of the NIHRC should not be compromised. Indeed, not only do we understand those concerns, we fully share them. The independence of the commission is essential to its effectiveness. Its international standing is high and reflects that independence. We are well aware of the importance to the commission itself of the Belgrade and Paris principles, and it is essential that those are abided by. I also ask noble Lords to consider the benefits of devolution. I understand the concerns, but I ask them to consider the benefits. We believe that if it can be accomplished without compromise to the independence and important international standing of the commission, it would be a good thing. It would show that the institutions have matured. After all, in 2010, we accepted that they should take responsibility for sensitive matters such as policing and justice. It is not outrageous, therefore, to suggest that they should be capable of accommodating the independent oversight of institutions, as indeed they already do in various areas such as that of the police ombudsman, with due respect for propriety. So we do not believe that it is unthinkable that, at some point soon, the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland should take on responsibility for the NIHRC, but we are not asking for decisions at this point. All that the Bill does is to make it possible for such decisions to be reached and for effect to be given to them at a later date. If that happens, it will be after full consultation, because these issues need debate in Northern Ireland, of which we have had very little so far. Devolution would require votes in the Assembly by cross-community support and in both Houses here, so we shall certainly come back to these issues before any act of devolution.

I shall respond to some of the points made by noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, referred to the current lack of a chair of the commission. In fact the position will be advertised in the immediate future, so this temporary situation will be rectified in the near future. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the issue of timing. We shall come back to this, because it is the topic of an amendment later in these proceedings.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice asked who had initiated this, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made a similar point. The Government have had discussions with various Northern Ireland political parties about possible devolution of the commission. Officials have also discussed the matter with the chair and the chief executive of the commission, and I discussed it with them a couple of weeks ago. I emphasise that the Government believe that it is important above all that there is broad support across the community for devolution before it takes it place.

[Lord Alderdice]

My noble friend may be able to help me and the House with one question of information that I asked, on whether what we are being asked to do is devolution only to the Executive, or whether it would open the possibility of devolution to the Executive or to the Assembly.

[Baroness Randerson]

I apologise to my noble friend for omitting that. We are not looking at a precise model of devolution at this moment, because that, of course, is to be effected after consultation. However, we are well aware that devolution in Scotland has been to the Parliament and that that is a very successful model of devolution. It is sensible to follow successful models where they exist rather than to apply a different model. However, the details will be subject to further consultation and will become obvious after there has been full consultation.

Northern Ireland: Royal Residence

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 11th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the Royal Family is to be commended for its loyalty and for the work that it has done with Northern Ireland. We all remember the significance almost two years ago of the Queen’s handshake. The existence of Hillsborough Castle as a royal residence is guaranteed under the new arrangements, and full facilities for royal access will be there. It will be easy for members of the Royal Family to use the castle when they wish for their royal duties in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, given the extraordinary—indeed, transformational—effect of Her Majesty’s visit to the Republic of Ireland, and the fact that Hillsborough Castle is not only a royal residence but a place of enormous political significance on the island of Ireland because of the signing of the Anglo-Irish agreement and the importance of other negotiations, there is a real possibility of tourist potential not just from within Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, but that many people south of the border will be keen to come to Hillsborough Castle for its associations with Her Majesty and the Royal Family, as well as the important political associations that it also has?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the intention is that the new arrangements will make it easier to attract both domestic and foreign tourists to visit Hillsborough Castle. It is important to remember that as well as being a beautiful castle—a beautiful building with beautiful grounds—it has tremendous historic significance. It is important to remember that royal tourism alone is estimated to be worth £500 million a year to the United Kingdom. Therefore, it is important that we open up the castle as much as possible—and considerably more than has been possible in the past.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Alderdice and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 10th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for repeating the Statement and for the recognition in the Statement of the great courage of the Police Service of Northern Ireland: the police officer whom the dissident Republicans attempted to murder—actually, just around the corner from my own home—and the dozens of police officers who have been injured in the riots and disturbances created by loyalists.

However, despite what is said in the Statement about flags, do Her Majesty’s Government understand that this is not fundamentally about flags or flying the flag on designated days? Since the time when I was Speaker, starting in 1998, we had an understanding and agreement among all the political parties. The union flag would be flown only on designated days over Parliament Buildings. It was not an issue of contention at that time, or in the decade and a half since that time. This is about other issues. It is about a context being created by some political leaders for their own political interests. That is why I would like to pay particular tribute to the courage of Naomi Long, the honourable Member for Belfast East, and many other Alliance representatives and representatives of other parties who have been standing up for democracy and have been personally attacked and had their lives threatened for that courageous stand. I also pay tribute to the many ordinary people who have been terrified: cancer patients trying to go for treatment; business people trying to keep their businesses open; and ordinary people going about their business and trade who have been frightened and intimidated by what has been going on.

During the time when I was a member of the IMC, we were able regularly to brief the community in some detail about what was going on and who was doing it. That has not been the case. Despite the undertakings of the previous Secretary of State, Owen Paterson, that there would be six-monthly analyses of what has been going on, we are really not getting much detail—for example, of the activities of loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF. The noble Baroness has repeated that “the leadership” did not sanction this. That may be so, but is it the case that the leadership of the UVF in East Belfast has actually been involved in this? This is the kind of detailed question that some of us would like to explore and I fully recognise that the Floor of the House may not be the appropriate place for questions and answers. I ask my noble friend to encourage the Secretary of State to meet those Members of your Lordships’ House who are interested and concerned about Northern Ireland and who feel it is urgently important that we have a meeting with her in the near future to explore these things.

Finally, I ask the Government to recognise that the British and Irish Governments were the drivers of the peace process and without them there would not have been an agreement. Can they understand that they are also the guarantors of the settlement and therefore cannot back off and suppose that those who are there and sometimes have their own games to play will be trusted to deliver the peace that needs to be maintained?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments, particularly those on the courage of the PSNI. The Government fully appreciate that there are complex issues behind these protests and that it is about more than just flags in many cases, not least about issues of deprivation. Ironically, the more unrest there is in Northern Ireland, the less likelihood there will be of further economic investment, so it becomes a real problem.

The noble Lord referred to the Assembly agreement, with which he was intimately involved, on the flying of flags. I believe that Lisburn city hall uses a similar method. There are a variety of agreements on the flying of flags. However, these decisions must be made in Northern Ireland. They are devolved, democratic decisions to be made in Northern Ireland and cannot be made by the UK Government.

We have to keep repeating the importance of democracy in relation to Northern Ireland. Democracy must be our watchword. I will of course take the noble Lord’s words to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. It is important that your Lordships are fully involved and fully briefed where possible on issues relating to Northern Ireland. I will ensure that those comments are repeated to my right honourable friend.

Finally, the roles of the British Government and the Irish Government remain crucial in supporting and encouraging the Northern Ireland Executive but it would be counterproductive on many issues for the British Government to intervene on matters which are devolved and must remain devolved.