Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Cryer and Earl Russell

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th January 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Cryer) (Lab)]

My Lords, I will begin with Amendments 95 and 96 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell.

Amendment 95 proposes requiring GBE to publish an annual budget report and send it to Parliament through the Commons Energy Security and Net Zero Select Committee—or its successor, as he said, since its name seems to keep changing every five minutes. Amendment 96 proposes requiring GBE to publish an annual report on various topics which must also be sent to the Select Committee. GBE will already have a requirement to produce publicly available annual reports and accounts at Companies House, and the Secretary of State will lay copies before Parliament.

The noble Earl, Lord Russell, also mentioned the requirement that the Secretary of State appear before the Select Committee to speak to those reports. That requirement is already fulfilled. I know that Select Committees cannot subpoena witnesses, so there is no compulsion, but the Secretary of State and other Ministers regularly appear before relevant Select Committees. I emphasise other Ministers with specific interests. Once GBE is up and running, and producing these accounts, that is the time when the Secretary of State will appear before the relevant Select Committees. In theory, the Secretary of State does not have to appear—as I said, there is no compulsion—but it would be pretty odd if they did not do so under those circumstances.

There are also additional requirements on government-owned companies to ensure transparency and accountability. These include the obligation to follow the Treasury’s directions on accounts through the powers extended in the Government Resources and Accounts Act 2000, and laid out in the Government Financial Reporting Manual and related “Dear Accounting Officer” letters. Furthermore, GBE will be required to report on its governance around, exposure to, and risk of, climate-related scenarios in its operations as set out by the Task Force on Climate-Related Financial Disclosures a couple of years ago.

I acknowledge the noble Lord’s expectation that Parliament will hold a strong interest in the performance of GBE, which anybody who knows anything about how Parliament works would expect. I fully anticipate that the relevant Select Committees will call representatives from the company and from the department to provide evidence when required.

The point about hydrogen made by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, is a little wide of the scope of the amendment. However, I remind noble Lords that the exact mix of technologies in which GBE, as an operationally independent company, chooses to invest will be determined by its board in due course. His prediction—he is inviting me to look into the future, and I suppose he is doing the same—is that, as technology advances, hydrogen starts to fall in cost. That is fairly sensible, although I do not ask the noble Lord to hold me to it, because we are looking into the future and we do not know what technologies there will be then.

Amendment 97 proposes that GBE reviews the impact of its activities on sustainable development in the UK. This Government—this has been made very clear and repeatedly so—firmly believe in a healthy natural environment and that is critical to a strong economy and to sustainable growth and development. Our commitment to the environment is unwavering and will be in the future, including through meeting the Environment Act 2021 targets and halting biodiversity decline by 2030. That is a pretty demanding target, but that is what we have set out for five years’ time. I assure the noble Earl that the projects in which GBE is involved will be subject to the usual and rigorous planning and environmental regulations, where the impacts on the environment and habitats are considered. The Bill focuses on establishing the company, and adding more detail at this point may restrict its activities or add layers to its reporting and governance.

Amendment 117, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, seeks to legislate the scrutiny of GBE by relevant Select Committees. My noble friend and I have touched on that to some extent. This amendment goes beyond the precedent and practice of the involvement of Select Committees in public appointments. The chief executive of Great British Energy, once appointed, will also be its chief accounting officer and will be accountable to Parliament for their stewardship of GBE and its funds. As is common practice for public bodies, the management and leadership of GBE will be available to the relevant Select Committees as needed. There is no real need to legislate on this arrangement at this point.

I remind noble Lords that the chief accounting officer would, in all likelihood, be called before the Public Accounts Committee. Over the past few years, the PAC was chaired by Margaret Hodge, as was, who is now the noble Baroness, Lady Hodge; she was followed by the honourable Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch. Those who have seen those sessions know what an acute and thorough grilling that committee gives to anybody who appears in front of it. That Select Committee is always chaired by a Member of the Opposition; that is set up in the Standing Orders of the House of Commons. It is now chaired by the honourable Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury. Having served with him in the other place for more than 20 years, I assure noble Lords that he will be just as incisive as his predecessors.

The Cabinet Office guidance on pre-appointment scrutiny by House of Commons Select Committees provides criteria and processes for such roles. It sets out that decisions on the scrutiny of individual posts should be made between the Secretary of State, the chair of the relevant Select Committee and the Cabinet Office. It is not common practice for this to be set in primary legislation. As per this guidance, no public body currently appears to have its full board subject to that kind of pre-appointment scrutiny. We anticipate recruitment for the substantive board to begin over the course of this year and will ensure that it is undertaken in a manner that aligns with best practice. To reassure the noble Baroness—

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I am sorry to intervene, but I think the noble Lord has moved on to the next group of amendments in his response to me, unless I am mistaken, because the next one is on government appointments, is it not?

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

No, at present I am talking about Amendment 117.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

Oh, I am sorry.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thought the noble Lord had moved on; I apologise for interrupting.

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

I am glad I was able to reassure the noble Earl. I hope that I have provided the assurances and explanations sought by noble Lords in tabling these amendments, and I sincerely hope that they will not press them.

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[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that question. I cannot add anything to what I said before. GBE will look at a range of technology and sources. The whole of energy policy is predicated on security of supply and range of supply, because at various times in British history, although those two things have not been absent at the same time—or perhaps they have, briefly—there have been times when one or the other has been absent. If it is possible for hydrogen to play a part in that security of supply and range of supply—it certainly would on the latter—I do not see why that should not be part of the nation’s energy supply in the future.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the discussion on this group of amendments, and I thank the Minister for responding to me; I apologise for interrupting him. I appreciate everything he said, and I appreciate that there will be reports on GB Energy and that there are lots of opportunities for parliamentary scrutiny. It is appropriate that we ask these questions. The amendments in this group and others look to go a bit further to ensure that certain things will be reported on.

In response to the discussion on the previous group, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, asked me whether we were looking for a separate report. In my mind, this is about making sure that GB Energy produces a really good-quality annual report that covers a broad range of areas and is open and transparent about its activities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

Before the Minister responds, I should have pointed this out before, but I was not aware: reading out speeches from another Member is not acceptable, according to the Companion. That is partly my fault. I apologise: I should have said something.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I apologise; I thought that it was acceptable. The noble Lord should have intervened earlier if it was not. I would not have done it if I had known that it was not acceptable, so I apologise to the Committee.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Cryer and Earl Russell

Committee stage
Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Cryer) (Lab)]

My Lords, I now turn, as you would expect, to Amendments 66, 86, 86A and 87, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. As I have said, and as my noble friend has said previously, Clause 6 sets out that the Secretary of State will be able to give directions to Great British Energy, and that Great British Energy must comply with those directions.

As Great British Energy will be operationally independent, the intention is that the power will be used only when it is really needed. This will ensure that GBE has the space it requires to fulfil its role and deliver its strategic priorities. I draw the House’s attention to the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, in this context.

The purpose of the clause is to ensure that there is a mechanism in place should any urgent or unforeseen circumstances arise. For example, it could be used if the Secretary of State considers that they need to give GBE a direction that is in the interest of national security or otherwise in the public interest. The amendments before us would risk delaying the Secretary of State’s ability to give Great British Energy that direction, potentially compromising national security under certain circumstances.

The noble Earl, Lord Russell, raised the perfectly reasonable points of accountability and scrutiny. I am not impugning his motives—or the motives of anybody else who has tabled amendments—but if there was an issue of national security that perhaps took place at the start of a recess, it would seriously hamper the Secretary of State’s ability to act.

The noble Earl also raised, interestingly, the possibility of Labour losing the next election. It may come as a shock, but we are not actually planning to lose the next election. However, the mechanism of accountability and the decisions of this Government and future Governments are subject to the views of voters. That is part of the democratic process. We might not like a future Government exercising the directions we have put on the statute book, but that probably applies to past Governments as well. It is part of the democratic process and the process of accountability and scrutiny.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, would take this point further by requiring the resolution of each House, which I genuinely do not think is practicable. However, to ensure transparency and accountability, any directions given to Great British Energy will be published and laid before Parliament before they are given.

Further, Clause 6 requires that the Secretary of State must consult GBE and other persons considered appropriate, before giving directions to GBE. This means that GBE’s management and its board—yet to be appointed—will have the opportunity to express any reservations they have about the direction to Ministers before any such direction is made. If appropriate, this could include the National Energy System Operator, the Climate Change Committee—which has been consulted by successive Governments—the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority, Great British Nuclear and the National Wealth Fund, as well as groups not referenced in Amendment 86.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, mentioned at least two of the organisations on that list; he mentioned others too, as I think did the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. We could end up with a list as long as your arm of bodies that have to be consulted, which would seriously hamper the Secretary of State’s room for manoeuvre.

Finally, it is not unusual for a Secretary of State to be able to direct an arm’s-length body and such powers are found in several pieces of legislation—again referenced by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. In the specific context of government-owned companies, such powers are, for example, included in the Energy Act 2023, which created Great British Nuclear, where named stakeholders are also not included in the directions clause.

For these reasons, I hope the noble Earl recognises that adding this detail would not be beneficial and will withdraw his amendment.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

In my speech, I recognised the needs of national emergencies or an energy emergency. One of the options I offered the Government was to allow them to amend my amendment to exempt those situations from the need to give an Oral Statement. Will the Minister respond to that specific point, please?

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

The noble Earl makes a fair comment. However, what he is putting forward is far too prescriptive. There are plenty of precedents for Secretaries of State being able to operate in this way.

I am starting to sound like the secretary of the Baroness Noakes fan club, but the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, pointed out that there is the ability to summon the Secretary of State before a Select Committee. There are various Select Committees which have the ability to summon Secretaries of State after the fact. Ministers of all Governments might not be that keen on appearing before Select Committees, but they do not have a lot of choice in the matter. In the vast majority of cases when they are summoned, they appear before the Select Committee and give an account of their actions.