Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 15th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Geraint Davies]

Until recently, it was just Lord Livingston from our point of view. He could go in without any photocopier or camera and try to memorise what was there, and move out. More recently, access has been enabled for some of our MEPs. However, this is a case of thousands of people—indeed, 1.2 million people have signed a petition because they are concerned about TTIP—banging on the door and wanting access, and realising belatedly the real risks in front of us.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Sixteen people want to speak in the debate, as well as those on the Front Benches. Those who are intervening also want to speak, and they are in danger of dropping down the list. I am trying to keep the debate tight, so I hope Members will think about their interventions. It is up to Geraint Davies whether he gives way to Mr Spellar.

[Geraint Davies]

indicated assent.

[Mr Spellar]

Briefly, does my hon. Friend think that this will be a mixed competence agreement?

[Geraint Davies]

I very much hope it will be, as I said, but I do not know, and that is the whole point. We do not know whether it will be mixed competence— in other words, we do not know whether it will be railroaded through without any ratification here before implementation, as was the case with the Peruvian and Colombian treaties. This has not been made up; this is the sort of lack of democracy that has already been railroaded through, and there is real fear that it will happen again. I say that because we face austerity in Europe in the aftermath of the banking crisis, and a Prime Minister who has naturally said that he can see the flashing red lights on the front of the global economy, and that he wants to put a rocket booster under TTIP. There is enormous pressure to have a quick deal.

I am in favour of trade. I think trade is good, and anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of economics—I like to think that the Minister has that—will know that the law of comparative advantage will normally generate the fruits of trade. Those fruits are meant to be something in the order of £93 billion per year for Europe, and £74 billion to the United States. Cecilia Malmström, the negotiator and commissioner on this, has said that there will be growth and jobs, although I realise that there is a lot of controversy and different figures are being thrown around. However, it is generally accepted that trade generates added value.

One question for us concerns where the fruits of trade go. Do they go to the many, or are they stockpiled offshore by multinational giants in untaxed profits? Fundamentally, we are talking about whether the trade deal will undermine our democracy, our public services, our rights, our health, our environment and so on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) not only on securing the debate but on making it clear in his introduction that he is in favour of trade, and free trade. However, I think he must also accept that he is in some strange company with that particular argument. Many of those campaigning on this issue are definitely not in favour of trade, and I have been on public platforms where they have actually declared as much. I think that they are also against capitalism, and they are definitely against anything to do with the United States. It is interesting to note that, whereas we have a huge number of trade agreements, this issue has only become contentious when the United States has become involved.

We are talking about the creation of a free trade area and a trading and investing bloc amounting to about half the world’s GDP. That is significant to all of us who argue strongly that engagement in the European Union as part of a wider market is enormously important to working people in this country. Engagement in that much wider market, and, in particular, setting better benchmarks for world trade, is also enormously important, but it does not seem to have any impact on organisations such as 38 Degrees. Like other Members who have spoken, I have a slightly ambivalent attitude to 38 Degrees. It has some very decent supporters, many of whom are very concerned and engaged citizens, but it also has a nihilist, hysterical leadership.

[Mr Robin Walker]

I should just like to put on the record—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. If the hon. Gentleman is taking advantage of the Chamber’s good nature, I should say to him that to intervene immediately after making a speech is slightly unfair.

[Mr Spellar]

I note that all these publications mention a number of cases, including that of Philip Morris Australia. That case has been proceeding for some time. Can anyone tell me what is happening to it? Has it gone anywhere? Anyone can sue, but securing an outcome is very different, whether or not the case is being heard in the domestic courts. I understand that it is not classified as a trade deal, but is governed by World Trade Organisation rules. In any event, I do not think that that case and a number of others have gone anywhere.

I do not exonerate the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which has not dealt with the matter. I raised it with the former trade Minister, and I have raised it with the current trade Minister. Various cases are cited—normally the same cases—but no one seems to come up with any explanation of what they are actually about. If they are about breach of contract, that is one thing. Regrettably, in my view, but perfectly legitimately, or lawfully, the Government are entering into long-term contracts in the probation service. If a new Government wanted to change that, there would be breach of contract proceedings, and they might well be better dealt with in domestic courts, but they also might be better dealt with through arbitration, which we have in a whole number of other areas. We have industrial relations courts and we have various arbitration systems in this country. Therefore, having the full panoply might not be right, but I do accept that there are concerns. There are concerns about whether there would be a ratchet effect. That is why it is very commendable that the EU has been undertaking consultation, and that is also why it is very welcome that there is a possible pause at the moment, because we need to be assured that, for example, changes made to the NHS would be reversible, although I have to say that—this message should be very clear between now and 7 May—the biggest threat of privatisation of the NHS is the re-election of this Conservative Government.

In many respects the effect of TTIP on this has been dealt with in letters to the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) from the EU, spelling out the protections there.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

Does my right my hon. Friend accept, however, that there is a disagreement between many eminent lawyers as to whether TTIP will apply to the NHS, regardless of what the Government say? The other thing not in the Government’s favour when they argue about protecting the NHS is that the intent of many of the provisions in the Health and Social Care Act 2012 is to impose marketisation on our NHS, so the direction of travel is very much in favour of trade under TTIP. That undermines the Government’s case against it.

[Mr Spellar]

They are not in favour of trade; they are in favour of privatisation—and that would be true with domestic companies as well, by the way. That is the major threat, but my hon. Friend is right that we need to insist on an absolutely clear exemption of the NHS from these provisions.

At the same time we also need to be arguing about the benefits of trade, however. Trade has not only been the basis on which the wealth and prosperity of this country and our people have been built, but over the course of just about 20 years hundreds of millions of people in China have been lifted out of poverty by the favourable impact of trade, in what has probably been the biggest movement of social progress in numbers terms in history. That is why the new Indian Government are seeking to open up their economy as well.

Who benefits from trade restrictions? It is not the workers, nor the consumers. The people who benefit have almost universally been—this has been the argument for the last two centuries in this House between and within parties—the monopolists, the middlemen, and the incompetent or corrupt bureaucrats. We need only look at the situation in Africa where a very small percentage of trade is between African countries because of restrictions there. That is why it is so regrettable that the Bali agreement to free up that trade has not happened; the stalling of that is undesirable.

Those are the benefits, and they are benefits for our engineering companies and many of our food manufacturing companies. That is why it is so important that we resolve these other issues, because the benefits are there and the prizes are great.

There are those who are against this agreement on principle. I am in favour of trade on principle and in favour of this agreement, but in order for it to be effective we must make sure that we get these safeguards.