Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) Order 2010

Lord Ahmed Excerpts

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak today, but my noble friend Lady Kennedy raised a point that I would like to touch on. It relates to how other countries hold people. When I was Security Minister, I discovered—I shall not say to my horror, but to my surprise—that an awful lot of those countries have other mechanisms whereby people are held for unbelievably long periods. The mechanisms are very cleverly crafted so that they do not break any rules, but I found them quite horrifying. It is very dangerous to make those comparisons either within the Commonwealth or within Europe. I can think of one European country not far away that has been holding someone for just over five years in a very clever way so that it does not break these rules. I am very glad that we have not gone down that route. I am also very glad that we are debating this point, as our party believes very strongly in civil liberties and we look at things like this as being very important. We did all the time that I was Security Minister—three years. We need to be careful about comparisons. I do not think we have anything to be ashamed of at all in this country.

My other point relates to English law, common law and the wonderful history of this country. It is perfect for a case where you have a murdered body lying on the floor, you investigate that, you find someone who is guilty and you charge them. It is not good when all you have is lots of intelligence. We have found that that intelligence is very often very accurate, but it is not evidence. That makes these cases somewhat different.

The way the Government propose to go forward is eminently sensible. Looking at these issues across the board is very important, but let us not rush into something. We have a good record here. Yes, it seems very harsh, some very horrible things happened and there are a lot of people who mean to do us very great harm. We need to bear that in mind when we weigh all this in the balance.

[Lord Ahmed]

My Lords, in her opening speech, the Minister mentioned terrorism in Northern Ireland, Islamist terrorists and al-Qaeda Islamist terrorists. I am a little confused. Will she explain the difference between all these terrorists?

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I support the Minister with great pleasure because she has over many years now had a fine record of circumspect vigilance, if I could put it like that, in this field. In putting forward this order today, she is exhibiting that same quality of circumspect vigilance. In recent weeks, we have seen the broad outlines of a new government policy on terrorism. On the one hand we have seen a more liberal approach, with an attempt to remove irritations that communities feel with some aspects of policy, and on the other an attempt to draw a firm line with respect to extremist ideologues, symbolised by the action taken by the Home Secretary in the middle of last month over the visit of Zakir Naik. I wish the Government well with this subtle balancing project.

Some of the discussion that is now going on about the strong and realistic possibility that in some months’ time we will move from 28 days to 14 seems to be a little unrealistic and utopian. It is based to some degree—not for the first or last time—on a forced and false analogy with Northern Ireland. It is true that the internment policy, which was introduced in mid-1971, was a failure, but we must remember that, although it was phased out in the mid-1970s, terrorism went on for another 20 years and is not to this day fully extinguished in Northern Ireland. It is important not to have exaggerated expectations for the impact of any move from 28 to 14 days, because it is clear, as all serious practitioners acknowledge, that the issues of the illiberality or incipient authoritarianism, alleged or practical, of our modern state are not the ones that motivate those who involve themselves in terrorism.

There is a more complicated question about the broader communities that may or may not have what is called in Ireland a sneaking regard for terrorism. Here again, it is clearly the case that the Government must take a careful look at what the state does. However, the truth is that what modern states, even the most liberal and sophisticated, do in the face of terrorism is to a degree always clumsy. It is also the case that it is not quite as important in the evolution of communal attitudes as many believe. The tragedy of terrorist acts is that they force members of the community either to identify with them or, in an act of great moral courage, to say no to them. There is something polarising about these acts that forces communities into a position either of denial or—to use the Irish phrase again—of sneaking regard. Therefore, the fundamental thing has to be to stop terrorism, because those actions are the driver of the process, rather than the inevitable, clumsy and inadequate acts of the state. I guarantee that if we go to 14 days, within two or three years something else that the state is doing will be said to be inflaming communal sentiment. For those reasons of caution, I welcome the circumspect vigilance that characterises the approach to these matters of the noble Baroness and I am glad to support the order.