Commonwealth Trade

Debate between Lord Spellar and Andrew Rosindell

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Rosindell]

I wholeheartedly endorse the hon. Gentleman’s view. I also believe that we must expand the Commonwealth and look to countries with historical links to the Commonwealth that may not have considered joining or that we may not have approached. A more vigorous policy to attract more countries to join the Commonwealth would be very welcome. I would like to see the whole of Ireland in the Commonwealth and I very much look forward to that day.

In addition to the Commonwealth nations, we of course have 21 British overseas territories—parts of the world that my hon. Friend the Minister is becoming more familiar with by the day—which stretch from Gibraltar to the Falkland Islands, Bermuda to the Pitcairn Islands and Montserrat to St Helena, along with five Crown dependencies: the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. Australia also has external territories, such as Norfolk Island, and New Zealand has its realm states, such as the Cook Islands. All are part of our extended Commonwealth family. The English-speaking world is, I believe, the most powerful collection of nations on earth today. It is time to harness that power to extend opportunities for trade and to create the wealth that our people need.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s long-standing and very considerable interest in the British overseas territories. He mentioned the territories that are administered by Australia and by New Zealand, but what is the aggregate population of those territories if we are talking about trade and Britain’s trade balances?

[Andrew Rosindell]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention and I commend him for his commitment to the Commonwealth and his deep understanding of countries around the world with which we have a lot in common, such as Australia. However, I have to say to him that this is not only about population size; it is also about geography. It is about the opportunities that some of the smaller territories around the world present. Some of them can contribute in all kinds of ways. Yes, some of them have small populations, but surely they too should be welcomed as part of the family of nations and territories. We do not exclude a small territory because it has a small population; otherwise, what would we do with places such as Pitcairn, Sark and other places that have very small populations but are loyal to Britain and want to feel part of the extended Commonwealth family?

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[Andrew Rosindell]

This is of course not purely a debate about overseas territories. It is about Commonwealth trade. Only last week, I met chief ministers and premiers from many of the overseas territories, who were here for the joint ministerial council, and the one message that I received from all of them was that although they appreciate all the different, new initiatives our Government are introducing and the much warmer relationship, they still wonder: are they British or are they foreign? That is the question they put to me. Why are British territories under the Foreign Office? They are British, not foreign. They are not even Commonwealth; they are not allowed to join the Commonwealth. They do not even have territory status in the Commonwealth. They feel that they are treated almost as an anomaly.

It is high time that we addressed all the issues and treated overseas territories as an equal part of the British family, while upholding their right to self-determination and home rule. We do not want to govern them from London, but we want them to feel securely part of the British family. Giving them elected representation and secure places in our Parliament, particularly for territories that are under threat from aggressive neighbours, such as the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar, would signify that we intend to retain them permanently as British sovereign territory and that negotiations over their future will not take place. I appreciate the sentiments that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) expressed this morning.

The nations of the Commonwealth are dotted along the whole spectrum of the development index. Within it are some of the largest producers of raw materials, as well as a broad range of manufacturing and service industries. Combined with that rich diversity, we are all wonderfully tied together by a shared history, heritage and language. Many Commonwealth countries continue to share Her Majesty the Queen as their sovereign and Head of State, and of course Her Majesty remains head of the Commonwealth itself. The Commonwealth was not an accident; it was built on trade flows, the location of commodities, the availability of work forces and a mutual desire to develop and succeed.

Where have things gone wrong? Why has the United Kingdom sat back? Why has there been such a systematic failure to develop the debate over Commonwealth trade? I suggest that some of the fault may lie in our membership of a continental construction that has effectively tied Britain to a protectionist trade block. Although I welcome everything that the Foreign Secretary has said, perhaps blame lies with the low importance that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has given in recent years to our relationship with the Commonwealth.

Could the Minister tell the House how many people in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office actually work on Commonwealth issues? I am informed that it may be as few as six, and only one may be full-time. Is that true and, if so, why do Her Majesty’s Government not make the Commonwealth a greater priority? In addition, can the Minister confirm which UK representative, if any, joined the Commonwealth Finance Ministers meeting delegation in Tokyo in October of this year? I have no doubt that he agrees that the UK should take a leading role at such meetings.

[Mr Spellar]

As I understand the arcane discussions going on inside the Conservative party at the moment, one school of thought says that we ought to return to a relationship with Europe as a trading block, rather than continue in the European Union, and that negotiations should take place and there should be a referendum. But that would still mean that we were in a major trading block that would be our major trading partner. The hon. Gentleman seems to be suggesting that we ought to look for an alternative trading block, rather than a complementary or supplementary one. Will he clarify?

[Andrew Rosindell]

The shadow Minister misunderstands the point I am making. I value enormously our relationship with Europe. Co-operating and trading with Europe is very important, and I do not downplay it at all. I am sceptical over whether the EU, as constructed, is the right model for us to be part of. There are all sorts of ways to trade and co-operate with our neighbours on the continent, without necessarily being tied into a political union, which is, I am afraid, heading in the direction of an integrated united states of Europe. I do not think that many constituents of Members in the Hall today would support the idea of going further and deeper into that construction. If the Labour party intends to fight the next election wanting to sign up to an even closer relationship with Europe, I look forward to the election result.

What of the general UK presence in terms of trade with the Commonwealth? For example, how many UK trade delegations have been to Commonwealth nations since 2010? Maybe the Minister can answer that later. Sadly, it seems that Britain has delegated many such matters to Brussels. We appear to have lost our ability to conduct direct trade deals with countries outside the EU. The UK seems unable to carry out free trade agreements with a third party, due to our association with the EU customs union. Consequently, the UK can independently forge bilateral investment agreements only. In the light of that, could the Minister inform the House when the last bilateral investment agreement was signed by the UK and another Commonwealth country? Although we all recognise the importance of our trade relationship with our European neighbours as individual states, the idea that we must for ever have a Eurocentric focus is simply outdated and wrong. Commonwealth and European trade should not be seen as mutually exclusive; they should complement each other.

We run a trade deficit with the EU of £41 billion, but a trade surplus of more than £10.7 billion with the Commonwealth, so it makes sense to balance one with the other. More Commonwealth trade does not mean less trade with European nations. Germany, for example, had an extremely healthy surplus of £16.8 billion in 2011. Does anyone seriously believe that our German friends would stop that great deal with the British people if we forged a new agenda on Commonwealth trade? It would to be to no one’s advantage.

Our neighbours across the English Channel would be the beneficiaries of any new arrangement for Commonwealth trade. They, too, could plug into opportunities that Britain is in a unique position to create. We are in a unique position to concentrate on developing the potential for trade that exists beyond the continent of Europe, and we should not be held back from doing so.

In October this year, a paper authored by Tim Hewish and James Styles, “Common-Trade, Common-Growth, Common-Wealth”, set out the possibilities for Commonwealth trade. It examined in detail how we can further mould the Commonwealth into a relevant and practical 21st-century organisation, based around a mutually beneficial trade relationship, as well as how we can lift developing Commonwealth nations out of poverty. I highly recommend the book to the Minister. I hope that he will read it, and take it back to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to develop ideas based on its excellent contents. The case is supremely compelling.

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[Andrew Rosindell]

I agree with my hon. Friend. I hope that his work in the Foreign Office laid the foundations for closer co-operation with our friends in Africa, which is an up and coming continent. Once again, Britain is uniquely placed to develop trade and co-operation with those countries, and the Commonwealth Business Council also has a role to play. But what were we thinking of, in the past few decades, when we completely forgot about countries all around the world, and focused purely on a model of Europe that, frankly, was alien to what most of us in this country believe? All those opportunities lie before us, and we now need the political courage to seize them and make the best of them, not only for our own people, but for those of all the Commonwealth nations. I believe that we have the chance to do so at this point in our history.

We all know that, in comparison with the combined Commonwealth annual growth rate of 3.7%, the European Union’s growth is shrinking. Under the so-called Commonwealth effect, the overhead costs of trading with the Commonwealth are reduced by about 15% in comparison with trade outside the Commonwealth. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge the Commonwealth factor in doing business.

We are the world’s sixth largest trading nation. Yet while we remain wedded to an outmoded customs union, emerging nations are at liberty to trade freely and openly in a healthy competitive environment. Will the Minister tell us what the Government are doing, despite that hindrance, to help UK small and medium-sized enterprises trade with other Commonwealth nations, and what platforms are open to UK SMEs to get information about Commonwealth trade?

I am left in absolutely no doubt that we are at a crossroads; not taking a practical outlook now on how the UK moves its trade relations forward will be viewed by future generations as utterly foolish. As a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, in my work with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and as chairman of all-party groups relating to Commonwealth countries and the overseas territories, I am fortunate to have met and had direct dealings with many high commissioners, prime ministers, premiers, chief ministers, diplomats, Government representatives and those engaged with trade and commerce. Let me tell the House that there is a strong and clear message that resonates: the Commonwealth nations are eager for our business, and they want to explore and develop a trading relationship. But what do we do? We talk. We talk about the valuable asset of the Commonwealth, how relevant it remains to Britain and the potential for business and trade, but we seem to do very little.

Therefore, I ask the Minister to consider making that a central theme for Her Majesty’s Government to pursue in the second half of this Parliament. Will a Business Minister join him in Colombo for next year’s Commonwealth business forum to promote what I hope will be a new British vision for trade across the Commonwealth? I, for one, recognise how important it is for the UK to take a lead in Commonwealth initiatives. What could be more important in these times than to build steadfast foundations for trade for the decades to come? To all those who think that adopting a different relationship with the EU would put us on the periphery of Europe, I say no—it would place us on the doorstep of the world. That point runs much deeper, because increased Commonwealth trade and co-operation would bring a whole host of other benefits. A Commonwealth investment bank might cultivate projects in emerging markets, and a Commonwealth business visa could promote a trans-regional investor environment.

On that note, a few simple changes at our border would also provide a friendlier reception for Commonwealth citizens entering the United Kingdom. As colleagues will be aware, I am promoting the United Kingdom Borders Bill, which would provide for recognition at our border of people from Commonwealth realms where Her Majesty the Queen remains the Head of State. It would give people from those 15 nations the right to enter UK passport control in the same channel as the British, which would generate a tremendous amount of good will.

The shadow Minister, who has links with Australia, will know how passionately such people feel let down when, on arriving at Heathrow, they are told to queue with those from the rest of the world. They fought shoulder to shoulder with us in every war, they share the Queen as their Head of State, they speak our language and their culture and heritage is ours, yet we treat them as aliens. Why do we not allow people from those realms and territories the right to enter through the same channel as the British, while those from countries with whom we have not always had that much in common can enter through that channel? It is a shameful indictment of the failure of all Governments to recognise our very special relationship with those countries. I hope the Government will address that by supporting my Bill, which is now before the House. The Bill would boost tourism and trade by making it easier to move between Her Majesty’s realms and territories.

There is a social justice element to the argument. The UK currently hands out £8.57 billion a year in international aid, which is a lot of money, almost all of which is distributed to Commonwealth countries. However, as we have discovered, handouts are futile for long-term sustainability: endless handouts are not the solution. If we really care—in other words, if we really mean it—we should offer such nations a way to trade their way up and out of poverty.

The cruel reality is that that cannot realistically be achieved by the UK at the moment, for we cannot give Commonwealth states the chance to trade with us on equal terms. While other countries such as Russia and China are able to invest in mutually beneficial relationships with the Commonwealth nations in the developing world, Britain is left simply throwing money at well-meaning projects, because we are not able to have trading relations directly with those nations without going through the European Union.

[Mr Spellar]

Will the hon. Gentleman give an example of where China has been able to develop those relationships differently with, say, Australia or Canada?

[Andrew Rosindell]

Goodness me. The shadow Minister surprises me. Wherever I go in the world, I see the Chinese investing money, establishing institutions, developing opportunities for trade and ensuring that their best interests are looked after. Sadly, we cannot do that because we are shackled to an institution that prevents us from doing so individually as Britain with our Commonwealth partners. Even the Labour party must be able to see that this is no way to create wealth either for Britain or for developing nations.

[Mr Spellar]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. Will he give an example of the sort of projects that he is thinking about that the Chinese are able to develop and that our membership of the EU prevents us from developing?

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[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) on securing the debate. I had hoped that it would focus on increasing trade around the world and especially on ensuring a fair share for manufacturing; I say that having, in a previous incarnation, been a national officer for the electricians’ union and represented two west midlands constituencies during my parliamentary career. I have a huge interest in manufacturing, and I would certainly agree that its interests and importance have not had sufficient attention, particularly among the ranks of the British civil service. I will touch on that later.

It is unfortunate that almost no debate in the House can now be conducted without focusing to an unhealthy extent on Europe, often in areas where Europe is not a relevant consideration. The hon. Gentleman talked about high-tax, welfare-bloated states; some would characterise Sweden as one of those—it is an archetypal Scandinavian welfare state—but it has a very effective exporting machine. Similarly, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) will know, Germany laid the foundation for many social welfare provisions in the Bismarck era, as one of the early representations of a welfare state, and it is hugely successful at exporting.

Let me take another, very real example. Following the manufacturing downturn that resulted from the global financial crisis, civil service and Treasury officials here were hugely resistant—there was a considerable battle within the Government about this—to paying companies to keep their manufacturing workers on the books. We should compare and contrast that with what happened in Germany, which kept workers on and then had a work force who were ready to go when the upturn came.

Take a company such as JCB, whose owners are well known for their donations to, and involvement with, the Conservative party—although I will not complain about that on this occasion. We should compare and contrast its operation in Germany, which is a smaller part of the overall business, with its operation in Uttoxeter, in the midlands. When the upturn came in Germany, its operation there was able to take on work straightaway, but its operation in Uttoxeter had to go and find the workers that it had had to lay off to maintain financial viability. That is very much about using welfare provisions to maintain industrial capability, so it is not as though there is an inconsistency in having a proper welfare state and industrial efficiency.

That is the nub of my argument with the hon. Member for Romford. He put forward many interesting ideas, and I fully agree with him about the importance of stressing the need to develop, maintain and expand our relations with our Commonwealth partners. However, he focused on our relationship with the EU, when the fault, in Shakespeare’s words,

“is not in our stars, But in ourselves”.

The problems are in the UK, and constantly blaming people somewhere in Brussels means that we do not examine what we need to do in this country to improve and, in many areas, to build trading relationships, particularly—I was pleased the hon. Gentleman touched on this—through education.

We also need to look at how we have been reacting to Government purchasing, for example. It is hard to go to a foreign country and say “Buy British trains” when the Department for Transport deliberately turns its back, because of some complications in the bidding, on buying from Bombardier in Derby and buys from Siemens instead. It appears that yet again, as happens so often, it is allowing Siemens some variation to the contract. Why do I cite Bombardier in particular? Precisely because it is an extremely successful Canadian company, investing in UK train manufacture. It is also investing—I am sorry that our colleagues from Northern Ireland are no longer present—in what used to be Shorts in Northern Ireland; that is an extremely successful project, which is now securing an increasing share of the world market.

In that context, the hon. Member for Romford slightly underestimated the degree of engagement between us and many of our significant Commonwealth partners. Australia and the UK are either No. 1 or No. 2 as major investors in each other and, interestingly enough, the position of Australia has been rising in the past two or three years. There is significant investment between our countries.

There was enormous publicity during the year about the success of Tata, a major Indian company that has made a huge success of its ownership of Jaguar Land Rover. Now it is not only expanding production but moving down the supply chain. An investment in a substantial engine plant for Jaguar Land Rover in the Wolverhampton and south Staffordshire area is very welcome.

[Andrew Rosindell]

I accept a lot of what the right hon. Gentleman says. Will he therefore agree that Britain is in a unique position to be a bridge between trade with the European continent and trade with the English-speaking world, and that we could have a unique and positive role to play if we were to harness the Commonwealth and the English-speaking world while retaining a trading relationship with our neighbours on the continent? Can we combine the two to the mutual benefit of all?

[Mr Spellar]

I am pleased that my eloquence has persuaded the hon. Gentleman that those objectives are not inconsistent but compatible and that, for a variety of reasons, many of which he enunciated effectively, we can act as a springboard into the European market. That is an attraction not just for Commonwealth countries, but, as the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) will know extremely well, for Japanese companies coming to the UK.

Why are so many Japanese car companies based in the UK and expanding their investment and production? It is because we have offered a welcome mat to them, and they are now also expanding component manufacture here as well. It is enormously important for us to be able to tell those companies, “You have come to a country where you will be welcome, and where you have the advantage of the English language, the time zone and a developed commercial community that can service a variety of needs.” That is enormously important. I only wish we could also say, “And you will have easy access through airports,” but that is a matter that—regrettably and, I think, to the detriment of our business—seems to have been slipped slightly to the right.

The situation has come about precisely because we are an engaged member of the European trading bloc. There is a lot of talk—one can read about it in the excellent note produced by the Library—about the fact that so much of our trade now is intra-European, but that is not surprising. In all economies, especially as borders break down, geography is destiny. The United States has a huge cross-border trade with Canada. Up on the Detroit-Windsor border, trucks run back and forth every day between the major car and component plants in the United States and Canada.

It is the view of Australian politicians of all parties that it was inevitable, especially as China opened up and Japan developed economically, that trading relationships would grow between Australia, and Japan and China. That was inherent in their geographical position. The same goes for us. We do not count as a trade flow the fact that Toyota builds engines in Deeside in Wales and builds its cars in Burnaston. If, however, we considered that process happening between plants in Germany or France, it would count as trade flows, but that is the nature of modern industry and the interdependency of plants. We should welcome it, but it should not detract from our efforts also to build markets around the world.

[Andrew Rosindell]

The right hon. Gentleman surely realises that the concept of free trading around the world in some of the countries that he mentions is very different from the model of trading that we are presented with via the European Union. The harmonisation, standardisation, centralised control and single currency that are being introduced in the European Union are not being brought in anywhere else in the world. The model of trade that the right hon. Gentleman articulates so well is one I would accept, but that is not the model of trade prescribed by Brussels. He is talking about two different visions of what trade is all about.

[Mr Spellar]

There are always standards. Whether the European Union is involved or not, there are international standards. When the hon. Gentleman uses a DIN plug on some audio equipment, that is the Deutsche whatever-it-is; when he has a SCART lead that is the Syndicat—it is a French standard. Countries adopt international standards. It is the same in the oil industry. People work to standards normally set by the United States. Why is so much of that business still undertaken in feet and inches? Precisely because of where the main activity takes place. None of that, to get back to the point I made earlier, prevents Germany from being a major industrial powerhouse, which sells goods all round the world—and it does not prevent Sweden or French industry from doing that, either.

I agree with the hon. Member for Romford that we need to look at what we are doing throughout the world because there are several countries that are hugely important markets for us. Australia and Canada are both in the G20. By the way, we should also consider the huge growth happening in another G20 country, Indonesia, although it is not a Commonwealth country.

The EU has also recently signed a free trade agreement with Korea, which opens huge new markets to us. I hope that there will also be developments in the Japan trade agreement. The hon. Gentleman is right to stress the importance of studying expanding markets, and ensuring that we produce the right sorts of goods and services and that Government purchasing encourages their manufacture in the UK. We should sell such goods and services and not underestimate our ability to sell services around the world—not just in the financial and legal sectors, but in the cultural field, where we have a unique selling proposition, which we should develop further. We should be thinking about building on our commonalities with the countries in question, as well as ensuring that we do not ignore other growing countries.

I am sorry that the hon. Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) has left the Chamber. It was a pleasure to work with him at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, not only because of the work we all did, as the hon. Member for Romford will know, on returning the Turks and Caicos Islands to functioning democracy but because of his interest in Africa. I engaged with him on the issue of Somali pirates and my shadow ministerial colleagues engaged with him on Africa.

The hon. Member for North West Norfolk was right to stress that many of the world’s fastest-growing countries are in Africa, and in the Commonwealth, and he is absolutely right that we therefore need to put in more diplomatic and commercial effort. I hasten to add that I would like the banks to be a bit more helpful to and co-operative with companies trying to expand and inevitably dealing with cash-flow issues. In manufacturing in particular, the banks are not as helpful as they should be—certainly not in the west midlands. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to stress those issues because they are areas that we ought to develop, but the matter is not exclusive to our relationships with Europe; it is part of an expanding international trading community, in which we ought to be involved.

I slightly query the hon. Gentleman’s stress on trade delegations, although I do not in any way underestimate their impact. When I was in Indonesia in July, it was clear that the Government trade delegation that had been there had been helpful and significant. We really need to follow up on that, and I am not sure whether we are doing enough.

Trade delegations are important, but we do not need one to Australia. Businessmen, politicians, academics and others are backwards and forwards to Australia and Canada. We should treat trade with such countries as part of our normal trading pattern. It seems to me that trade delegations are to open up markets and relationships. As things proceed positively—we hope—in Burma, we will undoubtedly need to be developing more there. That is the role of trade delegations, but we should be considering how we, our embassies and our high commissions around the world, facilitate the operation of businesses. We should also be moving towards doing normal business, as though going from Birmingham to Brisbane was like going from London to Edinburgh, rather than treating such business as separate, and just part of foreign policy.

To ensure that the Minister has time to reply, I shall make just one final point. I return to the question of the British independent overseas territories. As I said earlier, I congratulate the hon. Member for Romford on his work in raising the prominence of the overseas territories here in Parliament. There is no taxation without representation, but also no representation without taxation, so I am not entirely sure exactly how their having direct representation would work out.

The hon. Member for Romford is right to stress the strategic importance of some of the territories, but it worries me that we sometimes focus on countries that have, for one reason or another, political or media prominence but do not represent the real markets that we ought to be considering—the ones from which we get the volume and the ones that will be the hugely growing economies of the future. I conclude by saying that the hon. Gentleman has opened up a number of issues, and one day we might be able to have a debate without Europe dominating so much.

Antarctic Bill

Debate between Lord Spellar and Andrew Rosindell

Friday 2nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Rosindell]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. We have indeed worked very well together on the issue of the Chagos Islands—the British Indian Ocean Territory—which is another policy that I hope the Minister will review. Yes, we will work with Argentina and Chile on the issue of Antarctica—it is our responsibility to work with all the nations that are signatories to the Antarctic treaty—but it would help the cause if they respected the sovereignty of territories that are under the Crown. It is not helpful that countries such as Argentina in particular ignore the democratic wishes of the people of the Falkland Islands and retain an illegal claim over that territory. I hope that they will take the hon. Gentleman’s advice and show respect for the traditions that we all respect, namely democracy and the right to self-determination.

One organisation maintains the British presence in the Antarctic like no other. It is a body with a proud record of scientific research and unparalleled achievements in the field of polar science. It is, of course, the world-class British Antarctic Survey, which, until today, faced a battle for its own survival as the result of a foolhardy proposal by the Natural Environment Research Council to merge BAS with the National Oceanography Centre. I could not have supported that plan in any way whatever.

[Mr Spellar]

I do not wish to appear churlish, but does the hon. Gentleman not agree that it is unfortunate that we had to await a report of the Science and Technology Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), before the Government took action to slap down the proposal, instead of their intervening at an early stage for all the good reasons that the hon. Gentleman and other Members have mentioned?

[Andrew Rosindell]

I commend the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) and his Committee for its report, which has certainly made a contribution, but the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) might not be aware of the impact of the letter that the Minister recently received from the all-party polar regions group. I had his response today. There has been collaboration from all parties to end the proposal, with many of us working together on it, and all those who have spoken up against it should take some credit. I completely agree, however, with his commendation of that report.

Antarctic Bill

Debate between Lord Spellar and Andrew Rosindell

Friday 2nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Spellar]

My hon. Friend and fellow allotment holder is exactly right. It is of considerable concern that no proper evaluation has been made of what take of krill in the Southern ocean is sustainable right the way up the food chain. Much more scientific work will need to be done before we understand the matter. Harvesting is right and proper, but we do not want mining of the populations in the Southern ocean, because of the deep long-term effects all the way up the food chain. I understand that even now there is considerable concern about whether there are adequate food supplies for penguins in the area. That demonstrates the enormous importance of the Southern ocean for the ecosystem, although, as I have indicated, it goes much wider than the Southern ocean area. I agree with him about that and with his comments about the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Implementation of the treaty is rightly welcomed here, but the FCO should engage actively with other signatories to ensure the more rapid implementation of this important work.

Those measures are extremely welcome, and I am sure that any concerns that hon. Members have can be dealt with in Committee, as the hon. Member for Stroud indicated. The broad thrust, however, has support across the House. It is slightly disturbing and contradictory, then, that alongside these excellent measures we are looking at proposals to merge the British Antarctic Survey and the National Oceanography Centre. As I indicated in an intervention, the decision not to do that was extremely welcome, and I once again place on the record my tribute to the Science and Technology Committee, under its excellent Chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), for producing a report that was highly critical of that measure. Its criticism was based not only on the scientific contribution, the excellent work done and the loss of scientific capability but, as hon. Members have mentioned, on a concern about the message it might send in the south Atlantic area.

Our noble colleague Lord West rightly drew attention to another problem that he claimed could lead to us sleepwalking towards another Falklands—a matter of enormous concern to him, obviously, given his heroic record.

[Andrew Rosindell]

The right hon. Gentleman might like to take the opportunity to confirm that should a British overseas territory, such as the Falkland Islands, be threatened, the Labour party would be 100% in favour of defending the right to self-determination of the peoples of that territory, unlike what happened in 1982, when many Labour Members opposed the actions of Her Majesty’s Government.

[Mr Spellar]

I regret and resent that question for two reasons: first, because the then Labour Opposition supported the action of the Government, and, secondly, because of the reasons for the action. I did not raise this before, because I thought this was a bipartisan issue, but the hon. Gentleman knows full well that it was the withdrawal of British capability in the south Atlantic by the Government he so praises that encouraged the Argentines to believe that we were losing interest, unlike the position taken by Jim Callaghan when he was Prime Minister, which he protected. It is outrageous for the hon. Gentleman to try to play politics. Unfortunately for him, when he chose his weapon, he chose a boomerang.

If the connection I have described was so obvious to many hon. Members in both Houses, I am slightly surprised that it was not so obvious to civil servants, the quango or Ministers. Notwithstanding that, it is extremely welcome that we have made the change we have, which enhances the measure we are considering today. It is a worthy and timely measure, and I hope that in responding the Minister will say not only what actions the Government will take, but what encouragement they will give to speed up international co-operation.