Ofsted (14 to 17-year-olds)

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and to almost follow the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who, as my hon. Friend said, made a thoughtful and in-depth speech. I share my hon. Friend’s concern that there are not more people here. This is an important subject and should concern every Member of Parliament. I know that not every Member can attend every important debate, but it is sad that there are not more of us here today.

I will speak briefly about my own experience growing up, attending a proper comprehensive school and my time in the classroom as a schoolteacher, and then talk about some of the positive things that are happening in one of the local authorities in my constituency, North Lincolnshire.

I do not want to outdo my hon. Friend, but I went to the worst performing comprehensive in the worst performing local education authority in the country. Like him, I went to school with people who went down a range of different routes. Some of them unfortunately went to prison on more than one occasion—that was just from my class, and we were the top set. Some went into good old proper, traditional apprenticeships, which I am pleased to see this Government have reinvigorated and restored. A small number of us went on to university. It saddened me that in the years after we left, that route to university was taken less and less by those from my school. In the end, our school was closed down on two occasions—it was a cycle of decline. Unfortunately, a lot of this happened before we had the term “NEETs” and before anybody really seemed overly concerned about disengagement.

By the time I started teaching, there was a lot more emphasis on the issue, I am pleased to say, and there has since been a lot more emphasis on different ways of engaging young people. The point the hon. Member for Nottingham North was making throughout his speech is that we need not only a co-ordinated solution—and not a one-size-fits-all solution—but early intervention. We hear about that all the time. The statistics are quite appalling: if we cannot get to a kid by the time they have started school, it is often too late to recover them.

I saw that both as a secondary schoolteacher and then, up to the day I was elected to this place, as a primary schoolteacher. They are very different jobs, but doing both really convinced me of the case for early intervention. When I was a secondary schoolteacher, we would sometimes be thinking, “What have they done to them in primary school to result in us ending up with this?” I realised as a year 1 teacher that unfortunately the battle was often lost before children even got into primary school. I would strongly endorse any strategy that identifies—as indeed the troubled families initiative and others do—families whose children are at risk of failing pre-school.

In my own area, we have tried to address some of the problems connected to literacy and to get kids to sit down with their parents through launching a project called the imagination library. That project was started some time ago by Dolly Parton, who comes from a family in which illiteracy was normal. It was first launched in the UK in Rotherham; the Labour leader of Rotherham council, Roger—unfortunately I have forgotten his last name—was the first man to bring it here. I took the project to North Lincolnshire council, which agreed to fund it.

Every child under the age of five receives a book in the post every month, and the scheme is properly integrated into the children’s centres in the local authority—an excellent local authority that has not closed a single children’s centre and indeed has expanded some services such as library services. Everything, including the children’s services and library services, is tied in together. Every child is now getting a book in the post every month and getting support from the children’s centres, so that by the time children get to school they have some of the basics. That is really important for their progress through school, but more important is that parents are tied into their child’s educational attainment in literacy very early on.

In the part of my constituency covered by a different local authority, East Riding of Yorkshire council, we have unfortunately not been able to secure council funding, but I run the scheme in Goole myself and raise the money for it. In North Lincolnshire, over 7,000 kids are signed up now, but the number in Goole is unfortunately a bit smaller. After the scheme had been running for a year, we did a feedback survey; I got a letter from a parent of one the children saying that having the books in the post every month was really great because there was a focused thing every month when the family sat down and talked about books. She also said that her own reading had been pretty poor, but the scheme had really helped her and she felt confident that she could help her own children. That is just one example of how we can engage with families early on to ensure that they buy in properly to their children’s education. When I was teacher, we always used to say that the one thing worse than the children was the parents, but the saddest thing I used to see was the parents who never engaged.

[Justin Tomlinson]

My hon. Friend is as ever delivering a powerful speech. When I visited some of the more challenging schools in my constituency, they echoed that comment about parents not wishing to engage. That is a further reason for using school facilities during the summer, as it would allow children to be in a constructive environment rather than one in which they are simply abandoned in front of the television.

[Andrew Percy]

Absolutely—I entirely endorse what my hon. Friend says. There are some parents who, if they have not achieved at school or school was a particularly bad place for them, remain intimidated by teachers or by school. In some cases, there is a sort of embarrassment—I have seen this myself—because they feel as if they are going to be tested and they know their own reading and literacy skills are really poor. Consequently there are some who are almost embarrassed if their children do better than them and so are disengaged from their children’s education. That is one of the saddest things to see. I entirely endorse anything that means we can bring parents in so that the school buildings become their buildings—for example, by putting on adult literacy and numeracy courses, as happens in a lot of places. Whatever, it is all for the better.

Moving up to secondary school, I agree entirely with the comments of the hon. Member for Nottingham North on the changes around equivalency. I taught in a really tough school in Hull, and I was appalled that, despite my protestations, which saw me dragged into the head teacher’s office, we went down the route that I call the GNVQ fiddle. That is exactly what it is. I had children who wanted to do my subject, history, at GCSE but were told they could not because they were not going to achieve a C, and consequently they were forced on to GNVQ media studies. Now, I do not disparage GNVQs at all, and perhaps GNVQ media studies was an entirely appropriate course for some young people, but when it was not their course of choice, and these things were done purely to get the figures up, something is seriously wrong with the system.

What happened when we started allowing the GNVQ fiddle? The school’s figures went through the roof, but as soon as the measure changed again, they plummeted—I think we recorded a pass rate of about 60% one year, but that plummeted to 15% or 16% when the measure changed. We were therefore absolutely right to remove what was clearly a way of fiddling the league tables. However, I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern that the pendulum should not swing too far the other way so that we concentrate only on traditional academic subjects. That was my concern about the EBacc when it was first introduced—that it would become the primary measure, whatever statements were made at the time.

This is not about not having aspirations for young people, but about what is best for their futures. I always give the example of foreign languages in the school I taught in. When I taught at Kingswood, in Bransholme, in Hull, the French department was above my classroom—I certainly knew it was, because of the way my projector used to shake. A lot of people could not engage in French language classes because they lacked the basic literacy skills to engage in English, let alone a foreign language. Often, the message that came back from home was, “Why do you need to learn French? It’s no use round here. Everyone should speak English.” Unfortunately, those children were instantly set up to fail. It would be lovely if they could all achieve at Latin, but unfortunately some of the changes we have seen set some young people up to fail. We need flexibility so that we have proper child-centred education—I know that is a bit of a cliché—and a curriculum that is appropriate for every child.

We are quite right to change how we measure achievement in schools—equivalence and the rest of it—and to want the best for every child. However, what I also saw in my school was that children were written off if they were going to deliver more than five GCSEs at grade C or above for the school. There is a balance to be struck, and something needs to be done to push those children too. There were problems at both ends, and we need to make sure that we do not, as the hon. Gentleman said, allow the pendulum to swing too far.

I want to talk now about a couple of things happening in North Lincolnshire. I am pleased the NEETs figure has been going in the right direction for the past few years. Obviously, North Lincolnshire forms part of the Humber region, which unfortunately has a very low skills base. That is one of the biggest risk factors on the local enterprise partnership’s risk register in terms of bringing in new investment. New investment is coming from Siemens, and one of the company’s big concerns has been about the local skills base. The Humber has some wealthy areas, but also some very challenging areas in places such as Hull, Scunthorpe, Goole and Grimsby. There is a job of work to be done in north Lincolnshire, and I want to talk about a couple of projects.

One thing the local authority has done, which I am very pleased about, is to completely reform and reinvest in youth services. It is not often that local authorities spend more on youth services. It was a painful process to go through, and the Labour opposition was, unfortunately, very anti the proposal to spend more money. The Conservative council reversed the previous council’s cuts of £137,000 to youth services and has actually increased the youth service budget by £200,000.

We also moved away from the traditional in-house model. One of the biggest opponents of the changes said that that model had worked for 40 years, but that defence tells us everything we need to know about why the system was not working—it had not changed for 40 years. It was bizarre that people protested at the council spending more on something, but we got through that. We now have a range of different providers, targeted at every young person but especially trying to engage those who are most at risk of becoming NEETs. We have got Streetbeat in, we have street sport and we have theatre groups. We still have all our youth centres, and not a single one will be closed, because they still have a role to play. We need fixed places, but we need something flexible too. The number of young people engaging with the youth service has increased substantially. The change may not have been popular with the youth workers we had at the time, but the proof of the pudding is always in the eating.

In North Lincolnshire, the employability skills framework has been launched. The scheme targets young people to make sure that they have the CBI’s seven essential skills. There is also the raising aspirations project—it is in the Barton area for now—under which primary schools develop their curriculum to include a real focus on enterprise. We also have the September guarantee and the engagement panel, and business links are improving. The local authority is also providing free careers advice and guidance to most vulnerable young people, which chimes with what the hon. Gentleman said. Most schools buy in additional services.

There is plenty more I could say, but I am aware of the pressure on time. I would just add that external careers guidance is really important, and we need to look at how we require schools—or do not require them—to buy it in. There is a risk of conflict where schools expand to include sixth forms, as is happening in my area. I entirely agree with such moves, because it is important that young people can continue their education in the place most appropriate to them, but there is a risk that too many young people will be pushed in a particular direction, so we must have a real emphasis on proper external careers advice that gives young people a full range of options.

I should add that people in my area are delighted to have a university technical college coming to Scunthorpe. We hope that that will not only regenerate the town centre, but transform the choices available locally for young people.

Finally, I welcome the Minister to his post. I forgot to do so at the beginning, which was terribly rude of me.

Payday Loan Companies

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Monday 20th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. If she can just be patient, I will be heaping huge amounts of praise on her shortly.

The second thing I would like to see is real-time credit checking. The industry wants that because, despite a lot of the rumours, it relies on people being able to pay back the money they have borrowed. It would help to avoid somebody going into one shop and 15 minutes later going into another one. The credit checking agencies follow the traditional monthly banking system, so in theory somebody can wreak damage on themselves in the course of a month before the banks catch up. The industry says that it wants real-time credit checking; the credit agencies say they would like to offer it but that it is very complicated. One of the smaller operators, Call Credit, has got 10 operators signed up, but it will not be 100% participation. The Government will therefore have to empower the FCA to demand this. We are getting close to it, and it exists in some forms in America. It will make a huge difference because it will protect people from taking out multi-loans and allow the FCA to enforce affordability checks so that lenders who are lending to people who cannot afford it can be dealt with.

I would like to go one step further in ensuring that people can rebuild their credit rating. When someone has been turned down for a loan by one of the mainstream banks, the payday lending industry is often the only one that is prepared to take the risk with them. If they pay back the loan properly and on time, they should then have their credit rating repaired, allowing them to re-enter mainstream traditional lending.

There is a perception that the products, prices and requirements placed on people pushed them away from mainstream banking into a more modern, innovative industry that was responding to the situation. Mainstream banking has to take a long look at itself to see how it can adapt to a changing world. I fully support the fantastic work that my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) has done on credit unions as an alternative for people. It might not be the total solution but it is certainly a very important part of the process.

On debt advice, which will be debated tomorrow in Westminster Hall, I fully support the levy, and I think the industry does as well. The Nationwide building society carried out a survey showing that 91% of people who get into financial difficulty say, “If only I had known better.” We see this in our casework. People who have got into difficulty come to see us with their carrier bags of unopened envelopes, and they need face-to-face, patient help. At the point where they go to get one of these loans, it would be helpful to have well-advertised information about how they can access free, independent debt advice, with a freephone telephone number.

Under the licence to operate, it costs lenders about £2,000 to get set up. A particularly bad, unscrupulous lender can wreak all sorts of damage before the FCA, or formerly the OFT, will have had time to do something about them. Unfortunately, some of these operators on the very fringes of the market will take advantage of the potential two-year window to do whatever they want before being taken down, and will then spend more money to get themselves back up the Google search engine listings.

The FCA needs to be extremely proactive in terms of mystery shoppers. Often the consumers who get themselves into the most difficulty are vulnerable people who are least equipped to raise it with us so that we can chase things up. This particularly applies to doorstep lending, as I have said in previous debates. With that lending model, the lender befriends someone, gains their trust, goes into their house every month, and could encourage them to borrow more. They might say over a cup of tea, “Have you sorted out your Christmas presents? If not, don’t worry, because we could provide the money for that, and why don’t you get your carpet sorted out if you’ve got your family coming round—that’s only another £3 a week.” We need to have mystery shoppers to check that the operators are sticking to the rules.

I championed the desire to get financial education on to the statute book, and I am delighted that the Government are implementing that in 2014. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire said, things will now change. This is about equipping the next generation of consumers with the skills to be able to make informed decisions—not moralising on those decisions but enabling them to make the mathematical calculations.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to mention financial education. It is good that we have got that on to the curriculum, and it was a good campaign, but we also need to make sure that it is covered in teacher training. I used to be a teacher, and I would be the last person to give advice on financial literacy, as people will know from my previous speeches. We have to make sure that teachers are trained properly in how to deliver this.

[Justin Tomlinson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely spot on. From his experience as, I am sure, a wonderful teacher, additional training would make a real difference. It is important that the Government tie that in with the national curriculum to be introduced in September.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) was also spot on about adult literacy. We cannot just wait for future generations to filter through; people are making bad decisions now because they simply do not have the capabilities to do anything else.

As a country, we need to encourage a savings culture. I sometimes worry that we all—we are all as bad as each other—want everything tomorrow, but it is sometimes not such a bad thing to wait.

The cost of credit is being looked at, and we are absolutely right to consider the total cost. We should look not just at the crude APR measurement, but at the fees, the cost of roll-overs and things such as bank overdrafts. Some of the charges I have seen equate to about 80,000% APR. The hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) made some good points about fees and roll-overs, and we should continue to push on those matters.

Finally, we just have to recognise the need to be flexible. The industry will continue to change: when we started to look at limiting roll-overs of loans, it began to extend loans. The market will keep changing, so we have to be quick on our feet.

Financial Education

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Thursday 15th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. That was part of the evidence that we considered, but that was a rather simplistic description of what happened in the wash-up. That was not a stand-alone issue, and we referred to that in the report.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

We did indeed look at that issue but was it not the case that we were not convinced from the start about simply putting financial education into PSHE? We wanted to discuss examinations and mathematics and all the rest of it, which is why we have come up with a solution that I think is much better than that offered before the election.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Absolutely. It was important to include that as part of the evidence, but as we are about to set out in our recommendations, it was not the conclusion that we came to.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Thursday 31st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

Although I was not a member of the Committee, I declare an interest as the vice-chair of the all-party leisure group and a former nightclub manager. I spent a number of years in the late-night economy, and I stress that 99.9% of people who go out and enjoy their time in the evenings are good, responsible people out for an office party, leaving do or birthday party. The problems are all about dealing with the small minority.

One reason why I wished to speak was to make a point about transparency. It is in the interests of venues to have a safe environment, and the licensing authority can ensure that. I wish to make a few points about the late-night levy. I have met a number of representatives of venues, and of course nobody likes paying extra money, but it is very much in their interests that the money from the levy is used to create a safe environment. I should like the venues to have a greater opportunity to help to shape how the money is spent. My understanding is that local authorities will receive 30% of it and 70% will go to the police. The venues, which pay that money, should help to shape that decision. Ultimately, the final decision should be for the police or the local authority, because they are the ones who are accountable, but the venue owners see the situation at first hand.

In the areas where I worked, I saw that when people were enjoying themselves, they were generally well behaved, but when they wanted to go home, they found themselves unable to do so. I would therefore have suggested that the money from the levy be spent on a taxi rank co-ordinator in my area, so that people could get home swiftly and efficiently. In other areas, the venues might suggest that there should be better lighting, because generally, where there is good visible access there is a lot less trouble than in areas with only a handful of people around, which are not so well policed. My plea is that the Government ensure that there is transparency, and that venues that contribute to the late-night levy have a say.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I come at the matter from a different viewpoint from my hon. Friend’s, because I used to be the chairman of the licensing authority in the city of Hull. Transparency is important on the late-night levy, and on fees in general, but do we not have to ensure that we get the split right, too? When I was the licensing chairman, many of the solutions to problems in the late-night economy came from the council rather than from the police. We should therefore keep the percentage split under review at all times.

[Justin Tomlinson]

That is a valid point, and my hon. Friend speaks with first-hand experience and authority. The layout of the night-time economy is different in every town, which means that each town creates unique challenges that either the local authority or the local police must challenge. That is why I keep coming back to the need to ensure that venues feed into the system. The people who run them will know where the minority of people are generating problems.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

I had not intended to speak in this debate, but it is about an issue in which I am quite interested, given my former role as chairman of the licensing authority in Hull, one of the two councils in East Yorkshire. My coalition colleague, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), stole some of my thunder, proving that on this issue we are a happy coalition.

I chaired the licensing authority in Hull for a number of years, at the time when powers were transferred to us from the justices, so I was involved in writing the city’s licensing policy. It was clear from the beginning that the powers that we had been given were insufficient. In some ways, I understood why the Government had come up with a solution, given the national outcry at the time and the problems that we had all read about. However, when I sat down with our council officers and said, “Alcohol disorder zones—what’s your advice?”, they said, “We’re not going to go anywhere near them, and we doubt anyone else will.” It would have taken some time for alcohol disorder zones to become effective, but it was clear from the beginning that they were incredibly bureaucratic and would not be introduced in any part of England. Indeed, we have had similar problems with cumulative impact zones, which the local authority in Hull has twice rejected, and on very much the same grounds—the unfairness that could be meted out to premises with no problems at all, but which could none the less be drawn into such zones.

I take the point made by the shadow Minister—my near neighbour, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson)—about the late-night levy. In many ways, I understand the Government’s intentions. Indeed, when I was a licensing chairman, all we wanted was a little more power—as all councillors and politicians always do—to do something about the premises with which we knew we had repeated problems. At the time, we could not always rely on the police to make review applications, and we could do little with the review applications that we received from residents, because the weight of evidence that they put was insufficient, so we do need something.

I have concerns, however, particularly—as the shadow Minister said—in areas such as the East Riding of Yorkshire, or in the other part of my constituency, in north Lincolnshire. A late-night levy could draw in the Percy Arms—the pub four doors from my house, in a small, quiet, East Riding village—at the same time as nightclubs in Bridlington and Withernsea, which seems a little unfair.

Indeed, that would be unfair in a city as well. In Hull, as well as in Scunthorpe and other towns in our area, the problems are generally in the town or city centre, yet pubs in the suburbs or outside the city could also be drawn into the levy. I therefore support the suggestion made by Members in all parts of the House, including by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge, that we should think carefully about how to apply the levy. I understand the Government’s intention, and I agree with the early-hours orders, which could be particularly effective. However, we need to ensure flexibility in the system. In my time as a licensing chairman, we wanted a bit more power to do something against certain premises. However, as with all legislation, we need to ensure that we do not draw in premises that are innocent of any trouble. Like the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), I would urge the Government to give an assurance that the provisions will be reviewed at some time in the future.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Obviously I have already covered some of this issue with my earlier comments on the late-night levy, but the buzz word that is coming across is greater flexibility. A number of Members have highlighted possible solutions to the problems of setting boundaries, but I think that the only way to set a boundary is to be venue-specific. Venues that conduct themselves in the right manner need an incentive. It has been suggested that venues in the East Riding with no history of problems, which do everything by the rule book and are nowhere near the problem areas, could be caught by the provisions. If we adopted more specific boundaries, we might have a ward boundary between two different establishments, with the well-behaved one on the wrong side of the boundary.

Fuel Prices and the Cost of Living

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I can assure the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) that I am not a millionaire. I would, in the words of Travie McCoy, quite like to be a billionaire, but I do not expect that will happen. There are plenty of rich people on the Opposition Benches—people in glass houses and all that.

We should begin by recognising that over the past couple of decades, Governments of all shades have hiked up fuel duty and, broadly, people have been in general agreement with that because it has been seen as a green tax. That is why it was created. An injection of honesty is needed to counteract the feigned anger that has suddenly appeared and the damascene conversion that has taken place among Opposition Members. Everybody supported fuel duty rises over the year, and their position lacks credibility.

I agree with much that is in the Opposition motion. We all have concerns about fuel costs. Obviously I do not agree with the part that asks us to do something that is illegal under EU law. My radical solution to that would be to leave the European Union, but that is a debate for another day. Before we accuse the Opposition of cynicism, it is incumbent on those of us on the Government Benches to prove that the pledges we made at the general election were not cynical. That is why I look forward to the Budget, on which the Chancellor and Chief Secretary are working so hard, and I look forward to the answers on fuel duty. I hope they include a fair fuel duty stabiliser.

I dished out leaflets to the good voters of Brigg and Goole—hounded them with leaflets, one might say—on the fuel duty stabiliser. I supported it, knowing of the work that had gone into that policy at Conservative central office. I look forward to the Budget next week, when I hope we will hear more details about stabiliser. The price of fuel is having a massive impact on my constituents across north Lincolnshire and east Yorkshire. I note the proposals in relation to the islands and I heard the comments from the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). He has been a passionate advocate on behalf of his constituents. I would say to him if he were here—I know that he is off trying to save coastguards, and I wish him the best of luck on that too—that the effect of fuel prices is not limited to the islands.

Constituents such as mine have to travel an awful long way to their places of work. I represent a largely rural constituency, and most of my constituents travel considerable distances, whether to Lincoln, Leeds, Hull, York or Doncaster. Much of the time they sit in traffic, which is not good for fuel consumption, I am told. The pressures that affect the islands of Scotland and the Scilly Isles affect our constituents too.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I echo the comments of my hon. Friend. My constituency, North Swindon, has a considerable number of commuters who have no choice but to travel by car. The increased fuel costs impact on them as well.

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. What we are both saying is that if any solution is applied to one part of the United Kingdom, it must be applied to other parts of it as well. If we are all about fairness, as I am sure we are, it must be a solution that is fair to everybody in the United Kingdom.

Independent Debt Advice

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Percy]

I think we are getting bogged down by this. Training our staff and ourselves so that we can guide people in the correct direction for debt advice is probably more important now than ever, and that is the exact point that I was trying to make.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Andrew Percy]

We seem to be getting bogged down, but I will give way one more time before making some progress.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. In the spirit of trying to work together and helping Opposition Members, we need to be clear that this strengthens the argument for citizens advice bureaux. Help on the telephone and online cannot help provide training to other people who assist the most vulnerable. That supports the argument.

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Perhaps Opposition Members will now reflect upon what some of us on this side of the Chamber are trying to do.

I shall move away from the help and assistance that I am trying to ensure that my staff are able to give people who contact me, and on to some of my concerns. The move away from a face-to-face debt advice service to a telephone or internet-based service has already been commented upon. I have bitter personal experience of debts. A few years ago, I tried to access assistance on some debts and, as much as I do not like to air my washing in public, it was incredibly difficult to access the correct advice on where to go with particular problems. I accrued debts through funding my postgraduate studies, as is the case with many people—in no way am I alone in that. [Interruption.] It was postgraduate education, which has had fees for a considerable number of years and is not affected by any current changes. It was incredibly difficult to access advice on where to go. As the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North has said, it is not always easy to interact properly with someone in a telephone conversation, and it is difficult to talk about one’s personal financial situation. Talking with somebody over the telephone is no substitute whatsoever for talking with someone face to face.

In support of the point made by the hon. Member for Makerfield, when searching for debt advice, particularly online, it is unclear who provides it at a profit to themselves and who does not. If a company calls itself a national debt or advice helpline, the natural assumption is to conclude that it is a charity, when in fact, as others have commented, it is out to make profits from people’s debts.

School Governance

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Tuesday 1st February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Percy]

That is absolutely vital. When we had a debate on disadvantaged children, I pointed out that in some ways pastoral care has been sidelined in recent years. Pastoral care is more important than ever, particularly where behaviour is concerned, and we all agree that we want to reduce the amount of exclusion.

I am straying a little from the topic, but I point out to the Minister that one of the biggest sadnesses of the changes in recent years is that classroom teachers, particularly in secondary schools, have often had their pastoral roles taken away and handed to other people in the school—albeit those people are often very capable—including learning mentors and teaching assistants. I have always believed that classroom teachers are not just educators but part-time social workers, occasionally parents and sometimes, depending on the class, just childminders. We have a multiplicity of roles as classroom teachers, and we have been losing our role in pastoral care. Hopefully, the Minister has heard my pleas on that issue.

I have identified some of the problems that I see at the moment, which I am good at, but I am not quite so good at identifying the solutions, which is why I do not hold ministerial office—that is a job for Ministers. The time has come, however, to question whether school governance arrangements work as they should, and if I had a solution, it would be, as I have said, to encourage federation.

[Justin Tomlinson]

My hon. Friend has made an exceptionally thoughtful contribution based on his experience in the teaching environment. Does he see federating schools as adding to governors’ time commitments, or will that approach reduce them because the work load is spread out?

[Andrew Percy]

That is a difficult question. In some respects, federating would lessen the burden, because some people who join governing bodies want to take on that strategic role regarding the direction of the school but do not necessarily want to be engaged in the nitty-gritty. I have sat on governing bodies where it has been about who can outdo the others and who has been in the school the most, but that does not mean that that person has necessarily been the most effective governor. There is a role for both kinds of governor, which might be achieved through federation. You can have governors who give their expertise to the strategic direction of education in a particular area, and you can have others who play the community role or a much more involved role in a particular school. That is something that we need to look at.

I will not speak for much longer, because I know that other hon. Members wish to contribute. I associate myself with many of the thoughtful comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon, who has a great deal of experience in this area. I am sorry that I will not be here to listen to the Minister, but I will, of course, read his speech in Hansard tomorrow.

Treasury

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

First, I wish all a wonderful Christmas.

As my contribution has been transferred from the education category to the Treasury category, I will take full advantage of the Treasury’s love of statistics and utilise them well in my speech. As my requests are generally related to the Department for Education, with a sparkling of festive spirit it will be nice and easy to secure agreement on all my requests.

I strongly believe that we have a duty to ensure that young people are equipped to make informed financial decisions. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), who made an excellent speech on the subject. I have been working with the Personal Financial Education Group, the Consumer Financial Education Body, and Martin Lewis of www.moneysavingexpert.com to set up an all-party parliamentary group on financial education for young people.

The purpose of the APPG will be to provide a medium through which MPs, peers and organisations with an interest in financial education can discuss the current provision on financial education in schools; ensure that young people are equipped to make informed financial decisions; help make resources and qualifications available to young people in education; support schools in the delivery of financial capability; and encourage the introduction of a requirement on schools to provide financial education.

Recent studies have shown that 94% of people think that financial education for young people is important in the current environment. Society is changing, making financial education ever more important. This year for the first time we saw that debit card use overtook the use of money. Long gone are the days when people were paid weekly in cash and were able to budget to the point where they ran out of money. We now have more direct debits, more standing orders and more contracts. Having been a councillor for 10 years before becoming an MP, I saw among the residents whom I represented that many of those unfortunate enough to lose their job would quickly be overwhelmed by the outgoings from their bank account, even when they thought that they were not spending any money.

We receive increasingly complicated marketing messages. One point that was highlighted to me was the worrying number of people who think the higher the APR, the better. Young people will never be able to get 100%-plus mortgages or to repair past financial mistakes through rising house prices and start again. In these challenging economic times, 69% of parents are concerned that their children will get into debt in the future. Less than a quarter of parents feel very confident about educating their children in how to manage money.

This was brought home to me last Friday when I and my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), with whom I share an office, held a training day with Citizens Advice, R3 and Nationwide building society to train us as MPs and our staff in how to deal with people who are in financial difficulty. Sixty per cent. of Citizens Advice’s work relates to debt and benefits, with the average client owing £16,970, which would take an average of 93 years to pay off at a rate that they can afford. I am sure all MPs share my concerns about the impact of debt. Interestingly, 91% of those who admitted to financial mistakes believe that financial education could have helped them avoid making those mistakes. I am sure a few MPs were included in that survey.

I believe schools have an essential role to play, and that is widely supported. Some 91% of teachers and parents agree that it is important that children learn to budget from a young age.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the cracking work he is doing in establishing the APPG. Does he agree that what we need to do better in schools is not only encourage young people to take qualifications, but mainstream financial education into the curriculum? One idea from a head teacher at Goole was that we should include it on the curriculum as part of functional maths.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point. He has already put his name on the APPG list, and he will have a very important role to play in it. I hope many other MPs will put their names down too. Through working with teachers and teacher organisations, we will find the best way to engage with young children. Young people will support that too, as 97% of 11 to 17-year-olds think it is important to learn about money in school. School provision for personal financial education is still patchy, however, and 72% of parents think not enough has been done in the past to educate children about financial matters.

While there are many examples of excellent work, often led by the PFEG or banks and building societies, far too many schools have no, or extremely limited, provision. Through the APPG, we want to drive up standards and participation. Ideally, all children should have access to standard, consistent and engaging provision, but in the meantime we must do all we can to maximise participation.

My Christmas wish is for Members to join the APPG. I am sure all Members have their pens poised, so I will inform them that the group’s official launch will be on 31 January between 4.30 pm and 6.30 pm in the Jubilee Room, with Martin Lewis from MoneySavingExpert. I am aware that piles of Christmas cards will currently be covering hon. Members’ desks, but among them is an invitation—it will already have landed—so I ask them to keep an eye out for it.

As part of the group’s work, we will be looking to promote a balanced response. There are many different challenges ahead. Everybody is broadly supportive, but we must progress in a way that everybody can get behind and support. We have therefore been working with over 30 organisations, including banks and building societies, financial institutions, charitable organisations, schools and teaching organisations and, as I have said, Martin Lewis of MoneySavingExpert with, crucially, his 6.4 million subscribers, who will be encouraged to support this scheme.

At Christmas families face the greatest temptation to make the wrong financial decisions, so now would be a great time for us to make a difference. We should imagine what a difference it would make to our casework if people were able to make better and more-informed decisions.

Outdoor Learning

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on securing the debate on this hugely important matter. It is timely, as it was only about three weeks ago that I was on Goole moor, in my constituency, meeting Natural England to highlight the opportunities for our local schools on that nationally important nature reserve. Following that, I have worked with our fantastic head teacher at Goole high school to find innovative ways of using the moor and the site for educational and health purposes.

As a former school teacher, I would like to appeal to the Minister over the Ofsted framework; if something is going into the framework, can there be a one-in, one-out principle or, preferably, a one-in, two-out principle? There are huge pressures on teachers already from the inspection regime, and, due to how the profession is structured, naturally, we tend to teach towards Ofsted, rather than the young people whose education we are there to enhance. I make that small appeal to the Minister.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire on his knowledge of the teacher training process. Although trainee teachers are required to prove that they can organise and undertake a trip as part of their postgraduate certificate in education, it is normally a well structured trip to a museum, so they do not come away from the training with particular skills in organising trips outside. There are so many pressures on teachers in terms of advice, risk assessments, and so on, that it can be incredibly difficult to organise trips outside the classroom.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way on that point. One problem is the cost of minibus insurance for teachers. If something could be done about that, it would make a considerable difference. It often costs more than £1,000, and is a particular barrier to short trips to local open spaces.

[Andrew Percy]

That is absolutely key, because there are huge costs, and other pressures such as extra staff. When I was training as a history teacher and doing my final teaching practice at Endeavour high school in Hull, we were studying the industrial revolution. The area I taught in had a fantastic outside resource in its buildings from the industrial revolution period. I simply wanted to take my class of year 8s outside to look at some of those buildings, but I was told that I would have to do a risk assessment and get three members of staff, because there were 30 kids in the class and the ratio has to be 1:10. By the end of the day, those kids were running home across those same streets and past those same buildings, but we did not go out and ended up sitting in the classroom looking at pictures instead. Although the teaching profession can certainly do more to enhance outside learning, we need the structures in place to support them and we need to remove some of the pressures. Following some of the sensationalised reports in the press about school trips, my former union advised us not to take them, which, again, is a reaction to all this bureaucracy.

Outdoor education has a particular role for excluded children and children with special needs. As any teacher has to, I have worked with children from across the spectrum. It was often the most challenging children who benefited most from being taken outside the formal school setting—where they were still learning. I referred to this during my maiden speech; it is expensive to deliver education outside the classroom, but, for those children, the value of doing so cannot be quantified. I have seen kids go off on particular courses outside the classroom and come back significantly changed, so that education has a particular role. As the Minister is about to undertake a review into special and additional needs, I hope that that can be taken into account.

With a change in curriculum, the Government have, rightly, outlined how we intend to move to more vocational or joint pathways. There are huge benefits and opportunities not only for visits but to get skills outside school. I was talking to Natural England on the nationally important nature reserve—I will plug it once again—about potentially putting a curriculum together, which kids could access from our local schools, on countryside management. There are not only health benefits, which my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire rightly highlighted, but educational benefits.

Local Government Funding

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Monday 6th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy]

I will give way in a moment to my train colleague; we sometimes catch the same train.

Lots of references have been made to going back to the 1980s, or to the 1970s and “Life on Mars”, but some of the contributions have been like listening to “The Twilight Zone”. In my 10 years serving as a councillor under the previous Labour Government, I seem to recall the picture not being quite as rosy as that painted by Labour Members. We have heard many comments about Conservative and Liberal councillors criticising this Government’s settlement, although we do not know what it is yet. In my 10 years on the council, Labour, Liberal and Conservative councillors tended to criticise the settlement coming forward from any Government. That is the way of local government, largely because the formulae are so complex that there is always something that one is not happy with in any settlement.

When I was a local councillor, our authority went through a number of assessments, first, through the corporate governance inspection regime, and later through the comprehensive performance assessment regime. Labour Members cannot possibly be defending the millions of pounds that went into those schemes. I will explain what those schemes did to a city council such as Hull, which at the beginning of the Labour Administration had some of the most deprived communities in the country, and still had them 13 years later. If hon. Members want to carry out a value-for-money analysis of that, I will leave it to them to do so. The decisions that we were forced to take as a result of going through the CGI process cost our city council millions of pounds over those 10 years.

The council, which was Labour-run, was judged to be a failing council. There was some fair criticism, no doubt, but I do not know whether we needed the expensive regime process that came in to tell us that the authority was not necessarily being run as it should be. One of the most appalling recommendations that followed the CGI process was that we should appoint five corporate directors, but they were not to be employed on the same salary as our previous service area directors—no, we were to employ five corporate directors on salaries of £105,000.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Like my hon. Friend, I served for 10 years as a councillor. I fully echo his point, given the number of times that we were encouraged, following inspections, to spend huge sums of money on members of staff just to prove that we were heading in the right direction.

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. This is not something that my council experienced on its own—it happened across the country, as we know.

As I said, we were expected to pay our corporate directors a salary of £105,000, which most people in the city of Hull, and indeed across east Yorkshire and northern Lincolnshire, can only dream of. Then, in time, we had to appoint a new chief executive. Needless to say, they were not appointed at the same salary as the previous chief executive—there was a massive salary increase that had a knock-on effect on other local authorities in our area, which judged themselves against how much the neighbouring authority was paying. If we cannot get people to work in local government on salaries lower than that of the Prime Minister, we are doing something badly wrong.

I also well remember the settlements that we used to get from the Labour Government—it was a case of giving with one hand and taking away with the other. Nowhere was that more clear than in the best value process, which required us to measure 100 to 200 different things and report back to central Government. One of our best value performance indicators was to measure how many of our park benches had arms. I am sorry, but when I go drinking in the Dog and Duck, or in my real pub, the Percy Arms—[Interruption.] It is conveniently named. People do not come up to me and say, “Andrew, what we want you to do as a local authority is to measure how many park benches have arms.” They want their council to be providing services—over the past couple of weeks, gritting, snow ploughing, and so on. They do not want it to be spending hundreds of thousands of pounds every year reporting back on such silly measures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

No, I will not, because the hon. Gentleman has had a lot to say today.

As the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness said, large rural authorities, as well as having considerable pockets of deprivation, face other challenges that are not taken into account. One of my two authorities is the largest unitary authority in the country. It is time that we looked at the structure of the grants system and made it take account of issues of rurality. For example, we know that rural poverty is hard to identify.

If the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) speaks, I am sure that he will talk more about our Labour local authority, which seems to take a different line on the spending cuts. I will allow others to conclude whether that is for political reasons, given that there are elections next year. However, my Conservative-run authority of East Riding has accepted that it will be tough. It has made decisions to prepare for that over the past two years, because it has known that it is coming. It knew what the Labour party was saying about 25% cuts—some of the biggest cuts in history—coming its way, so it started to make decisions accordingly. Even after the comprehensive spending review, one of my local councils said clearly:

“The programme involved a carefully planned reduction in expenditure in response to anticipated funding cuts.”

The council had been planning for the cuts already. Any half-decent leader of a local authority should have had that in mind, not least because they should have seen the previous Government’s plans. It is nonsense suddenly to pretend at this late juncture that it is all wicked and terrible, that nobody could have seen this coming, and that it would not have happened in the strange world that the Labour party currently seems to inhabit.

I have highlighted some of the waste and inefficiency that I saw as a local councillor. There are some very good people working in local authorities and providing services. The challenge for local authorities is to navel gaze, to look closely at what they are doing at the moment and to decide whether they can do that better. I give way one last time.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the decision to publish expenditure over £500 will allow a greater number of eyes to look over the information and identify much needed efficiency savings?

[Andrew Percy]

Of course I agree. That can be done relatively simply through programmes such as Oracle, which my former council spent millions of pounds investing in—perhaps investing should be in inverted commas.

School Sports Funding

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I am pleased to speak in this debate on an issue in which I am very interested. I had many positive experiences in school sports. Indeed, I lost many competitive games, which stood me in good stead in my political life. I was also the lead member for leisure on Swindon borough council and councillor for a new development ward. I support 100% the positive role that sport can play in encouraging a healthy and active lifestyle, and improving behaviour, team work and enjoyment. I want to focus on some constructive points, especially because I am so biased in favour of sport.

Before the debate, I took the opportunity to visit many of my local schools, and the school sport partnership organised some events to showcase exactly what it was doing, working with Swindon borough council’s leisure department. That gave me an opportunity to discuss the matter directly. From my visits in my constituency, I can draw not only many positives, but—crucially—lessons to ensure that we can secure for young people the maximum sporting opportunities.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

There have been positive experiences in this process, but it has been patchy. One deputy head teacher whom I spoke to this morning said that the local school sport partnership had taught those involved what they had forgotten, but that it would not be a complete disaster if it disappeared, because they would be able to continue through other mechanisms. There is good and bad, and we should move forward and give head teachers the powers they need.

[Justin Tomlinson]

People involved in the school sport partnership I saw were understandably extremely positive, as were Swindon borough council and some of the head teachers I met—although not all of them—so my hon. Friend raises a fair point, which strengthens the case for giving head teachers more choice. I want to be positive and constructive, but I am biased, because I have seen first hand the benefits that sport can bring.

I return to what I have seen in my constituency. Clearly we have in place a greater range of activities than would typically be offered. Many Members have mentioned that point already—in particular, I noted the speech by the hon. Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman). One sport I saw was street dancing, which is extremely popular, especially among females—probably off the back of the inspirational “Pineapple Dance Studios” television programme. The crucial message is that it goes beyond the core traditional sports. I am a great believer in competitive sports—I was sporty myself—but trends change, and we need to capture the imagination of children to get them active.

We have to sustain engagement post-event. We have to ensure that, after children enjoy a taster session of external sports clubs, they continue to engage long term. In Swindon, we are good at that, because we have a successful sports forum of 60 sports groups working with the council to promote its activities.

Consumer Credit Regulation

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I will be exceptionally brief. My huge notes have been cut back dramatically, and I will focus on one point. First, I quickly pay tribute to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) for both this crucial debate and the ten-minute rule Bill, the thrust of the arguments of which I support. So, there is cross-party support.

I want to concentrate on the important element of financial education. It is essential to provide financial education to equip people to make informed decisions. Working with the national financial education charity, the Personal Finance Education Group, and Martin Lewis of www.moneysavingexpert.com, I am launching an all-party group on financial education, with a focus on securing compulsory financial education in schools. It will launch on 31 January. This is a very brief plea to all Members who are still in this important debate to come and join the group, so that we can help future generations to make informed decisions.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

It is really important to get financial education into our schools because one of the big problems with things such as credit unions is that people do not understand what they are. Banks come into schools, but we do not know about the whole range of the market.

[Justin Tomlinson]

My hon. Friend makes a really important point. According to a survey carried out by the Nationwide Building Society, 91% of people who got into financial difficulty said that if they had had better financial education, they might not have made the decisions they did. The number of people who think that a higher APR is better than a lower one is worrying, and reinforces the point that financial education is absolutely essential.

Public Libraries

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Andrew Percy

Tuesday 7th September 2010 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention which highlighted how local libraries can adapt to the needs of individual communities. That is a good example showing how the future of that community library has been secured.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I also congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate—I know that he is a passionate advocate of libraries. My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) spoke in support of what has been happening in his area, but in my area, our experience of the local council has been a little different. We currently have a Labour council that is proposing the possible closure of a library in Haxey on the Isle of Axholme. It has not been at all innovative in its approach but has simply offered residents the options of the closure of the library and replacement with a mobile service, or staffing by volunteers. Although it is important to transform libraries, the challenge is for local councils to be innovative and not simply present the public with bland options. It is hit or miss around the country.

[Justin Tomlinson]

That is why I requested this debate, which I hope will highlight that although councils have difficult decisions to make, there are options that can transform the service that is offered, as my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) highlighted.

I am pleased that the Minister has announced that the future libraries programme, led by the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council and the Local Government Association group, will work with and support councils to deliver key services for communities while driving costs down. I welcome a rethink of the way that library services are delivered, and I endorse the introduction of shared services, merging functions, staffing across authorities and greater connection with other local services, where appropriate for the community. Councils need to deliver fresh initiatives to achieve cost savings and new partnerships, and they must make the most of digital advancements because further opportunities will arise through the medium of digital books.

We must ensure that libraries deliver the services that communities want and need, and that they can adapt and be shaped by the local people who use them. That is why library services should be run at a local level. Local authorities are important for the delivery of library services, but the responsibility of the day-to-day running of libraries must lie with library managers.

The person running the library and their relationship with the community is what matters. Flexibility and efficiencies can be enabled by cutting out bureaucracy and upper management. If libraries are run from the bottom up, front-line staff are given the freedom to provide a service that caters for the public who want to use them. Managers are often too heavily controlled from above, and each individual library should be released so that it can have a relationship with the community. The most important person should be the manager who must know their library, their customers and the needs of their community. By cutting corporate structure and giving management back to individual libraries, services can be tailored to—and led by—the community.

Where possible, back offices should be reduced, and activities that are not part of the libraries should be removed. Public library statistics state that only 7.5% of library expenditure for 2008-09 was spent on book stock, which is staggering. There should be a reduction in bureaucracy through the use of universal categorising and cataloguing, and labelling should be standardised. Costs saved by cutting through red tape can be spent on improving stock, opening hours and the environment of the libraries—areas that have been shown to be important to the public but which have all too often been neglected. National library campaigner, Tim Coates, is passionate about that issue, and rightly so as it is exactly how Hillingdon local authority helped to transform its library service.

If services are released from a corporate structure that undermines managers, decisions can be made about vital areas such as stock. Such decisions can be made directly in response to requests and local demand without additional bureaucracy or delay. When we opened our new central library, we allowed local residents to pick and choose—within legal boundaries—any item or book that they wanted to have in the library. That is important, as people will not use libraries if they do not have the books that they want or the stock is not up to date with new releases or trends. Big-name bookstores such as Waterstones often provide a wide variety and an up-to-date collection, and a pleasant coffee culture environment in which to enjoy a book. Libraries must be able to compete and go further by also providing additional services that are unique and appropriate to the local area. Again, I refer to the excellent example given by my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle.

Local communities need to be able to access services or be offered a service that they want. The library manager can be responsible for successfully offering and delivering services appropriate for the area—as they know it best—working in conjunction with volunteers. For example, delivery services to the elderly in local care homes or reading time for children after nurseries or schools finish, with the use of volunteer groups, can help to take the library directly to the community and drive up usage. I recently experienced that when I took part in the launch of the Swindon summer reading challenge for children, acting as an elephant in the support cast for author Neil Griffiths’ excellent live story time. Thankfully, my red-faced performance, which has not featured on YouTube, did not put off the children, with an amazing 2,598 children signing up—a just reward for the staff and volunteers who went that extra mile to make the library exciting for the children.

Local solutions can be developed to increase opening times. In Swindon, we saw the Old Town community library facing closure. I know that the Minister is well aware of it. There were concerns about limited opening times, fears of falling usage following the opening of the new Central library and concerns about an unsuitable and cramped building. That was typical of so many closures across the country. However, local campaigns were organised, led by local activist and passionate library supporter Shirley Burnham, and thankfully a practical solution was found by moving the library into the arts centre just around the corner. Incidentally, that move is happening as we speak. The move started today, and knowing Councillor Fionuala Foley and head of libraries Allyson Jordan, there will not be any delay in the library opening later this week.