Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Report stage
Tuesday 27th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lee Rowley]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the need to ensure that this regime works. We recognise that there are challenges, which is why we are bringing forward a number of measures.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

On the point about existing contracts that have been signed by people purchasing a leasehold property, is it the Government’s view that those were legitimate contracts and that there is therefore a risk in trying retrospectively to reverse the conditions of those contracts? Or is it the Government’s view that those were abusive contracts and that there is therefore a public policy interest in retrospectively eliminating the leasehold element of them?

[Lee Rowley]

I hope that I will be able to answer my hon. Friends’ questions in a moment when I run quickly through our amendments. We are banning the sale of leasehold houses in all but unusual circumstances, but for those that are out there at the moment, there must be an ability to ensure that they can buy the freehold and move from the leasehold challenges to a freehold. Let me deal with some specifics that I hope will answer some of the questions that have been raised.

Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for tabling the new clause.

Let me separate my remarks into two parts. First, am I relatively sympathetic to the hon. Gentleman’s point? The answer is yes: there is a strong case for the measure. It has not been brought forward to date, and we will have to see whether it is possible to do so in the future. I cannot guarantee that, but we are looking at it and listening carefully. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, and he made a strong case for it. We will not be able to do everything that we have said throughout this process, in the end, but I assure him that we are interested in this potential area.

However, we will resist the new clause, not because it is the convention to do so but because we genuinely think that it is not the right measure, even if we did agree with the principle. To go back to the Henry VIII powers discussion, this is probably an area in respect of which, if we were to do something—again, there are no guarantees—we would do it on the face of the Bill.

[Richard Fuller]

I am listening carefully to the Minister, as I did to the shadow Minister. The current Minister says he is sympathetic to the intentions, but I take his point that it is the wrong new clause, so I will oppose it if it is pressed to a vote. However, the shadow Minister said that the Minister’s predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch, said on the Floor of the House that she was sympathetic to the measure. That is two up. Will the Minister outline what the impediments might be? Will he give some reassurance that by the time we get to Report the Government may have turned sympathy into action? By the way, I think it is empathy, not sympathy.

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend makes a number of salient points—

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

New clause 35 seeks further to improve the rights of those who will be liable for estate management charges. We know from written and oral evidence that people do not know what they are getting into right at the start of the purchase of a property. My clause asks the Government to make it clear by regulations that purchasers of properties who will get management charges are notified about them. It would ensure that people have access to the latest set of accounts, enabling them not only to understand what charges may be due, but to see what liabilities there were in the past.

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire for moving new clause 35. I share his concern that purchasers should know about estate management charges; we talked a little about that issue in our sitting this morning.

There is nothing worse than facing a bill that we know nothing about at a time when we can do nothing about it. That is why the Government have been working with the national trading standards estate and letting agency team to develop guidance for property agents on what constitutes material information. The information must be included in property listings to meet the obligations under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. Estate management charges are considered material if they will have an impact on a decision to purchase. That should mean that purchasers get information on the expected level of estate management charges when they see the property particulars before they even view the property, let alone make an offer.

In addition to the measures that we discussed this morning, we are seeking to include in the Bill a requirement that freehold estate management information be provided to potential sellers, meaning that conveyancers acting on behalf of those sellers can quickly get the detailed information that they need to provide to potential purchasers. That could include accounts, if the estate manager is a resident-owned company, as well as any previous or future charges. With that reassurance in mind, I hope that my hon. Friend will consider withdrawing his new clause.

[Richard Fuller]

I think that that reassurance has been provided. The particular issue is that when people buy these homes, the solicitors are usually appointed by the people selling them. It is important that the Minister thinks carefully about that, and it sounds very much as if he is doing so. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 36

Asbestos remediation

“(1) The Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 37B, insert—

‘37C Asbestos remediation

(1) This section applies where a claim to exercise the right to collective enfranchisement in respect of any premises is made by tenants of flats contained in the premises and the claim is effective.

(2) The landlord must cause a survey of the premises to be undertaken by an accredited professional to ascertain whether asbestos is, or is liable to be, present in those parts of the premises which the landlord is responsible for maintaining.

(3) Where the survey required by subsection (2) reveals the presence of asbestos, the landlord must, at the landlord’s cost, arrange for its safe removal.

(4) If the removal of asbestos required by subsection (3) is not carried out before the responsibility for maintaining the affected parts transfers to another person under the claim to exercise the right of collective enfranchisement, the landlord is liable for the costs of its removal.’”—(Barry Gardiner.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Barry Gardiner]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The Minister will be relieved to know that this is genuinely a probing new clause, which I am pleased to move on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms). He is not a member of the Committee, but he certainly wishes to raise the issue on Report.

New clause 36 would address the problems relating to enfranchisement when asbestos has been found, or is liable to be found, in the structure of a building. It requires that a survey be done prior to any enfranchisement process, and sets out that the landlord would be responsible for the remediation if asbestos should need to be cleared from the building. I am laying out the new clause before the Committee so that the Minister can set out his thinking about such problems in buildings, in the full knowledge that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham will speak to it on Report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner]

I am grateful to the Minister for recognising the need to do something in this area and accepting that there is a problem here that it would be best to resolve. I simply point out that leasehold reform Bills tend to come infrequently before Parliament, and I urge him to come back at a later stage with his best endeavours to resolve the problem. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 50

Control of boards of estate managers

“(1) Within six months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must by regulations provide for—

(a) every estate manager (see section 39(3)) to be constituted such that a controlling majority on its board is held by an owner or lessor of a managed dwelling (see section 39(5));

(b) the requirement stipulated in paragraph (a) to be in place within two years of the sale or lease of the first managed dwelling.

(2) Regulations under subsection (1) may amend primary legislation.”—(Richard Fuller.)

This new clause would provide for the Secretary of State by regulations to oblige every estate management company to have a majority of residents on its board within two years of the sale or let of the first house or flat on the managed estate.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Richard Fuller]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I am receiving some interesting guidance from the Government Whip that I should seek to speak at length on the new clause, which is contrary to all his earlier exhortations, which were rather of the flavour that I should shut up entirely. I am not getting any further guidance from the Whip, so I will go at my own pace.

New clause 50 is a suggestion to the Minister. We have discussed the general hope that people subject to estate management charges should have much greater control over their estate management companies. They potentially should have the right to self-manage and it should be much easier for them to change from one estate manager to another. At the moment it can take a considerable time for estate management companies essentially to be set up and/or for them to go through what is essentially a transfer to resident control. I think all members of the Committee know this, but I will just inform them that we have had a number of representations from people who have talked about how long they have had to wait, including someone who said that a family had to wait up to 13 years for the right to manage their own estate management company and endured poor service over that entire period.

As the Minister thinks about his options to bring forward on Report or in further deliberations improvements to the rights of people, the new clause suggests that, by law, within two years of the sale or lease of the first building a majority of the directors of the estate management companies should be residents of their community.

[Lee Rowley]

This is an interesting new clause that bears a few moments’ consideration, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for tabling it. Obviously, the first challenge is the matter of Henry VIII powers. I will put that aside for the moment, but we have genuine concerns about whether the new clause would get past the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on the basis of whether it is proportionate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Again, this new clause originates from some of the inbound traffic that we have received as we have considered the Bill. I seek clarification from the Minister about the extent of these changes. The Committee was advised by a number of citizens about the status of estate management companies that are written into the deeds or other legal documents that are signed upon purchase. One such citizen wrote:

“Our management company…is named in the TP1, so we have no rights to do this”—

that is, to essentially appoint their own managers.

This is a probing new clause: I just want the Minister to be clear about the impact of the Bill on individuals such as the person whom I just quoted. As a consequence of the Bill’s provisions, will they be able to change their estate management company, or is there some legal trick about the original documents that were signed on purchase that would mean they are not brought into the ambit of those new rights?

[Lee Rowley]

As my hon. Friend outlined, the new clause would introduce a requirement for the Government to assess the situation of homeowners with estate management companies explicitly named on their deeds within a three-month timeframe.

I am sympathetic to the concerns that my hon. Friend raised. I know that he recognises that this is a complex area and that there are detailed issues to be worked through. As well as being clear about the nature of the problem, there could be issues about defining the scope of estate management functions and what criteria need to be met. The Law Commission carried out a review of the right to manage for flats, but that is not always directly transferable to freehold estates. It will take some time to carry out a review, and we need to engage with people across the sector. Then, the CMA report is coming. None the less, I recognise my hon. Friend’s concerns that the comprehensive measures in the Bill do not go far enough, and I acknowledge his desire for the Government to go further. I am listening carefully to his concerns on this matter. On that basis, I hope that he might withdraw his new clause.

[Richard Fuller]

It is not actually clear that the Minister was addressing new clause 51 as I was expecting; that may be the fault of my hearing. I was seeking clarification about the TP1—transfer of part of registered title—form, which is used by developers when selling a house to explicitly name an estate management company that will be in situ. That may be the norm; I do not know. However, can the Minister clarify, if the way that it is originally set up is not the norm and it is a legal device, whether it has greater legal standing, and whether the rights of people for whom the estate management company is defined in form TP1 will be included in the rights that we are trying to establish with the rest of the Bill? If we introduce changes that increase the right to manage and so on, will they be covered? I may well have missed it, because the Minister is much more knowledgeable about the Bill than I am, even after all our deliberations. However, just to the specific point about the legal forms, will he consider bringing that in as part of this?

[Lee Rowley]

I want to double-check the valid points made by my hon. Friend. I will commit to writing to him on that specific point to make sure that we are covering in the way that he expects.

[Richard Fuller]

That is very kind of the Minister. With that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Schedule 1

Redress schemes: financial penalties

“Notice of intent

(1) Before imposing a financial penalty on a person under section (Financial penalties), an enforcement authority must give the person notice of its proposal to do so (a ‘notice of intent’).

(2) The notice of intent must be given before the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the first day on which the enforcement authority has sufficient evidence of the conduct to which the financial penalty relates.

(3) But if the person is continuing to engage in the conduct on that day, and the conduct continues beyond the end of that day, the notice of intent may be given—

(a) at any time when the conduct is continuing, or

(b) within the period of 6 months beginning with the last day on which the conduct occurs.

(4) The notice of intent must set out—

(a) the date on which the notice of intent is given,

(b) the amount of the proposed financial penalty,

(c) the reasons for proposing to impose the penalty, and

(d) information about the right to make representations under paragraph 2.

Right to make representations

2 (1) A person who is given a notice of intent may make written representations to the enforcement authority about the proposal to impose a financial penalty.

(2) Any representations must be made within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after the day on which the notice of intent was given to the person (‘the period for representations’).

Final notice

3 (1) After the end of the period for representations the enforcement authority must—

(a) decide whether to impose a financial penalty on the person, and

(b) if it decides to do so, decide the amount of the penalty.

(2) If the enforcement authority decides to impose a financial penalty on the person, it must give a notice to the person (a ‘final notice’) imposing that penalty.

(3) The final notice must require the penalty to be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after the day on which the notice was given.

(4) The final notice must set out—

(a) the date on which the final notice is given,

(b) the amount of the financial penalty,

(c) the reasons for imposing the penalty,

(d) information about how to pay the penalty,

(e) the period for payment of the penalty,

(f) information about rights of appeal, and

(g) the consequences of failure to comply with the notice.

Withdrawal or amendment of notice

4 (1) An enforcement authority that gives a notice of intent or final notice may at any time—

(a) withdraw the notice of intent or final notice, or

(b) reduce an amount specified in the notice of intent or final notice.

(2) The power in sub-paragraph (1) is to be exercised by giving notice in writing to the person to whom the notice was given.

Appeals

5 (1) A person to whom a final notice is given may appeal to the First-tier Tribunal against—

(a) the decision to impose the penalty, or

(b) the amount of the penalty.

(2) An appeal under this paragraph must be brought within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after the day on which the final notice is given to the person.

(3) If a person appeals under this paragraph, the final notice is suspended until the appeal is finally determined, withdrawn or abandoned.

(4) An appeal under this paragraph—

(a) is to be a re-hearing of the enforcement authority’s decision, but

(b) may be determined having regard to matters of which the enforcement authority was unaware.

(5) On an appeal under this paragraph the First-tier Tribunal may quash, confirm or vary the final notice.

(6) The final notice may not be varied under sub-paragraph (5) so as to impose a financial penalty of more than the enforcement authority could have imposed.

Recovery of financial penalty

6 (1) This paragraph applies if a person fails to pay the whole or any part of a financial penalty which, in accordance with this Schedule, the person is liable to pay.

(2) The enforcement authority which imposed the financial penalty may recover the penalty or part on the order of the county court as if it were payable under an order of that court.

Proceeds of financial penalties

(1) Where an enforcement authority imposes a financial penalty under section (Financial penalties), it may apply the proceeds towards meeting the costs and expenses (whether administrative or legal) incurred in, or associated with, carrying out any of its functions under this Part of this Act.

(2) Any proceeds of a financial penalty imposed under section (Financial penalties) by an enforcement authority other than the Secretary of State which are not applied in accordance with sub-paragraph (1) must be paid to the Secretary of State.”—(Lee Rowley.)

This new Schedule, to be inserted after Schedule 8, would make further provision about the imposition of financial penalties under NC19.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

Title

[Lee Rowley]

I beg to move amendment 28, in title, line 5, leave out “charges and costs payable by residential”

and insert

“the relationship between residential landlords and”.

This amendment is consequential on amendments to Part 3.

This is a consequential amendment to remove the reference to part 3 in the long title of the Bill. It ensures that it provides an accurate description of the Bill’s contents to reflect the impact of the measures the Committee has brought forward. That includes the amendments to enable the first-tier tribunal to vary or discharge an order to appoint a manager of a premises without an application.

Amendment 28 agreed to.

Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for tabling the new clause.

Let me separate my remarks into two parts. First, am I relatively sympathetic to the hon. Gentleman’s point? The answer is yes: there is a strong case for the measure. It has not been brought forward to date, and we will have to see whether it is possible to do so in the future. I cannot guarantee that, but we are looking at it and listening carefully. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, and he made a strong case for it. We will not be able to do everything that we have said throughout this process, in the end, but I assure him that we are interested in this potential area.

However, we will resist the new clause, not because it is the convention to do so but because we genuinely think that it is not the right measure, even if we did agree with the principle. To go back to the Henry VIII powers discussion, this is probably an area in respect of which, if we were to do something—again, there are no guarantees—we would do it on the face of the Bill.

[Richard Fuller]

I am listening carefully to the Minister, as I did to the shadow Minister. The current Minister says he is sympathetic to the intentions, but I take his point that it is the wrong new clause, so I will oppose it if it is pressed to a vote. However, the shadow Minister said that the Minister’s predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch, said on the Floor of the House that she was sympathetic to the measure. That is two up. Will the Minister outline what the impediments might be? Will he give some reassurance that by the time we get to Report the Government may have turned sympathy into action? By the way, I think it is empathy, not sympathy.

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend makes a number of salient points—

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

New clause 35 seeks further to improve the rights of those who will be liable for estate management charges. We know from written and oral evidence that people do not know what they are getting into right at the start of the purchase of a property. My clause asks the Government to make it clear by regulations that purchasers of properties who will get management charges are notified about them. It would ensure that people have access to the latest set of accounts, enabling them not only to understand what charges may be due, but to see what liabilities there were in the past.

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire for moving new clause 35. I share his concern that purchasers should know about estate management charges; we talked a little about that issue in our sitting this morning.

There is nothing worse than facing a bill that we know nothing about at a time when we can do nothing about it. That is why the Government have been working with the national trading standards estate and letting agency team to develop guidance for property agents on what constitutes material information. The information must be included in property listings to meet the obligations under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. Estate management charges are considered material if they will have an impact on a decision to purchase. That should mean that purchasers get information on the expected level of estate management charges when they see the property particulars before they even view the property, let alone make an offer.

In addition to the measures that we discussed this morning, we are seeking to include in the Bill a requirement that freehold estate management information be provided to potential sellers, meaning that conveyancers acting on behalf of those sellers can quickly get the detailed information that they need to provide to potential purchasers. That could include accounts, if the estate manager is a resident-owned company, as well as any previous or future charges. With that reassurance in mind, I hope that my hon. Friend will consider withdrawing his new clause.

[Richard Fuller]

I think that that reassurance has been provided. The particular issue is that when people buy these homes, the solicitors are usually appointed by the people selling them. It is important that the Minister thinks carefully about that, and it sounds very much as if he is doing so. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 36

Asbestos remediation

“(1) The Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 37B, insert—

‘37C Asbestos remediation

(1) This section applies where a claim to exercise the right to collective enfranchisement in respect of any premises is made by tenants of flats contained in the premises and the claim is effective.

(2) The landlord must cause a survey of the premises to be undertaken by an accredited professional to ascertain whether asbestos is, or is liable to be, present in those parts of the premises which the landlord is responsible for maintaining.

(3) Where the survey required by subsection (2) reveals the presence of asbestos, the landlord must, at the landlord’s cost, arrange for its safe removal.

(4) If the removal of asbestos required by subsection (3) is not carried out before the responsibility for maintaining the affected parts transfers to another person under the claim to exercise the right of collective enfranchisement, the landlord is liable for the costs of its removal.’”—(Barry Gardiner.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Barry Gardiner]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The Minister will be relieved to know that this is genuinely a probing new clause, which I am pleased to move on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms). He is not a member of the Committee, but he certainly wishes to raise the issue on Report.

New clause 36 would address the problems relating to enfranchisement when asbestos has been found, or is liable to be found, in the structure of a building. It requires that a survey be done prior to any enfranchisement process, and sets out that the landlord would be responsible for the remediation if asbestos should need to be cleared from the building. I am laying out the new clause before the Committee so that the Minister can set out his thinking about such problems in buildings, in the full knowledge that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham will speak to it on Report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner]

I am grateful to the Minister for recognising the need to do something in this area and accepting that there is a problem here that it would be best to resolve. I simply point out that leasehold reform Bills tend to come infrequently before Parliament, and I urge him to come back at a later stage with his best endeavours to resolve the problem. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 50

Control of boards of estate managers

“(1) Within six months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must by regulations provide for—

(a) every estate manager (see section 39(3)) to be constituted such that a controlling majority on its board is held by an owner or lessor of a managed dwelling (see section 39(5));

(b) the requirement stipulated in paragraph (a) to be in place within two years of the sale or lease of the first managed dwelling.

(2) Regulations under subsection (1) may amend primary legislation.”—(Richard Fuller.)

This new clause would provide for the Secretary of State by regulations to oblige every estate management company to have a majority of residents on its board within two years of the sale or let of the first house or flat on the managed estate.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Richard Fuller]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I am receiving some interesting guidance from the Government Whip that I should seek to speak at length on the new clause, which is contrary to all his earlier exhortations, which were rather of the flavour that I should shut up entirely. I am not getting any further guidance from the Whip, so I will go at my own pace.

New clause 50 is a suggestion to the Minister. We have discussed the general hope that people subject to estate management charges should have much greater control over their estate management companies. They potentially should have the right to self-manage and it should be much easier for them to change from one estate manager to another. At the moment it can take a considerable time for estate management companies essentially to be set up and/or for them to go through what is essentially a transfer to resident control. I think all members of the Committee know this, but I will just inform them that we have had a number of representations from people who have talked about how long they have had to wait, including someone who said that a family had to wait up to 13 years for the right to manage their own estate management company and endured poor service over that entire period.

As the Minister thinks about his options to bring forward on Report or in further deliberations improvements to the rights of people, the new clause suggests that, by law, within two years of the sale or lease of the first building a majority of the directors of the estate management companies should be residents of their community.

[Lee Rowley]

This is an interesting new clause that bears a few moments’ consideration, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for tabling it. Obviously, the first challenge is the matter of Henry VIII powers. I will put that aside for the moment, but we have genuine concerns about whether the new clause would get past the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on the basis of whether it is proportionate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Again, this new clause originates from some of the inbound traffic that we have received as we have considered the Bill. I seek clarification from the Minister about the extent of these changes. The Committee was advised by a number of citizens about the status of estate management companies that are written into the deeds or other legal documents that are signed upon purchase. One such citizen wrote:

“Our management company…is named in the TP1, so we have no rights to do this”—

that is, to essentially appoint their own managers.

This is a probing new clause: I just want the Minister to be clear about the impact of the Bill on individuals such as the person whom I just quoted. As a consequence of the Bill’s provisions, will they be able to change their estate management company, or is there some legal trick about the original documents that were signed on purchase that would mean they are not brought into the ambit of those new rights?

[Lee Rowley]

As my hon. Friend outlined, the new clause would introduce a requirement for the Government to assess the situation of homeowners with estate management companies explicitly named on their deeds within a three-month timeframe.

I am sympathetic to the concerns that my hon. Friend raised. I know that he recognises that this is a complex area and that there are detailed issues to be worked through. As well as being clear about the nature of the problem, there could be issues about defining the scope of estate management functions and what criteria need to be met. The Law Commission carried out a review of the right to manage for flats, but that is not always directly transferable to freehold estates. It will take some time to carry out a review, and we need to engage with people across the sector. Then, the CMA report is coming. None the less, I recognise my hon. Friend’s concerns that the comprehensive measures in the Bill do not go far enough, and I acknowledge his desire for the Government to go further. I am listening carefully to his concerns on this matter. On that basis, I hope that he might withdraw his new clause.

[Richard Fuller]

It is not actually clear that the Minister was addressing new clause 51 as I was expecting; that may be the fault of my hearing. I was seeking clarification about the TP1—transfer of part of registered title—form, which is used by developers when selling a house to explicitly name an estate management company that will be in situ. That may be the norm; I do not know. However, can the Minister clarify, if the way that it is originally set up is not the norm and it is a legal device, whether it has greater legal standing, and whether the rights of people for whom the estate management company is defined in form TP1 will be included in the rights that we are trying to establish with the rest of the Bill? If we introduce changes that increase the right to manage and so on, will they be covered? I may well have missed it, because the Minister is much more knowledgeable about the Bill than I am, even after all our deliberations. However, just to the specific point about the legal forms, will he consider bringing that in as part of this?

[Lee Rowley]

I want to double-check the valid points made by my hon. Friend. I will commit to writing to him on that specific point to make sure that we are covering in the way that he expects.

[Richard Fuller]

That is very kind of the Minister. With that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Schedule 1

Redress schemes: financial penalties

“Notice of intent

(1) Before imposing a financial penalty on a person under section (Financial penalties), an enforcement authority must give the person notice of its proposal to do so (a ‘notice of intent’).

(2) The notice of intent must be given before the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the first day on which the enforcement authority has sufficient evidence of the conduct to which the financial penalty relates.

(3) But if the person is continuing to engage in the conduct on that day, and the conduct continues beyond the end of that day, the notice of intent may be given—

(a) at any time when the conduct is continuing, or

(b) within the period of 6 months beginning with the last day on which the conduct occurs.

(4) The notice of intent must set out—

(a) the date on which the notice of intent is given,

(b) the amount of the proposed financial penalty,

(c) the reasons for proposing to impose the penalty, and

(d) information about the right to make representations under paragraph 2.

Right to make representations

2 (1) A person who is given a notice of intent may make written representations to the enforcement authority about the proposal to impose a financial penalty.

(2) Any representations must be made within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after the day on which the notice of intent was given to the person (‘the period for representations’).

Final notice

3 (1) After the end of the period for representations the enforcement authority must—

(a) decide whether to impose a financial penalty on the person, and

(b) if it decides to do so, decide the amount of the penalty.

(2) If the enforcement authority decides to impose a financial penalty on the person, it must give a notice to the person (a ‘final notice’) imposing that penalty.

(3) The final notice must require the penalty to be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after the day on which the notice was given.

(4) The final notice must set out—

(a) the date on which the final notice is given,

(b) the amount of the financial penalty,

(c) the reasons for imposing the penalty,

(d) information about how to pay the penalty,

(e) the period for payment of the penalty,

(f) information about rights of appeal, and

(g) the consequences of failure to comply with the notice.

Withdrawal or amendment of notice

4 (1) An enforcement authority that gives a notice of intent or final notice may at any time—

(a) withdraw the notice of intent or final notice, or

(b) reduce an amount specified in the notice of intent or final notice.

(2) The power in sub-paragraph (1) is to be exercised by giving notice in writing to the person to whom the notice was given.

Appeals

5 (1) A person to whom a final notice is given may appeal to the First-tier Tribunal against—

(a) the decision to impose the penalty, or

(b) the amount of the penalty.

(2) An appeal under this paragraph must be brought within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after the day on which the final notice is given to the person.

(3) If a person appeals under this paragraph, the final notice is suspended until the appeal is finally determined, withdrawn or abandoned.

(4) An appeal under this paragraph—

(a) is to be a re-hearing of the enforcement authority’s decision, but

(b) may be determined having regard to matters of which the enforcement authority was unaware.

(5) On an appeal under this paragraph the First-tier Tribunal may quash, confirm or vary the final notice.

(6) The final notice may not be varied under sub-paragraph (5) so as to impose a financial penalty of more than the enforcement authority could have imposed.

Recovery of financial penalty

6 (1) This paragraph applies if a person fails to pay the whole or any part of a financial penalty which, in accordance with this Schedule, the person is liable to pay.

(2) The enforcement authority which imposed the financial penalty may recover the penalty or part on the order of the county court as if it were payable under an order of that court.

Proceeds of financial penalties

(1) Where an enforcement authority imposes a financial penalty under section (Financial penalties), it may apply the proceeds towards meeting the costs and expenses (whether administrative or legal) incurred in, or associated with, carrying out any of its functions under this Part of this Act.

(2) Any proceeds of a financial penalty imposed under section (Financial penalties) by an enforcement authority other than the Secretary of State which are not applied in accordance with sub-paragraph (1) must be paid to the Secretary of State.”—(Lee Rowley.)

This new Schedule, to be inserted after Schedule 8, would make further provision about the imposition of financial penalties under NC19.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

Title

[Lee Rowley]

I beg to move amendment 28, in title, line 5, leave out “charges and costs payable by residential”

and insert

“the relationship between residential landlords and”.

This amendment is consequential on amendments to Part 3.

This is a consequential amendment to remove the reference to part 3 in the long title of the Bill. It ensures that it provides an accurate description of the Bill’s contents to reflect the impact of the measures the Committee has brought forward. That includes the amendments to enable the first-tier tribunal to vary or discharge an order to appoint a manager of a premises without an application.

Amendment 28 agreed to.

Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Fuller]

I beg to move amendment 139, in clause 44, page 68, line 31, at end insert—

“(3A) Where the appropriate tribunal has made a determination on an application under subsection (1) or (3) that an estate management charge is not payable because the costs incurred by an estate manager are not relevant costs under section 41(1)(b) (services or works to be of a reasonable standard), the tribunal may impose a penalty on the estate manager which is payable to the residents of affected managed dwellings; and the tribunal may determine how much of the penalty is to be paid to the residents of each affected managed dwelling.”

This amendment would enable the tribunal to impose a financial penalty, payable to residents of affected managed dwellings, where estate management work has not been completed to a reasonable standard.

The clause is an excellent step forward in ensuring that freeholders will have rights to access a tribunal when there are errors and poor provision of services on their estate, so I very much welcome it. Through the amendment, I seek to probe the Minister about whether we have got the balance right to enable effective use of the tribunal. The amendment essentially says that in addition to requiring that poor-standard, poorly provided services are brought up to standard, the tribunal could impose a financial penalty on the management company.

It requires a tremendous effort for people to take cases to a tribunal: they often have to make a collective effort and gather evidence about what has gone wrong, and they may have to go through weeks, months or potentially years to get to the point where they can take a case successfully to tribunal. If the only remedy at the end of that is that those services have to be brought up to standard, where is the incentive not to provide defective services in the first place? By enabling the tribunal to impose financial penalties, the amendment would redress the balance, with the bias more towards those suffering from poor service in the first place.

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for tabling this probing amendment. I agree that where works and services are provided and charged for on freehold estates, their costs should be charged to residents only if they are of a reasonable standard. As he indicated, clause 41 makes progress in that regard. Clause 44 allows for the appropriate tribunal to determine whether an estate management charge is payable. Should the tribunal find that services or works charged for have not been carried out to a reasonable standard, it will determine the amount that the homeowner is liable to pay. That is equivalent to the leasehold regime, and I do think that tribunals are the best placed to make that decision.

On whether additionality is required, the appropriate tribunal is not an enforcement body; it is not a weights and measures authority or a district council. If a financial penalty were applied for works not completed to a reasonable standard, the appropriate tribunal would need to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that that was the case. My hon. Friend may say—I have some sympathy with the point—that people would probably not go to tribunal, given its complexity. In addition, if people want to sue for defective works and such things, they can do so through other parts of the legal system; that form of redress is available if necessary.

If we were to introduce penalties for works or services not completed to a reasonable standard on freehold estates, the challenge would be in the implications for the tribunal and the equivalent leasehold regime. Therefore, while I have a lot of sympathy with my hon. Friend’s point, I hope that he will consider withdrawing the amendment it on the basis that it would probably move the tribunal too much in one direction and create a whole heap of other consequences that we would need to think carefully about, and which I do not think we can accept at the current time.

[Richard Fuller]

I am grateful for the Minister’s comments. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Rowley]

I will try directly to address the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, to which we are sympathetic. It is important that litigation costs are not passed on. On the leasehold side, there is clear evidence that that is happening, but the question is whether there is clear evidence of it happening in the area of estate management. From speaking to officials, we do not see that clear evidence at the moment. However, if any members of the Committee or others have such evidence, I would welcome it. If it is happening, I am sure that we would be happy to consider the issue as the Bill progresses.

[Richard Fuller]

With the Minister’s assurance that he will keep a watching brief on the issue, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Lee Rowley]

Clause 44 grants homeowners a new right to apply to the appropriate tribunal for a determination on whether their estate management charge is payable, and if it is, how it should be paid, by whom and to whom it should be paid, and the date by which the payment should be made. Under this provision, the tribunal will enforce the newly established reasonableness principle set out by clause 41, which requires estate management services to be reasonable, and any works or services to be of a reasonable standard.

The clause requires estate management companies to charge the correct fees from the outset, thereby reducing the number of homeowners being overcharged for works and services on their estate or being at risk of legal action. The clause also sets out the circumstances in which an application cannot be made, including when the homeowner has already agreed to, but not paid, the charge, or in which the issue has already been subject to a decision by a court. That will prevent homeowners from bringing unjustified or vexatious claims, which can lead to delays in the payment of valid estate management charges and negatively impact the upkeep and good management of the estate. The clause delivers on a Government commitment to increase protections for existing homeowners, and I commend it to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 44 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 45

Demands for payment

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 49 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 50

Meaning of “administration charge”

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Lee Rowley]

Currently, freehold homeowners on managed estates have very few protections relating to the cost of administration charges they may be liable to pay. This can leave homeowners paying excessively high administration charges that they are unable to challenge. We will address this issue and give homeowners greater protection. We intend to do that by mirroring the existing framework in place to protect leaseholders.

Clause 50 provides a definition of an administration charge. It is

“an amount payable…by an owner of a dwelling”.

That amount must be in connection with applications or approvals in connection with a relevant obligation, the provision of documents, the sale or transfer of land, a failure to make a payment by the owner, or a breach of a relevant obligation. Subsections (2) and (3) allow the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to amend the definition of an administration charge by regulations, which must be done using the affirmative procedure. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 50 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 51

Duty of estate managers to publish administration charge schedules

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Lee Rowley]

Homeowners on managed estates can be subject to high and unreasonable administration charges, as I indicated. Part of the problem is the lack of clarity or transparency surrounding them. Clause 51 introduces a duty for an estate manager to publish an administration charge schedule if they expect to impose an administration charge.

Subsection (2) requires that the schedule should include the detail of administration charges that the estate manager considers to be payable and their associated costs. Where the cost cannot be confirmed before a charge is payable, the method of determining the cost should be included. Subsection (3) requires a revised schedule to be published if an estate manger revises the administration charges. Subsection (5) allows the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to prescribe in regulations the form and content of the administration charge schedule and how it is to be provided to homeowners. We will work with all relevant partners to ensure that we obtain the right level of detail in regulations.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire for his amendment 143, which would increase the maximum amount of damages from £1,000 to £10,000. I hope that, potentially, our discussion on the previous clause would apply here, and I repeat that the Government intend to write to all Committee members about this issue in the days ahead.

Amendment 144 seeks to ensure that any damages that the tribunal orders payable under Clause 52 (2)(b) cannot be recouped from residents through subsequent charges. I agree with my hon. Friend that residents should be protected from future charges. An estate manager can only recover costs incurred in estate management. A tribunal order to pay damages would not be regarded as falling within the definition of costs of estate management.

The transparency measures included in clauses 46 and 47, in the form of the annual report and the right to obtain information upon request, would also deter estate managers from attempting to recoup these costs. That is because it would become obviously visible and it would be clear that it was not related to estate management. I note, however, my hon. Friend’s concerns and I am listening carefully on this matter. I hope that he might see fit to withdraw his amendment, having heard the Government’s response.

Finally, clause 52 sets out the enforcement provisions that reinforce the new duty in clause 51 to publish a schedule. A freehold homeowner on a managed estate may make an application to the appropriate tribunal if an estate manager has not published a schedule, or has done so but contrary to any provisions determined by the relevant Ministers.

The appropriate tribunal may order that the estate manager provides a correct schedule within 14 days of the order being made, and it may also order that the estate manager pays damages not exceeding £1,000 to the homeowner. We believe that this is a proportionate and effective enforcement mechanism where an estate manager fails to comply with its obligations. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Richard Fuller]

Many thanks to the Minister, again, for proposing further changes to help homeowners who are affected by estate management charges. I am pleased to hear him reiterate that he will consider the issues raised in my amendment 143 about the appropriateness of charges. The shadow Minister raised similar concerns about those being set at an effective level.

On amendment 144, will the Minister consider writing to the Committee about how, in practice, not passing on damages, fees or charges to residents will work? Great Denham is a new part of my constituency, and in an estate of a few thousand houses, there may be 50, 60, 70 or more property management companies. All of them are discrete limited companies and all were set up as subsidiaries of one or more parent company. We need to be sure, from the Government’s point of view—given that some of these limited companies could go bust—about where the trail leads to. Under corporate law, as I understand it, there is no requirement for a parent company to be liable for the losses of a subsidiary that goes bust, and we want to ensure that liabilities flow upwards to the ultimate holding company.

Presumably, the payment of administration fees or dividends may go from subsidiary companies to the very large companies that are the ultimate parents. Is the Minister able to explain how he sees that working in practice? If not, or if it is too detailed to talk about now, perhaps he could agree to write to give some examples to the Committee in due course.

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend highlights an important point. I think it is better that I write, but in principle, the transparency we seek to bring and the requirement to clearly articulate the charges that have been made, either in the annual report or elsewhere, aim to provide the sunlight that means that it is clear who is paying for what, and, if it is not a reasonable charge, there is a process that can be followed. But I will write to him with more on that, if that is helpful, because we all want to get this right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Rowley]

Turning first to new clause 15, some leaseholders and homeowners on freehold estates do not currently have access to redress outside of the tribunal or the courts. I should note that part 4 of the Bill will give comprehensive rights and protections to homeowners on freehold estates, including access to the relevant tribunal. Though property managing agents are required by law to join a Government-approved redress scheme, there is no such requirement for leasehold landlords and freehold estate managers who manage their property or estate themselves. This means that for issues that fall outside the court or tribunal’s jurisdiction, such as poor communication or behavioural issues, those leaseholders and homeowners on freehold estates can make a complaint only through their landlord or estate manager’s own complaints process. If there is no complaints procedure, or once the leaseholder or homeowner has exhausted it, their access to redress is exhausted.

New clause 15 will fill this gap by providing that leasehold landlords and freehold estate managing agents who manage their property or estate can be required to join a redress scheme. The redress scheme will independently investigate and determine complaints made by a current or former owner. A redress scheme will need to be approved by, and administered by or on behalf of, the “lead enforcement authority”—the Secretary of State or other designated body. The Government have taken powers that will allow us to make exemptions to the requirement in specific circumstances and also a power to amend the definitions in this section. New clause 15 will fill gaps that leaseholders and homeowners on freehold estates currently experience in access to redress. I commend the clause to the Committee.

New clause 16 makes it clear that the redress scheme provided for under this part may act under a voluntary jurisdiction. That means they may allow for members to join the scheme who are not required to join under new clause 15. The scheme may also investigate and determine complaints outside their jurisdiction at their discretion, including complaints by people who are not current or former owners of a relevant dwelling. The scheme may offer voluntary mediation services and allow for certain complaints or circumstances to be excluded from their remit. The voluntary jurisdiction may be subject to the approval conditions that the redress scheme must comply with under new clause 18, which I will come to in a moment.

New clause 17 gives the Secretary of State the power to make payments, including loans, or give financial assistance to establish or maintain a redress scheme. The Government expect the costs of the redress scheme to be funded by the scheme themselves—for example, through charging membership fees. However, there may be some circumstances where the provision of funding is needed. The clause offers flexibility in that instance.

New clause 18 makes provision for the approval and designation of redress schemes. The approval conditions will apply to the future redress scheme and must be satisfied before the redress scheme is approved or designated. The approval conditions will be set out in regulations made by the Secretary of State and will include, but are not limited to, those conditions set out in subsection (3). In addition, new clause 18 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations to provide for the process for making applications for the approval of a redress scheme, the time the approval or designation remains valid, and the process for approval or designation to be withdrawn or revoked. It also allows for a scheme to set membership fees to cover the cost of providing the service.

I will now turn to new clauses 19, 20 and 9, and new schedule 1. To ensure compliance from landlords and freehold estate managers who are required to join a redress scheme, we need to ensure that robust enforcement mechanisms are in place. New clause 19 does that by allowing an enforcement authority to impose financial penalties where breaches of regulations by not joining a redress scheme occur. It also allows for the Secretary of State to make regulations to allow for the investigation of suspected breaches, and for co-operation and information sharing between enforcement authorities for the purposes of investigation.

New clause 20 sets out the amounts of the financial penalty that enforcement authorities may impose on landlords and freehold estate managers who do not comply with the requirement to join a redress scheme. An initial penalty for breaching the requirement may be up to £5,000. However, repeated breaches could lead to a penalty of up to £30,000. The new clause also allows the Secretary of State to amend the amount of financial penalty in regulations to reflect changes in the value of money.

New clause 9 provides a route for leaseholders to apply to the tribunal for an order to appoint a manager in place of their landlord if their landlord has failed to join the redress scheme. As with other “reasons”, leaseholders can apply for an order that a manager be appointed, and the tribunal will make one if

“it is just and convenient to make the order in all the circumstances of the case”.

[Richard Fuller]

The Minister will be aware of concerns about the practical application of this provision when it is put into practice, and the pressures on the tribunal. Under new clause 9, as I best understand it, homeowners will have the right to go to the first-tier tribunal to ask to change from company A to company B as their estate manager. If that is the case, why does it have to go through a tribunal? Why is it not feasible for people to determine that themselves without referring to a tribunal?

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. I recognise the significant body of views in this place and elsewhere about the ability to appoint a right to manage company or a representative directly, and I have certainly heard those concerns. In this case, working within the framework of the proposed legislation, we wanted to ensure that there is a route to allow a manager to be appointed if a landlord refuses to comply. Of course, we would hope that a landlord would not refuse in the first instance.

The Government have also provided in new clause 13 that homeowners on freehold estates can apply to the tribunal for an order to appoint a new manager for the estate if a relevant estate manager has breached the requirement to join a redress scheme. New schedule 1 sets out further provisions relating to the penalties set out in new clause 19. It will require an enforcement authority to give a landlord or freehold estate manager whom they suspect of breaching the requirement to join a scheme a notice of its intention to issue a financial penalty before issuing a final notice. Those who are given a notice by the enforcement authority may make representations. The schedule sets out that where an enforcement authority imposes a financial penalty, it may apply the proceeds towards meeting the costs and expenses incurred in carrying out its functions. Any proceeds that are not so applied will be paid to the Secretary of State.

New clause 21 gives the Secretary of State the power to provide that a future redress scheme provider may apply to a court or tribunal for an order that a decision made under the scheme be enforced as if it were an order of the court. That may be necessary if there is an issue with landlords or freehold estate managers not complying with the redress scheme’s decisions.

New clause 22 makes the necessary provisions for the role of the lead enforcement authority. That is defined by new clause 15 as the Secretary of State, or another person designated by the Secretary of State. New clause 22 provides that the lead enforcement authority will have necessary oversight of the scheme. It also provides that if the Secretary of State decides to designate the role of the lead enforcement authority to another person, the Secretary of State will still have the appropriate power to direct the lead enforcement authority. That includes provisions to make payments and to bring the arrangement to an end.

New clause 23 provides for the Secretary of State to issue or approve guidance for enforcement authorities and the administrator of the future redress scheme about co-operation. It makes clear that the Secretary of State will exercise powers under new clause 18 to ensure that the administrator of the redress scheme has regard to guidance issued or approved under the section. Importantly, the amendment also requires the enforcement authority to have regard to the same guidance. New clause 24 makes necessary provision for the interpretation of this part of the Bill, including the definitions used. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Committee stage
Thursday 25th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Lee Rowley]

I am going to include that in my written response, too, because I know that the specifics of the definition of audit are quite different from other aspects of this question. My understanding is that we will prescribe in secondary legislation what needs to be provided. Given that an accountant will be a part of that, they will have to ensure that the audit conforms to their usual codes of practice. I will write on the specifics to ensure that I have given sufficient information.

[Richard Fuller]

As the Minister is contemplating what he will put in his letter, including a response to the hon. Member for Brent North, could I gently remind him that auditing is an expensive procedure? There will be a number of instances where these accounts might fall short of what would be required under existing Companies House legislation. There are some metrics and things out there that the Government could use, but he should bear in the mind the cost of auditing.

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the reasons why I want to write is that I want to ensure that the specific elements and substantive parts of the concept of audit are represented to the Committee in the most accurate way. We have to strike a balance by ensuring that sufficient information is made available for decisions to be made, but equally we cannot create a process that is so involved, for what I am sure are very good reasons, that it would be disproportionate, and then create a whole heap of new consequences on the other side, which is what we are trying to avoid.

To conclude, new section 21E places an obligation on landlords to provide an annual report. For service charges, that report must be provided within one month of starting a 12-month accounting period, although it can be provided earlier if it is expedient to do so. Both new sections allow the Secretary of State, as we have already discussed, and Welsh Ministers to prescribe the detailed content in secondary legislation. We will work closely with interested parties when we come to do that. Subsections (3) and (4) make consequential changes to the definition of “qualified accountant” under sections 28 and 39 of the 1985 Act to reflect these new sections. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 28 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 29

Right to obtain information on request

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Rowley]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for amendments 19 to 25, with which, as he indicated, he seeks to adds clarity that any sums paid to the leaseholder where there is a failure to comply are a punishment rather than a recompense for loss. As the Committee is aware, clause 30 will replace the existing and ineffective enforcement measures for failure to provide information with new, more effective and more proportionate measures. That includes allowing the leaseholder to make an application to the appropriate tribunal in cases where landlords have failed to provide the necessary service charge information.

It is the Government’s view that the tribunal is the appropriate body to handle such disputes and to determine whether the landlord has failed in their duties, and whether subsequently they are required to pay damages to the leaseholder. In reaching its decision and ordering that damages be paid, the tribunal need only be satisfied on the balance of probabilities that the landlord breached the relevant section. If a financial penalty were applied, the appropriate tribunal would need to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the landlord had breached the relevant section.

While I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point on the use of the term “damages”, I am advised that its use does not mean that evidence of financial loss is required. Therefore, in aggregate, we consider that financially recompensing the affected leaseholder by way of the payment of damages is both a suitable incentive for the leaseholder to bring the application and a suitable deterrent for landlords, while aligning with the tribunal’s powers.

[Richard Fuller]

The Minister speaks quickly and is knowledgeable about this matter; I just want to put it into everyday speak that the rest of us can understand. I think that the intention behind the Opposition’s amendment is to be clear that there is a difference between penalties and damages. They do not want the burden of proof to be on leaseholders, in this case, and there is tremendous merit to that. Whatever we put into law has to be accessible to people. I think the Minister said that if we change the word from “damages” to “penalties”, that would raise the hurdle. Can he assure us of his objection to the proposed amendment in everyday speak,? As the Bill is drafted, the hurdle will be lower, and there will be no burden of proof on the leaseholder for the penalties/damages to take effect.

[Lee Rowley]

As best as I understand it, the situation is exactly as my hon. Friend describes. The threshold is lower, and therefore the provisions are more proportionate, and evidence of financial loss is not required. On that basis, I hope that the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich will withdraw the amendment. I will come to amendment 134 in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I am tempted to frame page 25 of today’s amendment paper, because it includes the shadow Minister’s amendment 17, which would increase the penalties from £5,000 to £30,000, and my amendment 142, which would increase them from £5,000 to £50,000. I thought it was usually the Conservative party that is pro-business and tries to keep costs on business low, but then I recalled that these penalties apply to people doing something wrong, and of course the Labour party is always soft on criminals.

Seriously, though, the shadow Minister and I have a clear intent, which I am sure is shared by the Minister. A lot of the measures in this part of the Bill are trying desperately to unpick complicated things and rebalance them in favour of people who own their own home but do not run a large business, or people with small financial interests, where there are 30 or 40 of them against one person with a significant financial interest that covers all those people. In trying to rebalance things here, we all want to ensure that these measures are as effective as possible and that there is enough encouragement to ensure that the good practice the Government want to see can be done effectively.

The concern that I share with the shadow Minister is that the current levels of penalties just look like a cost of doing business. [Interruption.] Indeed! The hon. Member for Brent North has just slapped himself on the wrist, which is probably how many businesses will see it.

Can I gird the Minister’s loins and encourage him to take up his shield and his sword of righteousness in defence of individual leaseholders and say, “This amount is too low. We shall change the legislation. This party and this Government stand to make the intent of what we will do to truly bite on those who are doing wrong”?

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire and the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich for tabling their amendments. I share their basic conceptual desire, and that of other Committee members, for people or organisations that have done the wrong things to be held to account. There should be penalties that recognise that they have done the wrong thing. The challenge is always going to be where we draw the line.

I recognise that there are multiple parts of the menu on offer. Notwithstanding the very valid points that have been made, it is important not to lose sight of the fact that the Government are doubling the number from £2,500 to £5,000. Individual right hon. and hon. Members will take different views throughout this process and beyond on whether that is proportionate or whether it should be higher or lower. We think we have struck a proportionate balance.

I will add to the record, for consideration, the importance of the potential for unintended consequences. The response will quite rightly be that it will ultimately be for the tribunal to determine how much to apportion and how to use any changed option. There is a scenario in which the potential penalty on the freeholder, or the party being taken to the tribunal, becomes so great and the hazard becomes so visible that the freeholder starts to oppose it with even more objections, difficulties and the like.

I am making quite a nuanced argument, and Members may feel that I am overthinking this, but we have to be cautious not inadvertently to create a process that emboldens freeholders to fight even harder because of the potential hazard and because they feel that they may be exposed to a fine larger than would be reasonable and proportionate. However, I take the point about the challenge of setting the penalty in the right place. The Government’s view is that the increase from £2,500 to £5,000 is a step forward. That is what we are proposing to this Committee. As a result, we will resist the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Rowley]

I apologise for not covering that point; I intended to do so. It is £5,000 per challenge. There is the ability to bring forward multiple challenges. Should that be the case, similar amounts of damages may be awarded.

[Richard Fuller]

Sorry, I am such a pedant, but “per challenge” could relate to person A making the challenge that report x was not done on time, and then person B making the challenge that report x was not done on time. Do those two challenges count as two separate challenges because they are brought by two different people, although they are for the same objection, or as one challenge because they are for the same objection, although they are presented by two different people?

[Lee Rowley]

They are two separate challenges. If a challenge goes to the tribunal and it is deemed that a penalty should apply, for whatever reason or whatever poor behaviour, and a penalty of up to £5,000 is apportioned, and then another person makes the same claim about exactly the same instance, one would logically expect the tribunal to allocate the same penalty. Multiple challenges get multiple fines.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Rowley]

Clause 40 sets out general limitations with regard to estate management charges. Subsection (1) states:

“A charge demanded as an estate management charge is payable…only to the extent that the amount of the charge reflects relevant costs”—

in other words, purely the costs associated with estate management—and cannot be used to fund wider activities. This means that not every cost incurred by an estate manager is chargeable; an example would be if costs arose from the award of damages against the estate manager or an activity outside the estate by the estate manager that is not regulated. Those costs cannot be passed on.

Subsection (2) goes on to set out more detailed circumstances in which costs that are relevant costs may cease to become relevant costs and hence not payable or only partially payable.

[Richard Fuller]

I want to probe a bit more, because of the speed with which we shot through clause 39—with your leave, Chair, I am sure you will find this in order, because clause 40 also relates to relevant costs. Clause 39(10) says that relevant costs,

“in relation to a dwelling, means costs which are incurred by an estate manager in carrying out estate management for the benefit of the dwelling or for the benefit of the dwelling and other dwellings.”

As the Government were considering clauses 39 and 40, the general limitations on what might be a relevant cost, what consideration did the Minister or the Government give to the fact that there are some costs that might be covered within that general limitation that, for some people, are covered by payments they make through their council tax? Therefore, in certain circumstances it may be the case that people are paying twice for the same services covered by what are defined as estate management running costs.

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his point. He tempts me, at this relatively late hour, to get into an extremely important conversation that we will come to in the coming days. With his leave, I will limit my response to acknowledging his broader point, which is potentially broader than simply the discussions here on this Bill. Having listened to the evidence given to the Committee last week, I recognise that this is a key area that those impacted by estate management charges would like to debate further. I know that we will come to this in due course. I am putting that down as a marker for further discussion—I am not sure if I can satisfy him with the discussion, but I will put down a marker for it none the less.

To conclude on clause 40, specifically, subsection (2) refers to the provisions in clauses 41 to 43, which cover the requirement for the reasonableness of estate management costs and broader consultation requirements. Clause 40 provides clarity that not all costs incurred by estate managers may be passed on and sets out circumstances when even chargeable costs are not payable. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 40 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mr Mohindra.)

Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Committee stage
Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Housing, Planning and Building Safety (Lee Rowley)]

This Bill reforms the valuation process for leaseholders when they buy their freehold or extend their lease. It does this by repealing parts of existing legislation and setting out a new valuation scheme that leaseholders and landlords must follow. We are debating a large group of measures, so I am afraid—and I apologise to the Committee in advance—that my comments may be slightly longer than normal, in order to cover all of those.

Clause 9 amends the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, which deals with lease extensions and freehold acquisitions of houses. Subsections (1) to (3) make necessary changes to sections 8 and 9 of the 1967 Act in relation to freehold acquisitions. It mandates the use of clause 11, which sets out the new valuation scheme for calculating the price payable. Subsection (4) applies that to lease extensions for houses. I will shortly come on to that new valuation scheme covered in clause 11, the detail of which is contained in schedule 2. However, these changes introduce the valuation reforms contained in the Bill. I commend clause 9 to the Committee.

Clause 10 makes the necessary changes to the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993, which deals with flats. The clause amends sections 32 and 56, and repeals schedules 6 and 13 of the 1993 Act, which deal with the freehold acquisition of a block of flats and lease extensions of a flat. In a similar way to clause 9, clause 10 mandates the use of clause 11 in determining the price payable for enfranchisement transactions—in relation to flats, rather than houses—and sets out the new valuation scheme for calculating the price payable. I commend clause 10 to the Committee.

Clause 11 provides the basis of the new valuation scheme that must be used to determine the price payable when exercising any of the four enfranchisement rights, which are acquiring the freehold of a house, extending the lease of a house, acquiring the freehold of a block of flats and extending the lease of a flat. The clause sets out that the premium is comprised of two elements: first, the market value, which is to be calculated in accordance with schedule 2; and, secondly, any other compensation, which is to be calculated in accordance with schedule 3.

Schedule 2 details the steps for calculating the price payable for lease extensions and freehold acquisitions. It also contains key reforms to the valuation process, including the removal of marriage value and hope value, capping ground rent at 0.1% of the freehold value in the valuation calculation, and providing the Secretary of State with a power to prescribe two rates used to calculate the premium.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The Minister just mentioned that schedule 2 eliminates marriage value. He will be aware, from the impact assessment, that there is a financial value associated with marriage value. Can the Minister tell me whether the Government think that marriage value is a real value—that it has intrinsic value—or is it just a number that has no material value at all? Is there something behind what marriage value is, and what is the rationale for eliminating it?

[Lee Rowley]

That is an interesting philosophical question to debate straight after lunch. The Government recognise that marriage value is utilised in a number of transactions. Therefore, some people in the market—some individuals, some economic actors—must deem that there is some form of additional value by marrying the lease and the freehold up within a shorter period of time. How that works, what exactly that is, and how expansive it is, is for others and for the market to determine, in a traditional and—something that I think we both would support—a wholly capitalist way. However, there does seem to be something to it, hence why we are making some of the reforms that we are making, given the feedback that we have been given.

[Richard Fuller]

I am grateful to the Minister for his summary, which I think is very accurate. Given that the Government have assessed that there is something real there, and decided that they want to eliminate the marriage value—obviously, a lot of work has gone into the preparation for that—what representations has he received about the legal underpinnings of this particular aspect of the legislation for those from whom that value is being taken?

[Lee Rowley]

The Government remain confident that the proposals being put forward are compliant with their responsibilities. I have only been in post for a short period of time, and my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch may wish to comment on this. The conversations I have had with the people who—I say this without breaking their confidence, given that some of them might be in camera—have come to me to represent their position have not focused on that as the main issue.

Schedule 2 also sets out how to divide the premium into shares, where multiple landlords are entitled to receive a share—for example, where there are intermediate landlords. We will go through that in further detail when we consider schedules 2 and 3. I commend clause 11 to the Committee.

I now turn to amendment 59, which is in my name. This amendment exempts business tenancies which qualify for enfranchisement rights under the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 from the standard valuation method. It is not our intention for the standard valuation method—especially the rent cap—to apply to any business rent, and this amendment closes off that possibility for a relatively rare type of lease where it might otherwise have existed. I commend this amendment to the Committee.

Turning to amendments 62, 63 and 64, which are in my name. Amendment 62 makes minor technical changes to assumption 1 in schedule 2 so that the clause operates as intended. The change to sub-paragraph 15(2)(a) makes the phrasing clear that the clause is about freehold acquisitions. The change to sub-paragraph 15(2)(b) is a minor and technical correction so that where a lease extension is granted by someone other than the freeholder, such as a head lessee, the assumption of merger with the interest of the person granting the extended lease still takes place for the purposes of the valuation methodology for intermediate leases. Amendments 63 and 64 fix typographical errors, by changing the word “property” to “premises”, as the latter is defined.

Turning to amendments 65, 67 and 68 in my name, these make small changes in schedule 2 so that the provision works as it was intended. Amendment 65 clarifies the valuation of the market value of a flat as it is to be used for the purposes of identifying the ground rent cap in the calculation of the term value. Amendment 67 makes a change to ensure that the definition of what is being valued is clear. Amendment 68 clarifies the valuation of the market value of a flat as it is to be used for calculating the reversion.

These amendments are intended to avoid any mis-interpretation of the standard valuation method. Some may mistakenly interpret the schedule as requiring a valuation of a flat as if it were a flying freehold which could cause it to be undervalued. Amendment 68 clarifies the meaning so that what is being valued is the share of the value of the freehold of the whole building and appurtenant property that is attributable to the flat. The amended text will make sure that the standard valuation method is interpreted as we intend it to be. I commend these amendments to the Committee.

Schedule 2 sets out how to apply the new standard methodology when calculating the premium that leaseholders of houses and flats need to pay to extend their lease or acquire their freehold. This includes fundamental reforms to the valuation process, including the removal of marriage value—which we have just discussed—and the capping of ground rent at 0.1% in the valuation calculation. These changes help to fulfil the Government’s aim to make it cheaper and easier for leaseholders to extend their lease or buy their freehold. The schedule is extensive and broken into seven parts.

Part 1 introduces schedule 2 and requires that this schedule must be followed when calculating the market value of the premium for lease extensions and freehold acquisitions for houses and flats. It also sets out how to divide the premium into shares where loss is suffered by multiple landlords. Part 1 also makes clear three definitions for the purposes of this schedule: that of “collective enfranchisement”, “freehold enfranchisement” and “lease extension”.

Part 2 of 7 sets out the basis of the market value for freehold acquisitions and lease extensions. Paragraph 2 does this for freehold acquisitions. It sets out that the market value of the freehold used in calculating the premium is the value of the freehold as if sold on the open market by a willing seller. Paragraph 3 does this for lease extensions. It sets out that the market value of the lease extension used in calculating the premium is the value of the 990-year extended lease, at peppercorn ground rent, as if sold on the open market by a willing seller. Paragraph 4 states that the premium for both acquisitions and extensions is to be determined in accordance with part 3 and on the basis of the assumptions set out in part 4.

Part 3 of schedule 2 sets out that while in general the standard valuation method must be used to determine the value of acquiring a freehold or extending a lease, there are some exceptions. The specific exceptions are set out in paragraphs 6 to 8 and include where the lease has five years or less remaining, where the property is subject to a home finance plan lease and where the lease is a market rack rent lease. For these purposes, a market rack rent lease is where the leaseholder has either paid no premium or a very low price for the lease in return for paying a high rent.

Paragraphs 9 to 11 set out some further detailed exceptions, including where there has been a pre-commencement lease extension of a house for 50 years at a modern ground rent. These paragraphs also explain that the standard valuation method only applies to a relevant flat in collective enfranchisements, where relevant flat excludes, for example, flats with shared ownership leases. Paragraph 12 provides that the standard valuation method can still be used to determine the value of the relevant freehold acquisition or lease extension, even when it is not compulsory to do so. Paragraph 13 makes it clear that the standard valuation method is to be used if either part 3 requires it to be used or where it is used on a voluntary basis in relation to the property being valued.

Part 4 of schedule 2 sets out the assumptions on which the valuation of freehold acquisitions or lease extensions are to be based, whether or not the standard valuation method is being used. Assumption 1 is that intermediate leases and freehold interests are treated as merged for the purposes of valuation where they are acquired in a freehold acquisition or where they are affected by the lease extension claim. The effect of assumption 1 is to simplify the process and lead to savings in process costs and premiums in some cases. This does not apply to intermediate leases that are not acquired. Assumption 2 is that the leaseholder is not, and never will be, in the enfranchisement market, nor will the leasehold and freehold interests by other means be married. The effect of assumption 2 is that no marriage or hope value is payable for either a lease extension or freehold acquisition. This will reduce premiums where leases have 80 years or fewer remaining and remove the cliff edge that leaseholders currently face.

Assumption 3 is that the relevant property is assumed to be in good repair and has not been improved under the current lease. The effect of assumption 3 is to prevent the premium being either decreased in favour of the leaseholder, due to the property being held in disrepair, or increased in favour of the landlord, due to the leaseholder having made improvements. The latter case would result in the leaseholders having paid for the improvements twice. In the case of a freehold house acquisition, assumption 3 will only apply to the current lease, removing the ability to chain together multiple long leases.

Assumption 4 is that where leasebacks are taken, their value is deducted from the freehold value, reducing the premium. Other assumptions can still be made when determining the market value, as long as they are consistent with assumptions 3 and 4 as well as the other provisions of schedule 2. The remaining paragraphs cover circumstances where the premium may have to vary, including to account for burdens or benefits on the title, differing terms in extended leases, leases with five years or fewer remaining, and where leaseholders own their immediately superior intermediate lease.

Part 5 sets out the standard valuation method, which is made up of three steps for lease extensions and freehold acquisitions. Combined with the assumptions set out in part 4, the resulting premium for many leaseholders will be lower than it otherwise would have been where they have leases with 80 years or fewer remaining, or high or escalating ground rents. The first step is to determine the term value, which is the capitalised value of the ground rent payable over the term of the lease. In other words, the landlord is compensated with a lump sum, instead of continuing to receive future ground rent for the remainder of the lease term. Part 7 must be used to determine the capitalised value.

In calculating the term value, a ground rent cap will now apply so that the valuation calculation will cap the ground rent at 0.1% of the freehold value. There are two exceptions. The first is where the leaseholder has paid no premium for the lease. The second is where the lease was purchased for a low premium in exchange for a high rent. In step two, the reversion value is determined. The reversion value compensates the landlord for the loss of the reversion at the expiry of the lease in the case of freehold acquisition and for the delayed reversion in the case of a lease extension.

For freehold acquisitions, the reversion value is the market value of the freehold at the expiry of the lease, discounted at the deferment rate. In a collective enfranchisement, this is calculated for each qualifying leaseholder’s lease. For lease extensions, the reversion value is the market value of a 990-year lease at peppercorn ground rent on the same terms as the new, extended lease and beginning at the end of the term of the current lease, discounted by the deferment rate.

Step 3 requires that the market value of the property determined by the standard evaluation method is found by adding the term and the reversion values in steps 1 and 2, and in collective acquisitions all the relevant term reversion values subject to any adjustments, as provided for in other parts. Part 5 gives powers to the Secretary of State to specify the deferment rate used to calculate the reversion value and includes a requirement to review the rate every 10 years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Rowley]

It is ultimately a balance, as we discussed this morning when talking about the fundamentals in clause 3, I think. We believe that it is proportionate to allow the Secretary of State to make a decision here, but I will be clear now and as we go through the Bill that that should be done only on an occasional basis, hence the reference to the 10-year review period.

[Richard Fuller]

Does the Minister accept that the absence of knowing what will be in the Secretary of State’s mind about what rate he or she may set affects the analysis of what is being done economically with the Bill quite significantly? What thought has he given to the legal challenge risks of holding back what is in the Secretary of State’s mind about what the rates would be?

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. I accept the point that we need to get as much of that information to members of the Committee, the House and the public as quickly as we are able to do so. I know that he and other Members recognise that we have a process that we need to go through in that period, and I hope that we give enough information about the process and changes, although I accept the interaction that he indicates. My hon. Friend is an experienced Member; it is not my intention in any way, but forgive me if I say anything that he knows.

Obviously we must get through the process of working through the legal risk. It is a very contested area—we can see that already. There have already been indications that people will look at it extremely closely, so it would not surprise me if it was looked at extremely closely in most ways. There are potential legal issues on both sides, in that whatever we come out with, any public policy change often or always creates a group of people who do not like it, and they have an ability through due process and the law to see if there is anything in there that they dislike. I guess this is no different, but equally the Government are cognisant that it creates a challenge in this domain. We must go through the process of having the consultation, which only closed quite recently, and giving enough time for that to be considered and transacted on before we come to a conclusion; otherwise, there is potential legal risk there as well.

Part 6 sets out how a premium determined under parts 1 to 5 should be divided among multiple parties, such as intermediate landlords and freeholders. That creates a saving in process costs for leaseholders, as the work of dividing the premium is picked up by the affected parties. The part specifies that the division is made according to how each person’s interest has been devalued or lost by the claim, termed as “loss”. It sets a formula that takes the market value, provided for in parts 1 to 5, multiplies it by that person’s loss and divides it by the total losses of all the parties. Loss cannot include marriage value or hope value, which we are preventing from forming part of the premium.

Finally, part 7 of seven sets out how to calculate the term value—that is, the capitalised value of the ground rent payable for the remainder of the term of the lease. That is a component of the premium, as explained in part 5, under different rent review clauses. Depending on the lease, the ground rent payable may not be subject to review; or it may be subject to review such that the rent payable after the review is known; or it may be subject to a review that makes reference to price inflation, for example, or the capital or rental value of the property. Part 7 is entirely technical and sets out the formulae that apply in each case. The inputs into the formulae are the rent payable, the term for which it is payable and the capitalisation rate. In all cases, where the rent payable exceeds 0.1% of the freehold value of the property, the ground rent cap applies, so that the rent payable is treated as if it is only 0.1% of the freehold value. Part 7 gives a power for the Secretary of State to specify the capitalisation rate used to calculate the term value, and includes a requirement to review that rate every 10 years. I commend the schedule to the Committee.

I turn to schedule 3. As stated in debate on clause 11, schedule 3 sets out when, and to whom, “other compensation” must be paid by enfranchising leaseholders. “Other compensation” is a concept in law; it acts as a top-up payment that landlords and other parties can claim if an enfranchisement claim impacts on their interest. The schedule permits other “reasonable” compensation to be paid in two types of cases. Although it continues an existing practice, it works to ensure that the top-up cannot be used to claim for values already covered by the standard valuation method in part 5.

First, other compensation is available where the enfranchisement claim causes a devaluing of property outside the premises subject to the claim. Secondly, other compensation is available where loss is caused to other property not subject to the claim, but only to the extent that it is referable to a person’s ownership of any interest in other property. If, for example, a landlord owns an unbroken parade of terraced houses and there is a freehold acquisition of one house, the landlord might claim for other compensation if they can demonstrate that the value of the whole parade has been diminished due to one of the houses enfranchising. The schedule sets out that it does not matter whether the landlord had other options, such as leasebacks, but did not take them. It also sets out definitions, such as the meaning of development value. I commend the schedule to the Committee.

I turn to schedule 4, which defines many of the terms used in schedules 2 and 3 that determine the make-up of an enfranchisement premium. It points to different parts of the schedules to demonstrate the meaning of those terms. For instance, the meanings of “term value” and “reversion value” are as described in schedule 2. I commend the schedule to the Committee.

I turn to amendment 72 in my name, which corrects a typographical error in schedule 5 so that the provision works as intended. As a result of the amendment, Paragraph 7(3)(b) of that schedule will require the tenant, not the competent landlord, to pay into the tribunal the whole price payable. That is a new protection that could be used, for instance, where there are valid concerns about the conduct of a landlord handling the claim on behalf of others. I comment the amendment to the Committee.

Schedule 5 makes necessary consequential amendments that help to plug into existing law the new valuation methodology set out in clause 11 and schedule 2. It makes amendments to support the new valuation process in enfranchisement claims that involve multiple landlords, such as intermediate landlords and freeholders. That includes a fallback power, which enables leaseholders to require the transfer of property or grant of a lease, even if the landlords have not yet settled on how to divide the premium. That would be useful, for instance, if multiple landlords were in dispute with each other and it was threatening to hold up the claim.

The provisions also require the premium to be paid to the landlord handling the claim on behalf of the other landlords. They prevent landlords from requiring leaseholders to pay their share directly, as that would undermine the new valuation process where it involves intermediate leases. However, a new protection has been added that permits an individual landlord to require the whole price to be paid into the tribunal. That could be used, for example, where there are valid concerns about the conduct of a landlord handling the claim on behalf of others. With huge gratitude for allowing me to go through all of that, I commend schedule 5 to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. There is always a case for reform in all areas of public policy. I recognise the importance of getting it right on shared ownership. On both sides of the Committee, we share an objective to make sure that this works as best it can, given that it is giving people the opportunity of capital and a new opportunity to be able to acquire that in a way that is not available to them through other means that the market offers. In half-answering the question, which is that there are always things that can be done—obviously I cannot anticipate the great fifth Conservative election victory that is coming or what the manifesto and the outcome may be—but I will certainly take on board the hon. Gentleman’s comments, so that when that election victory comes we can accommodate his suggestion.

Part 1B amends the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993 to make similar changes for flats. New paragraph 5I repeals the current exclusion, and 5K provides that shared ownership leaseholders are qualifying leaseholders for lease extension rights. New paragraph 5J excludes shared ownership leases from collective acquisition rights and gives a power to the Secretary of State to exclude other shared ownership leases from the same where they are not excluded by this section. New paragraph 5M requires leasebacks to the former freeholder of any shared ownership flats subject to a collective freehold acquisition if the former freeholder is the provider. New paragraph 5N deals with the sharing of staircasing premiums between relevant landlords, exactly as new paragraph 5E does for houses. Finally, new paragraph 5P inserts the necessary definitions, as new paragraph 5F did for houses. I commend the amendment to the Committee.

[Richard Fuller]

On a point of clarification, Dame Caroline, are we discussing the other amendments in this group?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I rise in support of my amendments 146 to 149, which, similarly to the shadow Minister’s amendment 2, seek to provide some framework and guidance around, and a better understanding of, how the Secretary of State will determine these very important discount rates. I go back to the point about the importance of trying to give as much clarity as possible about what we are passing into legislation and to avoid unintended consequences. The Minister will be aware that some of the businesses affected may be subject to statutory disclosures. It is very hard to make a formal statutory disclosure if one is not clear what the impact will be. My amendment seeks to provide that.

I want to explain some of the reasons why I have chosen to focus on the issues of market rates and interest, and regional trends. The shadow Minister made some very good points that I am sure the Minister will respond to. It is important to understand that it is always possible for Government to fix market rates and interest, either directly or by the courts, but interest rates do change; the world does change. We can find ourselves adrift on interest rates relatively quickly. The Sportelli judgment, I think, was made at a time when the Bank rate was 4.5%. In that context, the setting of the discount rate did not seem particularly inappropriate. Three years later, the Bank rate went to 0.5% as a consequence of quantitative easing, and stayed like that for seven years. Obviously, it is in the interests of party A for the rate to be set high and in the interests of party B for the rate to be set low, but there is a concern about the rate being fixed without certain guidance.

The shadow Minister has argued that the rate should have regard to the desirability of encouraging leaseholders to acquire their freehold at the lowest possible cost; that fits the imperative that informed the Bill. My view is that we ought to first encourage the Secretary of State to anchor his or her judgment on the market rate of interest—not a specific market rate of interest, but a set of market rates of interest. The reason is that there will be leases of certain terms: five, 10, 15, 30, 50 or 100 years. When someone buys an investment and ties up their money for a longer period of time, they pay a different rate of interest than when they do so for a shorter period of time. It is appropriate for the Government to have regard to that when setting the discount rates. That is why I have tabled this amendment. I am interested to know what the Minister has to say about it.

Amendment 149 is about regional variations in market conditions. The Minister will know that a large part of the Bill relates to London, but not all of it. The way property prices move in Bedfordshire—I see that another Bedfordshire MP, the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire, is here—and in other parts of the country is different from London. Market conditions vary. In order to be fair to participants, it is important that the Secretary of State has regard to regional variations. I hope the Minister can provide some encouraging words on market conditions and tying the discount rate to some form of understanding of market interest rates.

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich and my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire for their contributions. We effectively have two sets of amendments from different sides of the discussion, which demonstrates both the importance and the challenge of getting this right. Before I turn to their points, the question before the Committee is whether we want to put further constraints or further elements into primary legislation, or are content in principle to allow most of them to be covered by the Secretary of State of the day at the time. The Government’s view is that the latter is more proportionate and reasonable. That is why we have come forward with the current proposal. As a result, we will not be accepting the amendments, but I will add a few more comments to try to convince the hon. Gentlemen to withdraw their amendments.

The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich made a number of points on consultation. Although I cannot anticipate or confirm at this stage, I think it is absolutely the case that we would need further discussion and careful consideration of the approach, as I hope we have made clear throughout the debate. On his point about the review every 10 years, the existing judgment has now stood for going on 16 years—I know he knows that, because he has referenced it—and has done so relatively successfully. However, I take his point about tribunals being able to change things. Effectively, this is coming in through a tribunal in the first instance. There is a balance to be struck.

We have put a reference to 10 years in the Bill so that there is a recognition that there would need to be a review—as opposed to an open-ended ability with no indication of when it is used—while being clear that, although it would be for the Government of the day to determine, regular reviews will have potential impacts and potential challenges to the market, and there has to be some form of consistency or clarity in order to give people the confidence to invest and make decisions on an economic basis. The reason we have approached the provision from this angle is both to provide flexibility through the ability to change not being in primary legislation, but also giving guidance that there will be reviews at least every 10 years—albeit not indicating that they should be on a more frequent basis in order not to get into a discussion about whether there is too much movement for consistency and clarity.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire made a number of important points, particularly with regard to his general point about market conditions and the importance of getting that right, and also that there are regional variations. This is another detailed part of the conversation, which the Government seek to move into another discussion rather than being on the face of the Bill. I recognise that sometimes that is not ideal, but one reason we want to preserve flexibility is to give the Secretary of State of the day the ability to respond to market conditions where necessary.

On the first point that my hon. Friend raised, we have been clear from the outset—when the Government announced the reforms—that rates should be set at market value to ensure that the amount landlords are compensated reflects their legitimate property interest. It is important that landlords receive sufficient compensation. To his earlier questions about legality, this is an important safeguard to ensure compatibility with various rights-based legislation, which we talk about extensively in this place.

The Secretary of State will set the deferment rate in secondary legislation. We have been engaging, and continue to engage, with the sector to understand its position to ensure that rates are set in a way that is fair to all those whose property rights are changed and interfered with, and fair to leaseholders. Although I cannot give an indication or a guarantee around regionality, I am happy to say that we want to set the levels at market rates, but also with the recognition that many different elements need to be considered, one of which may be regionality. That is why we need to continue this conversation beyond this discussion. The proposition that the Government are now putting to the Committee is to set these elements in primary legislation and to continue the discussions that my hon. Friend and others have asked for through other means that will come forward in due course.

Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Committee stage
Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Lee Rowley]

I thank hon. Members for their questions and comments, which I will try to address. There is obviously a desire to understand the interaction of the two clauses with the outcome of the consultation that closed last week. We saw to some extent in our deliberations last week, on the first two days in Committee, when we took evidence, that this is a contested area. As a result and notwithstanding the fact that by convention in this place we have the ability to speak freely, I hope the Committee will understand that I will limit my remarks.

I understand the eagerness, enthusiasm and legitimate desire of the Committee to understand the position that we will seek to provide. We will provide that to the Committee, and publicly, as soon as possible. It will not be possible for me to answer all the questions that were asked today. I accept the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire that there is a difference between process and decision, but some elements of the process could be impacted by the decision and it will therefore be difficult to engage in hypotheticals at this stage. However, we will respond to the legitimate points that the Committee has made as soon as we are able to do so.

I agree with the points made by the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich and by my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch about the importance of clarifying how quickly the provisions will come into force. Again, that is a difficult one to answer because we need to get through this process. We have no idea what the other place might or might not do or how quickly the process will go. Although we are all grateful for the confirmation from my Labour colleagues that we are seeking to move this as quickly as possible, it is difficult to be able to answer the question at this stage, but I hope to say more in due course.

On the fourth question posed by the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, about the competent landlord, my understanding is that we are not changing the law in that regard.

[Richard Fuller]

I am listening carefully to the Minister and sort of accept what he says, but may I make a couple of points? First, he has talked about how the Bill has to go through the House of Lords, but we are the democratically elected Chamber. The interaction of the two provisions represents substantial transfers in value between different parts of our community—rightly or wrongly. Decisions should correctly be made with the full information by this House. We should not go through a procedure when information is presented in the unelected House, which then comes back to the Commons. With our remit as Back-Bench Members of Parliament, we are very restricted in what we can do to amend that.

Secondly, the Minister talked about how the points about value are hypothetical. That is the case only because the Government have not made a decision. Once they make a decision, those points of value can be forecast. They are no longer hypothetical but judgmental, so it really is within the Minister’s remit to be able to move from hypothetical to his own forecast. Having said that, I fully accept what the Minister has said so far.

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his legitimate points. He is absolutely right that it is important that right hon. and hon. Members have an opportunity to debate at the earliest possible opportunity the complex interaction of what we may or may not choose to do with the consultation. I take his point about hypotheticals. My point was simply that there are a number of different options in the Bill. Some of them are substantially different, as my hon. Friend indicated in some of his questions last week. To go through all the elements of the potential outcomes in all of those different options would be a substantial amount of work and potentially not necessary on the basis that we are likely to choose some rather than all of them. None the less, where I have missed anything out, I will—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Tuesday 29th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Lee Rowley]

I would be very happy to speak to the Department and come back to the hon. Gentleman on that.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Investment is attracted to areas that have agile, pro-growth regulatory environments. In this country, we delegate a lot of the implementation of regulation to agencies, but the oversight and assessment of regulatory agency performance is weak. Will the Minister look at ways in which we can improve how we regulate the regulators?

[Lee Rowley]

My hon. Friend highlights an important point about getting the balance right between regulation, and ensuring that the output and productivity of these industries works. I would be happy to talk to him more if that is helpful.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lee Rowley and Richard Fuller

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Lee Rowley]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the question. We were disappointed, as he was, by GKN Melrose’s decision. Ultimately, such decisions are for individual companies, but we realise the significant impact on his community and are working with the local community to try to find alternative ways to support employees in the area.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The Minister knows that one of the best ways to promote the onshoring of manufacturing jobs and production to the UK is to shape regulation to support enterprise. What steps has his Department made to take forward the recommendations of the Prime Minister’s taskforce on innovation, growth and regulatory reform?

[Lee Rowley]

We know regulation has a critical part to play in ensuring that we get the frameworks right for long-term investment and support. My hon. Friend will know that one of my colleagues who was appointed alongside me was an author of that report, and the Secretary of State and I, and all Ministers, will continue to review what we can do to improve regulation over the long term.