Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Main Page: Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative - Life peer)Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as an elected councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham. We do not have prayers at our council meetings. When looking at these amendments today it is worth reminding ourselves of the aim of the Bill—as has been made very clear by a number of noble Lords in their contributions today and in the Second Reading debate.
This is a passive Bill, which requires no one to do anything. It is permissive; it merely gives permission for councillors on parish and town councils and some combined authorities to do what they believed they were able to do in the first place. It brings them into line with the position on higher tiers of local government, namely districts, metropolitan councils, unitary councils, London boroughs and county councils. The Bill is needed because, although the Secretary of State was able, under his powers, to enable these higher tiers of local government to make the decision themselves, his powers did not extend to the lower levels of local government.
I have the greatest respect for all the noble Lords who have put their names to the amendments in this group. On many occasions in your Lordships’ House we have taken the same positions and been in the same Lobby. However, I contend that these amendments are not necessary.
Amendment 1 would remove the whole of the proposed new Section 138A and would effectively remove from the Bill the whole purpose of it being here in the first place. Amendments 2 and 5 would require there to be a two-thirds majority in favour of these proposals and for the decision to be reaffirmed every year at a meeting of the council. In my opinion, that goes too far and is not necessary. If the parish or other council concerned wants to avail itself of these powers, it would have to get agreement. A simple majority is perfectly acceptable in that regard. I agree entirely with the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in that respect.
Amendment 3 seeks to restrict what is allowed to only silent prayers. Silent prayers may be what the authority wants to do, which is perfectly acceptable—or some other act of worship or philosophical belief. But to restrict that would again undermine the permissive nature of the Bill, in that you can do what you want to do: it is your choice. The Bill is not prescriptive in any respect whatever.
Amendment 4, again, is not necessary. Look at the example here in your Lordships’ House: every day one of the right reverend Prelates—today it was the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester—starts our proceeding with Prayers. No one is forced to attend and it is the choice of individual Members whether they do. Those who choose not to attend wait outside until they are told by the doorkeepers that Prayers are over, at which point they come in and take their seats. No business is transacted whatever until Members have taken their seats. Do we really believe that that would not happen at meetings of local authorities? I do not accept that, by not participating in prayers, you would not be seen as a full member of the authority, as suggested by some noble Lords. Again, the amendment is not necessary as the Bill is drafted in such a way as to take account of what people themselves want to do. There is no pressure on anyone to do anything at all.
In conclusion, although I would not be affected by this particular group of amendments, I lived and worked for many years in the east Midlands and I attended the remembrance service that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester referred to. It is a very moving and respectful event for people of no faith and many faiths.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity to discuss both the broad intentions of the Bill—to give authorities the freedom to determine for themselves whether they wish to hold town hall prayers as part of official business—and some of its details, and, in those details, explain why we consider it a gentle and necessary measure.
This morning I woke up, as we all did—that is always an important part of the day. After doing that, I rather hoped that I might have had a bit of a lie-in, which means that I leave the house at about 8 am, rather than 6.30 am or 7 am. Being a father of three, with two children under the age of three—I know that those who are parents will share this experience—I was awoken at 5 am. One milk bottle followed another, after which, what did I do? I prayed, in my own Muslim way, in a moment of prayer and reflection.
I then travelled to the House, as all noble Lords did today, and arrived to be confronted by barriers and what have you. Sadly, there was an incident outside your Lordships’ House this morning. Nevertheless, I then came into your Lordships’ Chamber and prayed. I am grateful, as we all are, to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester for leading Prayers this morning. We started, as usual, with reflections on our duties, on what our country is about and on why we are here.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend but I would like an answer to the question that I posed to another noble Lord. Why cannot people who believe so strongly that prayers before a meeting can be helpful to them in their deliberations organise themselves separately so that they are not part of the official business but are organised by a voluntary group of councillors who, in this respect, would have nothing to do with the official business of the authority?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, nothing in the Bill would prevent that. This is about choice at a local level. As we have already heard, there are provisions for local authorities to have prayers or not have them. We have heard from two Members on both sides of the House who are, today, members of local authorities, neither of which has prayers. If a coercive practice were already in place, surely those two Members who have spoken—the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lady Eaton—would have said that their local authority needed to have prayers. Neither has prayers, which again shows the openness of what is being suggested. Indeed, all we are asking for here—and the Government support the Bill—is the opportunity for people to be given a choice. I know that that is not something that my noble friend objects to.
Perhaps I may turn to the amendments. One of the key objectives of the Bill is to give authorities, including, crucially, those authorities that cannot exercise the general power of competence, the freedom to include in their formal business prayers or other religious observance or observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, and other noble Lords that, for the purposes of the Bill, religion is not defined; rather, the Bill refers to,
“observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief”,
as other noble Lords have pointed out, and to “religious observance” as well. The definition is wide enough to embrace what might be described as mainstream religions but it also includes those with a sincerely held belief that is not conventional. Therefore, we consider that the Bill is inclusive. We have no desire—nor is it the intention of the Bill—to produce an exhaustive list of what is and is not to be considered a religion or, in this case, prayers.
On a lighter note, when I first joined your Lordships’ House, I came from the private sector. My right honourable friend Eric Pickles has been referred to. When I became a Government Whip, I was told that every Wednesday morning Eric held prayers. I thought, “This is novel. We’re going to turn up and have prayers with Eric”. However, it was a reflection of what we term “certain meetings”, and I think that those are reflections of our traditions. Perhaps the definition of prayer—which is very wide—is, as the noble Baroness suggested, one that allows local authorities to decide, if they so choose, to have a moment of reflection rather than a formal prayer service according to one religion or another.
We consider it right that authorities should have this freedom and right that they should be able to decide for themselves whether to include town hall prayers as part of official business. It is right because, as I have said, we live in a multifaith nation that respects all faiths and those who have none, and it is right because we should provide a local choice and, where a council wishes to hold town hall prayers as part of its official business, it should not be denied that freedom. I reassure noble Lords that the Bill does not compel town halls to adopt prayers. Nobody who does not wish to attend prayers as part of official business will be required to do so. Town halls may decide to have no prayers or to have a moment of reflection. That is part of the Bill, and the amendment seeks to remove that granting of freedom.
Amendment 2, coupled with Amendment 5, would introduce two new and, we believe, unnecessary restrictions, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pointed out, on the decision-making process in town halls. It is unnecessary because there is no need to require a two-thirds majority to enable a local authority to hold town hall prayers. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay ably described, this would mean that a minority might vote against prayers but still stop the council holding them as part of its official business. Do we want a minority stopping a majority from taking part in an item of business that nobody is compelled to take part in? That is exactly what the Bill is intended to put a stop to.
Nor is it necessary for a decision to include town hall prayers as part of official business to remain valid for only 12 months. The Government have worked hard to reduce red tape in councils, to remove burdens and to make town hall decision-making more transparent and accountable. This amendment would introduce, into a Bill that is about freedom to choose, a compulsion to revisit, year after year, a decision that has been taken and agreed. Councils are, of course, free to decide one way or the other on whether to include town hall prayers as part of its official business, and they are also free to reconsider their decision, but they should not be compelled to do so every 12 months.
I was interested to see the amendment that seeks to replace the Bill’s—if I may describe it as such—non-definition of town hall prayers with a definition of an act of worship. As I have already said, the Bill is carefully drafted to avoid the definition of prayer, religion or belief. The provision as drafted ensures that town halls are not limited to any particular act of worship or observance. This amendment may be intended to ensure that, through silence, no offence is caused. However, that would go against the Bill’s intent to recognise all faiths, and respect those with none, by compelling those who would otherwise vocalise their observance to remain silent. I worry that the amendment also goes against the transparency and accountability that we have worked so hard to ensure become part of town hall culture. I am also concerned that it seeks to silence those who would wish to make clear their belief.
Another amendment seeks to limit the time that the council may spend on an item of business—in this case, town hall payers or an observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief—to five minutes. I find that somewhat peculiar. I presume it is to ensure that town hall prayers do not take up too much valuable time. I have already mentioned transparency and accountability. We have ensured that the public can report on the proceedings of town hall meetings and I would imagine that the only measure of time deemed to be unreasonable for any item of council business is the length of time that the electorate consider unreasonable, no matter what the business. As it is, local councils determine themselves, generally in guidance, how long should be spent on different agenda items.
In conclusion, we should trust local authorities and councillors to serve the interests of the public to whom they are accountable, without the need for any steer about how long they should take over this or that item of business. We should trust councils and the electorate. This Bill is all about choice—the choice of whether to allow or not to allow—and that choice is best made by those who are elected at a local level to serve their local electorate. With these assurances, I again reiterate the Government’s support of this Bill. After we have heard from my noble friend, I hope that the noble Earl will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for his robust and totally convincing defence of a Bill that I had the honour to present to your Lordships’ House a couple of weeks ago. I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this interesting and stimulating debate over the past hour. Second Reading came at a rather awkward time on a Friday two weeks ago. Most of your Lordships had been exhausted by the overseas aid Bill and, other than myself, there was only one Back-Bench speaker, namely the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. I thanked him then and I thank him again now.
In effect, we have had a Second Reading debate over the last hour and I make no complaint about that. Amendment 1, moved by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, would remove the first part of the Bill and its whole underlying purpose. The noble Earl is rather fortunate that he is in your Lordships’ House and not in another place. I speak as one who, in another place, was a chairman of committees for 15 years and had to decide on amendments with the advice of clerks. In another place, Amendment 1 would have been considered a wrecking amendment and would not have been allowed. But I am glad that it has been allowed and that noble Lords in all parts of the House have had the opportunity to put their points of view.
I do not want to repeat what has been said either by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to whom I am very grateful, or my noble friend the Minister, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon. I just want to underline the essential purpose of this Bill. It is a wholly permissive Bill. No one is obliged to do anything. If a group of councillors or members of a local authority wish to begin their proceedings with prayers—be they Christian or of any other faith—a moment of reflection, or a thought for the day as happens in the Scottish Parliament, and a majority shares that point of view, that is how the said meeting can begin. If a different point of view is taken, it does not happen. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lady Eaton, that in the authorities on which they serve, prayers or a moment of silent reflection do not begin the day. However, heaving heard what my noble friend Lady Eaton said, clearly it would be a good thing if they did have a moment of silent reflection on her council. This is wholly permissive. It does not dictate anything to anyone.
I say to my noble friend Lord Avebury, for whom we all have great respect, that this is a gentle measure. It really is. He quoted at some length the aggrieved Muslim councillor on a Tory authority, although he named neither the councillor nor the authority. I do not criticise him for that and I do not doubt for a minute that every word of what he said was entirely true, but it certainly was not typical, as my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon made plain in his speech.
Baroness Flather
My Lords, we have heard how councillors go to functions such as celebrations of Diwali and Eid, which are organised by other faiths, and that is wonderful, but they do not have anything to do with the council. It is not the council that is facilitating such gatherings. It is not the council saying, “We will help you to organise your Diwali function”. That needs to be borne in mind. Facilitating or supporting religious functions usually means facilitating and supporting Christian festivals, not others. If that could be included, I would be much happier.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, again I thank noble Lords for our debate and I want to clarify again the Government’s support for the Bill as it stands. Just on the final point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, councils up and down the country provide great examples of supporting all faiths and none, and indeed of supporting faith festivals. That support is not only right, it is also welcome and should be encouraged. Down the road from me we have Tooting in the London Borough of Wandsworth, which some noble Lords may know well. Quite often, you will see celebrations and lights going on for Diwali or for Eid, and for other festivals of every religion, including Christmas. In the multifaith society in which we live, it is right that all of these are celebrated and respected. People of all faiths and none come together for these religious festivals. Indeed, the noble Baroness probably knows better than most Members of your Lordships’ House how they can bring communities together.
Baroness Flather
Very briefly, I have seen these festivals take place and I have attended them, but I am trying to point out that they are not supported by councils as such. They do not receive the council’s formal support and facilitation, nor are they given any help with money and so on.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
It is not often that I beg to disagree with the noble Baroness, but in many cases councils support the lights being put up and the closure of streets to allow them to be put up. We could take this down many paths, but I am sure that when the noble Baroness attends these events, she brings to them her glitter, glamour and expertise and that her presence is always most welcome.
Moving on to the specific amendments, let me be clear that, as I said in my earlier remarks, faith is part of what defines our nation today. Belief plays a part in all our communities. Respect for faith and belief and for those of all beliefs other than our own goes hand in hand with respect for those of no faith. That is the cornerstone of what defines the British character. Belief and faith in this nation are happily not locked behind the walls of churches, temples, mosques, gurdwaras or any other places of worship, and I celebrate that, as I am sure do all noble Lords. Faith is celebrated in our high streets and through the observance of prayers every day in this House, as several noble Lords pointed out in the previous group.
Faith extends into the fabric of our government as well. We support projects that are run by faith groups in our communities. The Near Neighbours programme is an excellent example of that. I can give a practical example of how it is not restrictive. The Near Neighbours programme comes under the auspices of the Church of England, but an excellent example can be found in Leicester where a Near Neighbours project celebrated Mitzvah Day, which is a Jewish festival. I can tell noble Lords that the director of that centre in Leicester is a Muslim. That is what defines our country: it is about bringing communities together, not dividing them. This is a working example of how it happens in practice.
It is right that authorities should be able to support, facilitate or be represented at religious events and events connected with a belief. It is right that, at services held on Remembrance Sunday throughout the nation, elected representatives should be there. It is right that if a council needs to close a road to ensure that such a service can take place safely, it can do so without challenge; it does not have the power to do so because it is a religious event. The same goes for scout parades and other ceremonies that mix a religious element with civic pride and community spirit. These are all examples of councils’ proactive support, and it is right that they should continue. We should be able to trust our councils and councillors to exercise their powers appropriately when supporting or facilitating such events, and we should trust the electorate to hold their councils to account on such decisions.
Amendments 6, 7 and 8 would remove the second fundamental purpose of the Bill and send a somewhat concerning message about the restrictions that might be placed on the freedom of councils to ensure properly and safely that communities are able to celebrate not just behind the walls of places of worship, but as communities within their communities and serving their communities.
Amendments 9 to 19 appear to seek to restrict the authorities that the Bill may extend to. My response to my noble friend Lord Avebury is a simple one: let those authorities and organisations decide for themselves. It is all about having a choice over whether they wish to take advantage of the freedoms that the Bill offers. There is no compulsion on them to do so and no requirement.
I reiterate that the Bill is about freedom and choice. To deny local councils that freedom to make that choice would be wrong. With those assurances, I hope that, after we have heard from my noble friend, the noble Lord will be minded to withdraw his amendment.