Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I appreciate the noble Lord’s efforts to do that. It was not specific to this group. There have been a number of examples which have been unwieldy, to say the least.

I turn to Amendments 260, 269 and 293 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor. They alter the backstop method to enable the regulator to trigger the resolution process. The current drafting permits only the competition organisers to trigger it. That is quite a profound change, if you think about it. To date, we have been saying that the regulator should step in only as a last resort if the competitions cannot reach an agreement among themselves. What we are saying here is that the regulator can step in—I guess, in theory even if the competition organisers have agreed—if it feels for some reason it is not quite happy with the agreement. That seems quite a shift away from the principles we were talking about earlier. Our concern would be that we are suddenly setting up a role for a quite muscular regulator which can interfere maybe not at breakfast, lunch and tea but quite a bit of the time, to say the least.

Amendment 276 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, states that the leagues can trigger the resolution process if there has been a change to revenue received by other leagues, as mentioned. Again, I think we could get into situations where a five-year deal has been put in place and a league is suddenly trying to reopen the deal. I am delighted that the Championship has a good Sky deal. Do we think that gives cause to reopen the deal? That would be a concern there. I am always a great believer that a deal is a deal is a deal. You live by that deal for that time and when it comes up again, that is the time to negotiate. Amendment 264 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, again makes provision for multiple competition organisers to trigger the backstop and mediation process.

In all of these, there is a general concern that instead of the backstop being the backstop, as it is called, it becomes almost the first stop and the first resort. It goes to the concern that noble Lords have mentioned many times that while we start with the principle of a light-touch regulator, very quickly we get into a scenario of a pretty heavy-touch, muscular regulator. That would be our concern.

Amendment 261 provides that competition organisers must obtain the regulator’s consent before entering into a distribution agreement. Again, this adds another level of complexity. If the competitions have agreed between them, why do they need to get the consent of the regulator? It goes far beyond the original intentions of the backstop per the Dame Tracey Crouch report, in which she referred to it as the nuclear option, and how that would be the only case it would come up in. Instead, through these amendments, we would be setting up a lot of situations in which it would be the first resort.

While I understand that the intentions of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, are noble—as ever—I feel that this is another circumstance of mission creep and unintended consequences, where we would end up with a very muscular regulator. Those are our concerns.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I am not very bothered by having a muscular regulator; I want an efficient one that gets things done and looks after the lower clubs. There is a disagreement between us that has been there all through this Committee.

I regard the series of amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, as a smorgasbord from which we should select something that is actually going to get us to have a look at what is going on. There are lots of options and I have put my name to one of them. Making sure that we get the regulator right and get money going down to preserve something we regard as good is the primary objective. It is not just to take money off the Premier League; it is to make sure that the structures below survive.

If the Government think these amendments are not the right way to progress, hearing why from the Minister would be sensible. Nobody is quite happy with the backstop power in the regulation structure at the moment. Everybody is a little bit upset about it. People who were happy are now not happy. The Premier League and EFL are having great fun not talking to each other or disagreeing. I have no real objection to a slightly more muscular approach. I do not think it is a light touch that is required; it should be efficient.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Markham (Con)]

This goes to the principle of the redistribution amendments in the group. We have had two debates on this; I hope this will be the hat trick, so to speak, because it is talking about the general principle of whether the regulator should be involved in the redistribution of revenue. This goes to the whole of Part 6—Clauses 56 to 60—and stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Parkinson.

As noble Lords have heard me say before, what it comes down to is that no other regulator—and I am still ready to stand corrected—is given powers to take money from one part of the system and give it to another. The FCA cannot take money from Barclays and give it to NatWest; Ofwat cannot take it from Severn Trent to go to Thames; Ofcom cannot move money from ITV to Channel 4. No other regulator can do that. It is unheard of. But that is what we are proposing here.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

That is the point of the Bill.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

No, I do not agree that is the point of the Bill. That is the fundamental difference. I would totally agree that there are certain protections about the European super league, about moving home grounds, as in the case of MK Dons, and about fit and proper owner tests. I would agree they are very good roles for a regulator to play. What I do not agree with is giving a regulator unparallelled power to take money from one part of the sector and give it to another.

What are we trying to do here? Is the English Football League impoverished? Does it have so little money it cannot run itself? We know the answer to that is no. It recently had a very good Sky deal. The Championship is the sixth-richest league in the world. That point has been made before. We are saying that Belgium, the Netherlands and Portugal, which are very good footballing nations, and all the other leagues in the world apart from the top six, all manage to live on less money than the Championship. But we are saying we need to fix that. That is what I do not understand. We are trying to say we will give unparallelled power to try to fix a situation that has had unparallelled success and makes the Championship the sixth-richest league in the world. We cannot argue that is because clubs do not have enough money to be viable in that. If that was the case in the Championship, how do the Portuguese league, the Belgian league, the Netherlands league and all the other leagues cope? This is not an area I believe the regulator should be intervening in. There is no market failure there.

What I have heard noble Lords speak about a lot is fairness or narrowing the gap. Well, I am sorry, but competition and sport are not about fairness, not about trying to narrow the gap or level down. We are not trying to equalise. The whole point of sport is that it is the most competitive thing out there. There is nothing more competitive than a game of sport. That is the whole lesson. It is not about trying to equalise. It is about winning and losing. What football has done is create that very successfully, with great fluidity. As I mentioned in the last debate, over half of clubs at some stage have succeeded in getting into the Premier League. This is something that is working. I do not see any evidence of market failure. So why are we asking the regulator to get involved in all this?

I truly believe we will endanger the whole game and the whole income. Noble Lords have heard me say before: let us maximise the size of the cake before we argue how we distribute it. I fear here that by trying to equalise and level down, all we will do is make the games less interesting, the league less competitive, which will mean fewer people watching, less TV rights money and the result being less money to distribute. That is why I do not believe this is the role of the regulator to take, and this is why I feel strongly that all those clauses that seek to give this unprecedented power should be removed.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, that might be the noble Lord’s interpretation, but, ultimately, it is government that makes law.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, just to be clear for the record, no law was passed in this instance. In a matter of days the clubs quickly withdrew from the competition because, as my noble friend mentioned, it went down like a lead balloon and fans were up in arms. The Government were nowhere near it. That was a perfect example of where the clubs and the fans regulated themselves.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lady Brady because, as has been mentioned, we have highlighted what is probably the number one issue. In all the time that we as noble Lords have spent here, we have shown that everyone cares. We are spending all this time here because we care about football massively and because what we are seeing here is, if noble Lords will excuse the pun, probably the biggest own goal. Everything behind the Bill is well intended but, if we get ourselves into a situation where we are suspended as an association, that will set football back decades. It is very real.

UEFA says that it is concerned and that:

“A Member Association may … be suspended if state authorities interfere … in such a significant way that … it may no longer be considered as fully responsible”.


My noble friend Lord Moynihan set out a long list of all those things. I want to set out one simple example. In the backstop, the regulator is given the power to decide on one league’s proposal over another league’s proposal. By definition, it is picking one side versus the other. That means, axiomatically, that those associations are no longer responsible for the decision; one of them must lose out, so one of them cannot be responsible for it. I cannot see any way in which that does not trigger what UEFA is saying—that the association is then no longer fully responsible because the decision has been taken out of its hands.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, is correct that examples from Italy and Spain show that this is fine—again, I am grateful for her contribution because nothing would make us happier than that being the case—but the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is right that it is binary at this point. The Minister can give us an absolute assurance so that this goes away. We all hope that this gets killed as an issue and that we need never mention it again but, unless the Minister can give that absolute assurance, we are in a world where this does not go away; it is going to come back and hang on because there is risk. I am sorry to put it as bluntly as that but, unless the Minister can give a 100% yes, the lingering danger here is such a big own goal, as I mentioned before. We really need to take this opportunity to kill this as a subject right now.

Again, I thank my noble friend Lady Brady for bringing this issue up; I really hope that the Minister can clear it up once and for all.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I just want to clarify my position. I did not want an absolute yes; I wanted a probable yes in the most civilised world. Going forward, that is what I was looking for, because we cannot let UEFA dictate our sovereign law to us, can we?

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I rise in support and to give an example of a similar unintended consequence. This is around the 3 pm kick-off on Saturday games and not allowing those to be televised. Again, that was set up exactly because Premier League games, if they were televised, would impact the attendance of the Championship League and other EFL games, because they knew that people would be watching those games instead. Within that regulatory framework, they had a view on the impact of how that one competition could impact the other competitions.

In a similar way, what the noble Lord, Lord Mann, is trying to do is to add, in proposed new paragraph (d), the impact on the women’s game and make sure that it is one of the considerations taken into account. Without it, you could be taking action around the men’s games in the competition that has those unintended consequences—so I support it.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Mann, is one of those that reflects real life. Anybody who has set up any club of any structure at any point knows that, if you are working between two bodies—I have seen it very much at junior level between rugby and cricket clubs—their interests seem suddenly to contradict each other under a new set of circumstances. I hope that the Minister will have a reassuring answer about the flexibility and ability of the regulator to intervene and try to find a way forward, because this is a real problem that will occur every now and again. It is probably not a structural thing, but “Is the flexibility there?” is a genuine question. I do not think any of us wants one of our regulators to suddenly start having a negative effect.

My Amendment 70 in this group basically says that support should be available for the women’s game. We have already covered this issue at some length, so I will not go much further than to say that we should not exclude giving the women’s game some help, because it is developing and going forward, and it is very important to the foreseeable future of developing elite-level sport in this country. We should address that by having another look and asking what the capacity is.

I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, is ready to speak to her amendment. Can we find out what flexibility there is and what the regulator is seen to be doing to handle these not quite down-the-line situations, where there are positive outcomes that we hope would be facilitated by it?

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

This is another example of the benefit of getting different brains on the committee. I absolutely hope that that would be the case, but it is probably a question for the Minister to answer. It is definitely logical.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I will make some brief comments. As I read the Bill, the Secretary of State providing some finance might be necessary, particularly in starting up. One of the things we do not want is an underresourced regulator blundering around making mistakes. A bad regulator is the worst outcome you can have, and that is usually because it lacks resources. When the Minister responds, can she give us some idea about when the power to give extra money would be used? This being done badly would be the worst result.

When the noble Lord, Lord Markham, talked about regulation, I am afraid I kept thinking about Fulham and Al Fayed. Are your internal control structures right? Are you doing something wrong? The damage that could be done by bad organisation immediately catches in the back of my throat. The regulation will not be straightforwardly financial; it is also about reporting structures, the care of your workforce, et cetera. Surely that should be covered by the Bill. These are questions about where you draw the line. If we have a regulator, does it regulate the whole thing? I think it has to; it cannot be just financial. If these are socially important structures—this is what we keep coming back to—we have to look at this question.

The noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has a point about the costs involved. I hope that we will get an answer when the Minister responds—at least a rough ballpark figure—because it will clarify what we will do. Those of us who approved the idea of a regulator think that it has to be properly resourced and that it has to cover the whole thing. I hope that the Minister can give us a little more guidance about what will happen and what the Government’s thinking is at this point, because they should have an answer by now.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 36 seems to be taking a sledgehammer to a nut. If you have some expertise and you are commentating, you may well be qualified to be in that role. There is a balance to be struck here. The Minister might ask, “What would be an unacceptable position within the media that would exclude you from this role?” If you are a senior executive with Sky, in the current situation, that would exclude you, but what if you happen to be a commentator, say, for a local paper dealing with your own local team, and possibly going on further? Would that exclude you? I would be interested to know if the Minister or the Government have an opinion on this, because there is clearly a balance here, as the noble Lord has just pointed out.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

This is exactly why we want to have these sorts of debates in Committee. Funnily enough, I put my name to this amendment. As noble Lords know, when I talk about media interests, I do so as a former director of a pay TV company. I was thinking about media interests less in relation to broadcasting and more that—the noble Lord, Lord Birt, will know this—when you are making sports media rights bids, all information is good information. You would then be party to a lot of privileged, and maybe even inside, information.

I agree that there is a balance to be struck, because these are exactly the sort of people you want involved in the regulator as well; but if they have a current role that involves them bidding for media sports rights, that would probably rule them offside—if you will excuse the pun. Again, that is exactly why we bring issues such as this to Committee to discuss.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Monday 2nd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly. I appreciate that with legislation it is always better to have what you want on the face of the Bill. The women’s game needs more attention here, as this is something that deals totally with the top five leagues of the men’s game. It is also true that with a little bit of will, we could amend it. However, we are sitting here thinking about what would be best for the development of women’s football. When the Minister comes to respond, I hope she will give us a better steer on what they regard as that future. It is a growing sport that has outstripped everybody’s idea 20 years ago of where it would be, and we need to discuss what is happening there. My gut instinct is to resist this for the women’s game, but my legislative experience says we should have a definition here.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I am scratching my head a bit on this. I am with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, in that I would like to see the women’s game included. However, I accept that there is a debate to be had around that, so there could be an argument for having that as part of secondary legislation. What I do not understand that there could be a debate about is whether the Premier League or the EFL should be included. I do not understand for one moment why you would not have that on the face of the Bill. I do not think any of us would debate for one second the thought of somehow having all these discussions and not including the Premier League or the EFL.

I will freely admit that I am not very well versed in this, but my understanding is that, if it was mentioned on the face of the Bill, that does something about the hybrid nature of the Bill and would mean there are greater consultations and involvements that we would have to have—maybe some other noble Lords can help me out here—with those bodies that are impacted by the Bill. If that is the case, and if it is absolutely obvious to everyone here that of course the Premier League and the EFL are going to be involved in this, and probably some others as well—maybe the noble Lord can help me with this in a minute—I think there are consequences from not having it on the face of the Bill. That means it is not getting the proper involvement that you would expect, having the Premier League and other impacted bodies such as the EFL as part of this.

Again, all of this is an education for me and I think my noble friend Lord Goodman might be about to stand up to help me on this. But, if not, maybe the Minister could answer that, because it seems so obvious to everyone here that of course it is going to include the Premier League and the EFL. Why would you not have that on the face of the Bill?

Paediatric Care: Wating Times

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Monday 16th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The role of the GP is clearly vital. That is what I was trying to get behind in the Start for Life initiative and clear early warning indicators. Clearly, that needs to go right through the development of a child at different key stages along the way. On digital treatments, I was at Boston children’s hospital last week, and it has early indicators for dyslexia—for example, looking at pattern recognition via an app, as it is not until children are older that they can see letters. Similarly, early signs of neurodiversity can be seen in the way that children play online on certain apps. I think we can add some of these digital support tools, but clearly the GP has a primary role.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, following on from his last comment, can the Minister give us some idea of what contact there has been on this with the Department for Education? We are supposed to talk to each other, but it becomes increasingly apparent that we do not do so.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I like to think that we have good contact on this, centred around, as I said, Start for Life, which is a £300 million joint programme between ourselves and the Department for Education. There are also other things; for example, noble Lords might remember me mentioning the Bradford pilot previously, where we are looking at children’s scores in test environments and using those where there may be early indicators of ADHD or other neurodiverse needs. There is quite a bit of work going on in this space. No doubt we could always work more closely, but there is some promising work being done.

Autism: Diagnosis Targets

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Yes, absolutely, we need to look at all areas where we can increase and expand supply, including use of the private sector. I am sure I will be asked about ADHD later on and the “Panorama” programme, which shows that there are some pitfalls in all that, but provided they are assessing according to the NICE guidelines, it clearly has to be sensible to use as much supply as possible.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, would the Minister agree that when you delay an assessment, you delay support from the entire structure of government, which we have said should be helping? What help is his department getting from the Department for Education and the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure people are getting to these assessments? If they cannot get the full assessment, can some intermediate steps be taken to ensure that people actually get the help they are entitled to?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

We are working closely with the Department for Education. The Bradford pilot scheme I mentioned takes the early years foundation stage profile scores of children. It knows that if you have a low score, you are far more likely to have autism. That triggers a multidisciplinary team to come in and inspect. That is a way that we can use that as an early warning indicator and then follow it up with volume. I hope that working very closely with the DfE in this space will be a real way forward.

Stroke Rehabilitation and Community Services

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

We are very much believers in the importance of social prescribing. I was at a reception just yesterday given by the Alliance of Sport, talking about the importance of active lifestyles for people’s mental health and recovery, and in the criminal justice system. It is something that we agree on the importance of. I will come back in more detail on the arts.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister expand upon the encouragement that the Government are giving to people in secondary services, to encourage people to fulfil the exercise programmes that are given to them by the experts? Without that encouragement from GPs and practice nurses, such programmes may seem very difficult and may not happen.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, that is a very important point. Two things have really struck me. When people are in hospital, they lose 10% of their muscle mass per week, which is clearly key in their ability to have an active lifestyle and look after themselves outside. At the same time, they need constant support and reminders to keep up that active lifestyle. It is very much at the front of our mind.

Physiotherapy: Rehabilitation Services

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Thursday 23rd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for bringing this to our attention; again, I believe that the advantage of these Questions is that they shine the spotlight on particular areas. As the survey pointed out, there are a lot of places which, for very understandable reasons, were swapped over to Covid uses during the pandemic and which now need to be brought back into physio use. That was one of the main recommendations from the society, and we will now write to all the NHS chief executives on the back of that. As the House will be aware, I am doing some work anyway to make more space available as part of the capital programme, so this is very much on my list to make sure that we expand that space and provision.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that physiotherapists do very little of their work in the actual appointment, and that it is the supervised exercise patterns they give patients afterwards that are probably the most important for all forms of rehabilitative structure? Bearing that in mind, what is the Department of Health doing to make sure that local government has facilities such as swimming pools and gyms that remain open under the financial squeeze?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord’s point; our estimate is that over half of all physiotherapy takes place outside the hospital environment. Clearly, all sorts of settings, including swimming pools and gyms, are vital for that. The work we have done with the Energy Bill and the caps has been a vital help to those leisure centres, and, thankfully, we are now starting to see bills come done and so these places are on a better financial footing.

Childhood Obesity

Debate between Lord Addington and Lord Markham

Thursday 17th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I agree that we—both as the Government and in general—need to be clear about what our recommended calorific intake is each day. Whether you choose to change that by eating one less meal, or however else you distribute your eating across the day, it is our role to help educate people on healthy eating. I agree that it is an issue and a big cost to both the health service and the economy. Our latest estimates are that it could cost the economy as much as £58 billion a year, so it is a critical message to get across.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, would the Minister enlighten us on the position of the BOGOF—buy one, get one free—deals? Are we going to remove the disincentive to people buying extra calories in the form of an extra portion? Or will the Government encourage people not to buy the first portion?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

As I think the noble Lord is aware, the position on BOGOF, so to speak, is that we have delayed those restrictions for a year. We have taken significant action in this space, most critically in supermarkets, by moving the promoted items away from tills and prominent aisle endings to remove this so-called pester power. We will very much keep this under review; when we see the impact, particularly of moving those items, we can look again at whether we will introduce more BOGOF restrictions.