Hunting Trophies (Import Prohibition) Bill

Debate between Lord Spellar and John McDonnell

2nd reading
Friday 22nd March 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Spellar]

I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend has been campaigning on this in Bristol and here in Parliament for many years, from the days when we worked in the Whips Office. She makes a very strong point.

The argument that says, “We are killing these animals in order to save them” is a bit like saying, “We created a desert and called it peace.” I really do not buy into that and, importantly, neither do the British public.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

There has in the past been the argument that trophy hunting performs the role of culling for protected species. We have always been able to negate that argument. There are times when there is a strategy for culling certain species, but that is done on the basis of scientific fact rather than inhumane delight at the killing of animals.

[John Spellar]

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. Vastly excessive numbers, such as in certain parts of this country where there are problems with deer, have an impact on woodland and the very proper campaigns by the Government to reforest the country. In many cases professional hunters do the cull, rather than having people firing crossbows at animals, which can then linger for several days. Cecil the lion was mentioned. That case caught the attention and imagination of the British public, and it focused them on this issue and they made it clear that they do not want this practice to continue.

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, but there is another factor to consider. The elephants taken out are the big leaders of the tribe. That has a significant effect on the gene pool. There is already some evidence that elephants with smaller tusks are surviving and therefore, contrary to natural selection, changes are taking place to their appearance. Also, some hunters do not seem to accept that, although some are solitary, many animals live in social structures. We saw that with the death of Cecil the lion and we see with elephants that the social structure and cohesion of elephant herds are completely disrupted. That applies to other creatures as well. Hunting is to the detriment of gene selection and the development and maintenance of groups of species.

Draft Strikes (Minimum Service Levels: Passenger Railway Services) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Spellar and John McDonnell

Monday 27th November 2023 General Committees

[John Spellar]

rose—

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

rose—

Ahmadiyya Community

Debate between Lord Spellar and John McDonnell

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to address Westminster Hall for the first time from the Front Bench as a deputy member of the Labour party’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office team. It is also a pleasure to face the Minister, who strikes the right balance between being properly partisan—I heard him shouting and bawling from the Back Benches when he was in opposition—and always being seen as competent and, even more significantly, fair-minded. Perhaps I can compromise him further with his Whips Office by saying that there is a compromising picture of him and me opening Paula Radcliffe way in his constituency. I can assure him, however, that normal service will resume in later exchanges on the Floor of the House.

It is also a pleasure to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), who once again showed her qualities as a tenacious campaigner. She has turned a marginal seat, which was previously not held by the Labour party, into a safe seat, and that is based on the enormous service that she has given her constituents. She has demonstrated again today her engagement with them and the battles that she has fought on their behalf.

My hon. Friend has not only raised an important issue, but paid proper tribute to members of the Ahmadi faith, their contribution to community life in her constituency and their success in founding businesses and being part of economic life in her constituency and the country. My hon. Friend is right to be proud of that success, but as I often tell groups and individuals in my constituency, we can also be proud of the fact that we live in a country where such success is possible. There are a whole number of reasons for that, and we must fight to defend our values and customs so that such things remain possible and groups can succeed.

People of different faiths, beliefs and races can live peacefully side by side in this country. I was very much taken by the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who spoke of a group that had led a campaign against a mosque. Its members recognised that they had been wrong, but more importantly, they felt that it was right to convey that to the Ahmadi community. I am not sure how many other countries that would happen in. It is particularly telling that even those who have sometimes had prejudices and strong views can recognise when they have made a mistake. That is not true of everyone by any means, and there will always be a minority in society who are bigoted and driven by hatred, but the great majority of people in all communities want to live peacefully. We must work to ensure that we maintain such values and maintain that sort of country. At the same time, it strongly behoves us as individuals, political parties and state authorities to react vigorously against those, from whichever community, who would disrupt society and seek to divide it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) rightly said that there are two aspects to the debate. One clearly involves the situation and relations in this country, and I will return to that in a minute. The other is the situation in Pakistan. There is also the issue of how we handle the relationship between the two.

Obviously, it was disturbing to hear the contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden and other colleagues, who told us how certain groups are trying to disrupt peaceful relations, stir up hatred, damage people’s businesses and even move towards physical violence. From the examples that we have been given, that seems to be a problem mainly in the Metropolitan police area, and I certainly hope that the Metropolitan police will take it up fairly urgently. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said, it is important to nip these things in the bud—to deal with things at an early stage, to establish norms and isolate those who are trying to cause the difficulty.

I remind the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) that, leaving aside newer legislation, the concept of actions liable to cause a breach of the peace is long established in legal principle. In that respect, the proprietors of a shopping centre, who may have rights within it, can work in collaboration with the Metropolitan police and/or the local council’s antisocial behaviour unit. There is an excellent case for joint action to send the message, “This is not the sort of behaviour that we will tolerate in the public space in our borough or in London.” We should have a strong attitude of zero tolerance towards those who would seek to stir up sectarian strife.

The second aspect that has been raised is the situation in Pakistan. I associate my party’s Front-Bench team with the comments that the Minister has made in answer to questions over the past few months, and specifically in response to the horrific attacks on 28 May and 3 September. They were very much echoed in comments made by the previous Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (David Miliband), when he was shadow Foreign Secretary. In a quote that has been previously raised, he rightly said:

“Pakistan’s security is paramount to stability in the region. It is when the international community has taken its eye off the ball in Pakistan that instability has increased.

The European Union needs to increase its support for Pakistan. It currently spends just half a euro per person compared to five to ten times as much in other parts of the world that are not only more developed, but less crucial to global security.

The Pakistani Government’s efforts to stabilise its western provinces has seen its military stretched.

That Friday’s attacks on the Ahmadi mosques originated in North Waziristan, and were carried out by suspected Pakistani Taliban militants, are areas of particular ongoing concern.

Internally, Pakistan has a duty to protect minority groups and needs the support of its allies to do so. This is the worst attack on the Ahmadis in Pakistan’s history, and it is deeply saddening that 93 innocent people have lost their lives.”

That clearly reflected the previous Government’s ongoing policy in March 2009, when the previous Member for Harlow, who was a Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister, clearly laid out the then Government’s position, which the subsequent coalition Government have followed very well. He said that his ministerial colleague had raised

“concerns about the difficulties faced by religious minorities in Pakistan, including the Christian and Ahmadi communities and the mis-use of blasphemy legislation…With EU partners we have also made a series of demarches”—

he was referring to contacts and notes—

“to the government of Pakistan on protecting religious minorities.”

He said that the UK had pressed

“the government of Pakistan to promote tolerance, and take measures to protect freedom of religion or belief”

and

“called for the reform of discriminatory legislation”,

which has been mentioned in the debate. He said that the UK had

“urged the Minister for Minority Affairs to raise awareness about abuses against minorities and to increase their political representation at all levels.”

He added that in July 2008—this was not just a response to immediate events, but part of an understanding of the ongoing problems—the UK and its EU partners had called

“on the government of Pakistan to specifically protect religious freedoms and human rights of the Ahmadis.”—[Official Report, 24 March 2009; Vol. 490, c. 192W.]

I want to press the Minister a little with regard to the specific event, and the occasion in May when he described the attack on the mosques in Lahore as

“a tragic example of the discrimination faced by the Ahmadiyya community”

and added:

“Our high commissioner in Islamabad has raised the attacks and the discrimination suffered by the Ahmadiyya community in Pakistan with the Chief Minister of Punjab along with his EU colleagues, and the issue has also been raised by our high commission with the Pakistani Ministries of Interior and Minorities.”—[Official Report, 14 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 301W.]

It is not just a matter of getting agreement at national level in Pakistan; it is also a matter of recognising the significant role of provincial and local governments in protecting minorities in Pakistan. Therefore, national agreement and understanding is important, but things must go deeper, through the structures of the Pakistan Government.

[John McDonnell]

The most disappointing aspect of the attack this year was the fact that according to the Human Rights Watch report, the Ahmadi community and others in Pakistan had approached the Chief Minister of Punjab in advance to seek enhanced security for Ahmadi mosques. That was not provided and the mosques were vulnerable as a result, with the attack resulting in so many deaths. I concur with my right hon. Friend in trying to ensure that the message should be given not just to the Pakistani Government, but should be implemented at provincial level.

[Mr Spellar]

My hon. Friend ably reinforces my point. I am sure that the Minister will take that on board. I hope that the steps that have been suggested will be taken, so that the message will get across at different levels in Pakistan.

The debate rightly touches on relations with Pakistan, a country with which we have long and deep links, which is a major player in an important region and a partner in responding to terrorism. Furthermore, as has been obvious during the debate, many of our citizens take a deep and informed interest in its affairs. That is shown by the huge response in the UK—not just from the community that originates in Pakistan—to the floods in Pakistan. As far as I am aware, the UK has been the second biggest donor, both in the response of individuals and in the Government response to the distress caused by the floods. That has been so throughout the country.

I was at an event a few weeks ago in my constituency and there were some major figures there from the Pakistani community—as well as from the other communities: Hindu, Sikh, Christian and probably a considerable number of non-believers in any faith. They made major donations to assist those whose lives have been so disrupted. It is clear that the bonds between our countries are strong, but I stress that is not to do with recreating a position based on a colonial past. Even so, we should not be averse to raising human rights issues. Nor should we make the perhaps slightly lazy assumption that in a vibrant, dynamic country such as Pakistan there is monolithic uniformity of opinion. It is undoubtedly far more nuanced and sophisticated.

It is interesting to note that an independent survey showed that about 90% of Pakistanis believe that religious extremism is the greatest single threat to the country. It seems a shame that, as someone commented, the extremist 3% seem to be holding the other 97% to ransom. It is important, therefore, that Pakistan should not be isolated from the mainstream of international community, and very important that ordinary Pakistanis should remain in contact with the outside world, and should understand that we do not believe they all follow the views of a rabid, vociferous minority.

My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden rightly stressed the efforts of the Taliban to destabilise Pakistan by inciting hatred and violence towards minorities, and the Ahmadi minority in particular. However, we should recognise that the Taliban are not very concerned, either, about their fellow Sunni Muslims. In fact, they probably hold them in greater disregard than they do other groups. They are an extremist group and are prepared to use extreme violence to impose a backward view. They are a threat to the stability of the country as well as to minorities, with the present case being the worst example of that at the moment. We should remember in this and other contexts that intolerance of others’ beliefs and sectarian violence rarely stay within the bounds of a country; they spread across frontiers. That is what is happening and that is why we need to respond in Britain.

The Minister has a number of questions to respond to from hon. Members who have taken part in the debate, but I ask him also to outline what steps are being taken by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to convey our strong concern to the authorities in Pakistan at national, provincial and local level. I assure him of our support in getting that message across.