High Speed Rail (London – West Midlands) Bill
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(10 years, 2 months ago)
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Lilian Greenwood
I thank the Minister for that response, particularly in relation to Euston.
It is to be hoped that we will see confirmation before the election that the additional provisions mechanism can be used to resolve some of the long-standing mitigation issues in Euston. We do not object to the principle of making changes to the Bill in this manner. After all, Parliament has already voted to remove the unsatisfactory link to HS1 that was included in the original wording of the Bill. It is likely that further refinements will be made as the Bill progresses through Parliament. However, it is important that these changes are seen not as a final draft but rather as proposals that must be subjected to full scrutiny and a proper consultation period. When there are objections—as there might be, given the changes to land requirements set out in the additional provisions—those petitioners must be heard on the same basis as those who have already started to appear before the Bill Committee. I look forward to further improvements to the scheme.
HS2 is the right project, and it can be improved further. On 1 October, we will mark the 50th anniversary of the first Shinkansen service. The date is perhaps unlikely to be celebrated in this country, except in specialist publications, but it will be a rather sobering reminder that high-speed trains were running abroad when many parts of the UK were still reliant on steam locomotives. High-speed rail is a proven technology, and it has been proven in this country. I recently saw for myself the benefits that HS1 has helped to bring to Kent, including the greatly improved journey times and the connections that allow fast services to radiate out from the core high-speed line. HS2 must similarly be fully integrated with the existing network, and that issue that will no doubt be revisited in David Higgins’s upcoming report.
HS2 should also be seen as an opportunity for utilising the skills gained through the Crossrail project, for training a new generation of highly skilled construction engineers and railway operators and for supporting the 120,000 jobs in the UK’s supply chain. To that end, we want to see a copy of the Government’s long-promised jobs and skills strategy for HS2.
Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)
The hon. Lady is making an extremely interesting speech. She called for HS2 to be part of an integrated system with the existing conventional railway line. Will she elaborate a little on how she sees that being possible?
High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(11 years ago)
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Lilian Greenwood
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will not be making any of the same mistakes as the Minister.
Finally, I take the opportunity to comment on amendment 23 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). He has rightly introduced this amendment to advance his constituency and the interests of the people living there, but I am concerned that we would be straying into territory that is covered by the Davies commission. The Labour Front-Bench team share the frustration of those who want to see from the commission an earlier resolution of the issue of airport capacity. It was we who called for those cross-party talks, to which the Government somewhat belatedly agreed. Nevertheless, we are bound into the process and there can be no justification for delaying preparation work on this important project until after the election, when that commission is due to report.
We want to see the new high-speed line built without further delay. The whole country can benefit from the improved capacity and connectivity that it will bring. I am happy to see it fully integrated into the wider network and to support amendment 17.
Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood). I confirm that I will support amendment 17. As she rightly said, it resulted from an idea put forward by the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman). If we are to have an integrated transport system, it is crucial that we do not link just high speed rail to the conventional lines, but take into account all the other forms of transportation to help people get from A to B.
It is particular pleasure to see the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), in his place and leading on the issue. It is an important issue and I know that he will do well on it, ably supported by officials at both the Department for Transport and High Speed 2.
I support amendment 17 and oppose amendment 18 and the amendments that flow from it. In many ways I have a feeling of déjà vu, because we had copious debates in Committee on the matter, and I never quite understood why so many people got certain parts of their apparel in such knots over the issue. It is clear from clause 1(2) that the Bill applies to
“railway lines connecting at least—
London,
Birmingham,
the East Midlands”
and so on. The whole point of the Bill and the purpose of getting it on to the statute book is to provide financing not of an actual project, but of the preparations for the project ad infinitum, because High Speed 2 need not necessarily stop at Leeds or Manchester. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport made that plain in October last year, when he announced that he was going to set up an inquiry into the feasibility of a third phase to Scotland.
The Bill will allow the expenditure of money for the preparation of not only phases 1 and 2, but potentially phase 3, if there is one, a spur to south Wales, if a business case were made that it was needed, to the south-west or—a possibility closer, I suspect, to the heart of the distinguished Chair of the Transport Committee, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman)—all the way into Liverpool. The Bill grants the Government permission to spend the money on those preparations.
The thought that there will not be full and proper consideration of the continuation of the project to Scotland at some point is bizarre. It is an obvious part of a viable rail network along the spine of the country for it to continue in time to Glasgow, Edinburgh and potentially—depending on the wishes of Government and the business case at the time—beyond that. That is what the Bill does.
High Speed 2 (Ancient Woodlands)
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Mr Burns
May I say to my right hon. Friend, in shorthand script, that the answer to both points is no? First, I am not on a sticky wicket. I am outlining to hon. Members what the Government are doing to try to minimise the damage. It is certainly not a sticky wicket; it is actually a range of proposals and initiatives of which I believe that the Government can be proud because of the efforts that we are putting into ensuring that we do everything to avoid causing damage when that is possible and, when it is not, taking the maximum opportunity to minimise the damage that will be caused by building the railway.
Secondly, I do not accept the point about conflict with what HS2 is proposing. Yes, by definition, we cannot uproot an ancient woodland and transplant it lock, stock and barrel to another site, so in that respect my right hon. Friend is correct, but what we can do is take the measures I have described to transplant an area when woodland is being lost because of building work, which will go a considerable way towards helping to protect and improve the environment. That will not, of course, be the same as if one did nothing at all and left the existing ancient woodland, but it is a very good second-best option, and it is certainly better than doing nothing at all and letting that woodland be lost for ever.
Lilian Greenwood
I want to return to the Minister’s statement about no net loss. I query whether that is consistent with the Government’s national policy as set out in the natural environment White Paper and the national planning policy framework. Should they not actually adhere to the current policy of net gain?
Mr Burns
Yes, certainly. What I said was absolutely right: there will be no net loss. We will work according to that principle. In some respects, we will have to wait and see whether there is an increase, particularly with the second phase of the route. All my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has done is to publish the proposed preferred route—the consultation is still to take place. Just as with the hybrid Bill on phase 1, and the hybrid Bill on phase 2 in due course, decisions may be taken in the light of the process that might have an impact. As of now, the policy, the intention and the determination is that there will be no net loss.
Many of our remaining ancient woodlands are small, and there is generally a patchwork of fragmented sites in an intensive agricultural landscape. One of our objectives, which is very much in line with the recommendations that emerged from the Lawton report, is to take this opportunity to link fragments of ancient woodland, when practicable, through the planting of new woodland links. Natural England and the nature conservation NGOs have welcomed that approach, and I hope that it will be welcomed by hon. Members in the Chamber and beyond. Even though it can take many years before the replanted woodland returns to anything like the character of the original, such planting is important to ensure that future generations can enjoy these important sites, but we would be open to any other ideas, if people think that a different form of compensation would be more appropriate. I invite any of my hon. Friends or the official Opposition to contribute if they have any ideas that they believe will help to improve or enhance the process.
We should not lose sight of the fact that many of the best environmental specialists in the country are working on a detailed environmental impact assessment, which will identify the true effects and allow us to bring forward our plans to mitigate them as much as we can. It is currently in draft form for consultation, so I urge all hon. Members to ensure that their constituents who have an interest contribute to the process.
Mr Burns
I do not want to cause disharmony between myself and my right hon. Friend, but I am afraid that what I said in correspondence to her is the answer: I am not prepared to look again, because there has been a reasonable period, for reasons I will come to when I answer the last question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield. In the spirit of co-operation, however, I will respond to her important point about the Brett tunnel option. She asked whether we will reconsider whether the tunnel could be extended beyond where it is proposed to end. HS2 Ltd has looked at the matter again and found that an extension will not offer more benefits than the current option, not least because to extend the tunnel beyond the wood, we would need a ventilation tunnel in the middle of the wood, given the safety requirements for tunnels of certain lengths, and I believe that that would be far more environmentally damaging than the current proposals.
I now come to the specific points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield at the end of his speech. He asked whether my Department will look further at how the loss of ancient woodland can be minimised. The answer is emphatically yes. HS2 Ltd is constantly looking at the route and refining the mitigation that can be applied, and that will continue up until the hybrid Bill process. He asked what assessment has been made of how many hectares of ancient woodland will be lost. HS2 Ltd’s proposals, as they stand, identify fewer than 36 hectares of ancient woodland lost for phase 1, including the land needed for the construction phases of the route. That will be confirmed in the environmental statement that comes before Parliament later this year. It is too early in the design of phase 2 to give accurate figures on the potential loss, but 17 ancient woodland sites are directly affected by it. For some of those sites, the impact is at or near the margins of the wood, and there is scope for reducing the impact as the design progresses. I hope he is reassured on that.
My hon. Friend also asked how much of the total cost of HS2 will be spent on avoiding the loss of woodland and creating new woodland as part of the mitigation process. I hope that he will be pleased to learn that the rough estimate—he will understand why there is only a rough estimate at this stage—is between £10 million and £20 million. We have not finalised the ancient woodland compensation measures however, which will be reported in the formal environmental statement.
My hon. Friend asked whether we will undertake to involve DEFRA and environmental organisations more fully. I assure him that DEFRA, Natural England and the Environment Agency are fully engaged in phase 1 and will continue to be fully engaged. He also asked what involvement communities will have in any mitigation planning. HS2 Ltd engages with local authorities through the planning forum and local people are engaged through the community forums and the current round of consultations. Their views will continue to be considered throughout the development of the designs for HS2. I reiterate that it is important that people respond to the consultations and engage fully in the whole process so that we can work together to do as much as we can to get this right.
Finally—my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham might also be interested in this—my hon. Friend asked whether we will ensure that the full environmental impact assessment, when it is published alongside the Bill, will be a major improvement on the “somewhat inadequate work” that was released earlier in the spring—those are my hon. Friend’s words, not mine. I hope that I can reassure him. The draft environmental statement has been provided at the earliest stage to enable people to participate in the development of the scheme. There is no requirement for the Government to provide such a draft, so we are setting a high standard by taking this approach and publishing the document. To my knowledge, no project on this scale has attempted to provide such information at this early stage—before there is even consent.
Rail 2020
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
I congratulate the Transport Select Committee on the “Rail 2020” report, which combines an informative overview of the rail industry with some acute analysis of the challenges it faces. It certainly provoked a thoughtful debate this afternoon, albeit not necessarily one that involved a high degree of consensus. I suspect that the challenges to franchising in particular have deepened since the report was published last year. If the Committee were to repeat its inquiry today, perhaps its conclusions would be even stronger.
When the McNulty report was published in 2011, it was widely acknowledged that the rail industry was in need of reform. Privatisation had left us with a fragmented and opaque system—a system that incurred massive costs and offered little accountability for the money being spent. Contrary to what the architects of privatisation had promised, subsidy had increased in real terms since the mid-1990s—
Lilian Greenwood
And passengers faced some of the highest fares in Europe, as well as often bewildering pricing structures. The Minister says, “Under your Government” from a sedentary position, but that is precisely why we commissioned McNulty to look at how to achieve efficiencies.
The Committee’s recommendations on financial transparency, fares and ticketing reform and devolution were welcome, but implementation has been delayed by a Department that seems to have been overtaken by problems of its own creation. In the past year, we have witnessed the collapse of the franchising system, which has cost the taxpayer at least £55 million. Those are the direct costs; that figure does not cover the fall in orders that is hurting the supply chain or the uncertainty that still hangs over the industry, nor does it reflect the damage that has been inflicted on the Government’s own efficiency plans—both points well highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman).
The Government intend to find £3.5 billion of industry cost reductions by 2019. An annexe to the “Rail 2020” report states that while
“Some of the savings are already in Network Rail’s plans, most of the rest have to be secured by passenger train operators and their suppliers…via the next generation of franchises.”
Does the Minister accept that analysis? If he does, what does he believe the cost to the taxpayer will be in deferred efficiencies, owing to the much extended delays to the franchising programme?
Against that background, Ministers have taken the politically motivated decision to make the privatisation of East Coast their top priority. At the same time as they are agreeing lucrative extensions for private operators, at great cost to the taxpayer—for example, it was recently reported in the trade press that the c2c contract extension came in £17 million over budget—for ideological reasons the Government are disrupting the one stable part of the network. Since the last private operator walked away, East Coast has returned £640 million to the taxpayer and invested £40 million in the service; it makes the second highest contribution of any operator to the Treasury; and it has significantly improved passenger services.
East Coast provides an interesting test of the Government’s commitment to openness. Despite Ministers’ stated intention to improve transparency, they are trying to have it both ways when it comes to East Coast. The Government cannot both laud the Office of Rail Regulation’s breakdown of the industry’s finances, as they did in the formal response to the “Rail 2020” report, and dismiss the figures that show East Coast to be most efficient operator. It is simply not credible.
The Government have even invented a new measure to bolster the comparison between Virgin Trains’ and East Coast’s premium payments while conveniently ignoring subsidy going the other way. As the net payment figures show, East Coast comfortably paid more to the Treasury over the past three years, but Ministers have tried to give the opposite impression. It is not policy led by evidence—it is just the opposite—from a Government determined to push through privatisation, which will not benefit the railways or passengers.
We have seen no progress on fares and ticketing either. The Government’s review was originally due to be published in May, but we are now told that it will be published at some point in the summer. The Minister will surely appreciate the irony when he next lectures East Coast on punctuality. I hope that the review will now bring forward serious proposals for reform, because at present passengers often find it difficult to secure the cheapest tickets, especially from automatic ticketing machines. The definition of peak and off-peak is not always obvious, and as a consequence some passengers find themselves with huge bills through no fault of their own.
Passengers also rightly feel aggrieved when they have to use a replacement bus service but are not entitled to compensation, regardless of the inconvenience to their journey. Those are the sorts of issues that the fares and ticketing review should be looking at. The Transport Committee was right to call for so-called super-peak tickets to be ruled out. They would penalise those commuters who have no choice but to travel at peak times. I urge the Minister to go further than he had done previously and rule out granting train operating companies the right to redefine peak time periods. I also ask him to give the House a categorical assurance that operators will not be given additional powers to price commuters out of peak time periods.
Mr Burns
Well, let’s move on.
I was just saying that I am surprised and disappointed that the hon. Member for North Durham does not share the enthusiasm of his colleague the Leader of the Opposition for the new high-speed railway. I hope that he will be reassured, however, that rail is thriving. It makes a vital contribution to the UK’s economic competitiveness and the Government’s investment ensures that that will continue.
The Government recognise, however, that we need to work to make rail even better. As recent surveys have shown, although passenger satisfaction is high on average across Great Britain, it can vary significantly across franchises, and although nine out of every 10 trains are running on time, with historically high levels of performance, punctuality is not yet as good as it should be, particularly on long-distance services, but also on London, south-east and regional services. Finally, the railway still costs more than it should.
We fully understand the importance of achieving the McNulty savings, which have been mentioned by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside and others. Our railways must become more efficient and financially sustainable. It is crucial that we ease the pressure of fares on hard-working families and reduce the burden on taxpayers, which is another issue of concern, not only to members of the Transport Committee, but to other hon. Members who have taken part in this debate.
That was the challenge in the Government’s rail Command Paper: how to reduce the costs of running the railway while keeping the passengers at the heart of everything we do. We are making progress. Network Rail will have delivered 40% efficiencies over 2004-2014 and the regulator recently announced a new 20% target for 2019. Further efficiencies will be made through the programme of franchising competitions and the initiatives of the Rail Delivery Group. The key message is that aligning incentives between train operators and Network Rail is one of the most important reforms to drive down costs and bring passenger benefits.
Lilian Greenwood
Will the Minister set out how that has been set back by the delays to franchising, which he seems to be glossing over? Questions have been asked about whether his Department is up to the task.
East Coast Main Line Franchise
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Lilian Greenwood
I intervene merely to confirm that I have not had any telephone conversation with the noble Lord since we last spoke over the Dispatch Box.
Mr Burns
No, I want to make some progress.
By returning the east coast franchise to a private sector operator, we will provide certainty of ownership and much longer-term planning horizons that are not available to public sector operators. That is vital at a time when this Government are making significant investment in the franchise, both in the infrastructure through our rail investment strategy and in new rolling stock as part of the inter-city express programme. A strong private sector partner will be able to build on that investment and work with local stakeholders, the Department and the railway industry to ensure that the best possible deal is delivered for passengers and taxpayers.
I heard the concerns raised by a number of hon. Members about services along the line and what they would like to see for their constituents and the service in general in any future provision.
Lilian Greenwood
The Minister recently said the east coast needs a long-term private sector partner that is able to cope with the totality of this change programme. Will he explain to the House in plain English what precisely he meant by that?
Mr Burns
Absolutely, and doing so will also help answer the points made by the hon. Member for Livingston. The Government are investing significantly in the east coast main line because its infrastructure needs to be improved and enhanced, but Governments are not awash with unlimited amounts of money. We are more ambitious for the east coast main line, and we believe from the experience of other franchisees that they are prepared to invest their money as well, to build on the investment that the Government provide, through Network Rail and other sources, to ensure that there is more investment in improving services for passengers, which is the key aim. That is why this Government are making record amounts of investment in infrastructure, amounting to billions and billions of pounds; such is our commitment to improving passenger services.
Mr Burns
No, because I am running out of time.
Part of the success of franchising comes from having both a private sector that is willing and able to invest and manage risks and a Government who have the ability to step in, in the short term, to ensure the continued service of the railways in the event of a franchise failure. While we do everything we can to avoid such failure, we must be in a position to step in so that there is a continuation of service if a franchisee were to get into trouble, as happened with National Express on the east coast main line in 2009. That is the whole purpose of DOR. It is not a company like other companies providing franchise services within the rail network. It is there as a company of last resort in an emergency to ensure continuity of service under the Railways Acts. This should never be considered a long-term solution, and it is not an alternative model to franchising. Many Members totally misunderstood or did not get that point. This is fundamental: DOR is not an alternative model to franchising. We firmly believe that the private sector is best placed to deliver the best value for the passenger and taxpayer, and DOR allows us to make that choice.
Mr Burns
No; I am running out of time. The nature of Directly Operated Railways, as an interim measure and operator of last resort, means it would not be right or practicable for it to plan beyond the short term. In order to provide the stability and innovation that is needed for any business, in particular a rail franchise that serves the public, it is necessary to be able to plan well into the future and make investment decisions that have a horizon beyond the short term. To meet this need, the inter-city east coast franchise must be transferred back to the private sector.
A number of Members have suggested that East Coast should be maintained in public ownership for an extended period to provide a comparator or baseline for future private sector operators on the franchise, or against operators on other parts of the network. This approach does not work. All franchises are different, and with changes to charges and funding occurring every five years, they even differ from themselves over time. Any attempt directly to compare one franchise with another, or even one incumbent with another on the same franchise, ends up simply comparing apples with pears. East Coast, a large inter-city franchise, is obviously different from Essex Thameside, a franchise providing commuter services on a much smaller route. Clearly, it would be folly to try to make valid comparisons between them. However, even with the apparently similar inter-city west coast franchise, differences in fleet size, cost base, network grant, investment plans, disruption and other factors make drawing a valid comparison with East Coast almost impossible.
There is a comparator already in existence. In the past 17 years since privatisation, the number of passengers using the railways has doubled from 750 million to 1.5 billion. The number of journeys has doubled, and the amount of freight moving off our congested roads and on to the railways has increased by 60%. The comparator is the British Rail model that satisfied no one, failed to respond to its customers and was totally unsuccessful.
East Coast Main Line
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Lilian Greenwood
I do not know when the hon. Gentleman last spoke to Lord Adonis, but sensibly, like the rest of us, he responds to a change in circumstances. Over the past four years, we have seen East Coast perform well under Directly Operated Railways. Therefore, now is the time to keep it as a publicly operated service.
Mr Simon Burns
The hon. Lady has said something important. I do not know when she last spoke to her noble Friend Lord Adonis, but when she did, did he tell her that he had changed his mind?
Lilian Greenwood
The noble Lord is not here to set out his position, but I am sure that we will hear from him in due course.
Lilian Greenwood
In 2009, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) said that if a franchise holder walks away, a public sector comparator should be maintained. Is the Minister in agreement with his departmental colleague?
Mr Burns
The hon. Lady anticipates the very point I am about to make, which is that, under the Railways Act 1993, the Secretary of State has a statutory duty to ensure the continuous, seamless provision of rail services. That is why the Department for Transport has Directly Operated Railways. It is a body of last resort when there is a problem; it is not a permanent company, for want of a better term, to run a rail franchise indefinitely. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary was correct in 2009, and the noble Lord Adonis was also correct.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
There is a growing view that by the time the second phase of HS2 is complete, Crossrail 2 will be essential to cope with the additional passengers travelling through Euston station. Is the Minister content that last week’s revised plan for Euston addresses that problem, or will the DFT now take the sensible step of assessing fully the case for Crossrail 2?
Mr Burns
As the hon. Lady knows, Crossrail 2 is the responsibility of the Mayor of London because it is a devolved matter. However, I accept that there is a knock-on effect for other rail services that are wholly the responsibility of the DFT. The Mayor of London announced recently that there will be a full consultation process. We await that and look forward to seeing any business case or justification. Those matters will be considered in due course, but we have to go through the due processes first.
Railways
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Lilian Greenwood
I will respond to the previous intervention first.
The Government’s claims about the east coast main line’s performance have been blown out of the water by the Office of Rail Regulation’s recent financial report. East Coast has seen rising passenger satisfaction and been given a national award. It receives virtually no subsidy and makes the second highest contribution to the Treasury. The Government’s case for re-privatisation just does not stack up.
Mr Burns
The hon. Lady might want to reassure her hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) that the west coast main line has paid back even more money to the Treasury. In the light of what she has just said, perhaps she would like to explain her view of the comments of her right hon. and noble Friend Lord Adonis and her right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) on the east coast main line going back to franchising and out of public ownership.
Lilian Greenwood
The west coast main line, of course, enjoys the advantage of having had a major infrastructure and rolling stock upgrade, all funded by the taxpayer, and the east coast main line is due to have a large investment in infrastructure and rolling stock, also paid for by the taxpayer. Perhaps the Minister would like to reflect on the comments Lord Adonis made in last year’s “Rebuilding Rail” report. Some years after taking the east coast main line back into a not-for-dividend operator, he acknowledged that the current arrangements hold back our state operator.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lilian Greenwood and Simon Burns(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
18. What assessment he has made of the potential role of (a) competition and (b) co-operation and collaboration in the NHS.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
Co-operation and competition both have important roles to play in improving services for patients. We want to see better integration of services to improve quality and increase choice for patients. Following the listening exercise, we are awaiting the report on the best way forward.
Lilian Greenwood
The Deputy Prime Minister says that he wants Monitor to promote co-operation and collaboration, while the Secretary of State says that competition can lead to a far greater degree of integration. It is good that the Deputy Prime Minister has finally caught up with the views of the public and health professionals—but which of those fundamentally contradictory views will end up in the Bill?
Mr Burns
First, we all want co-operation and competition based on quality. We have had a listening event, and we are awaiting the recommendations of the forum set up under Professor Steve Field. Until we see that report, we cannot comment. I can tell the hon. Lady, however, that we do not want the kind of system of competition in the health service that leads to an independent sector treatment centre in Nottingham being paid 18% more than the NHS for the services provided, and getting £5.6 million for not doing a single operation.