The Government's Plan for Brexit

Joanna Cherry Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Gethins]

The Minister makes—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend—he is not yet a Minister, but let’s give it time—makes an excellent point. There is chaos, pure and simple. The chaos is the fault not of the judges but of the Government who have carried on the irresponsibility of the Vote Leave campaign by continuing to give us no details.

We are well aware that the Secretary of State does not like the use of the prerogative, but this could all have been avoided. Let us give credit where it is due: I give credit to David Cameron—hon. Members will not hear this often from SNP Members, and, frankly, they will not hear it often from Conservative Members either—who sat down with the then First Minister of Scotland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond), and hammered out the Edinburgh agreement to give the Scottish independence referendum a legal footing to remove any uncertainty. I will read a little of agreement, which was agreed by the Westminster Government and the Scottish Government—and full credit goes to everybody, particularly the officials who worked so hard on it. It states:

“The governments are agreed that the referendum should…have a clear legal base”—

just imagine if the Government had done that—

“be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament;…be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, governments and people; and…deliver a fair test and a decisive expression of the views of people…and a result that everyone will respect.”

It went on:

“The two governments are committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and of the rest of the United Kingdom.”

The question is: why was there so little preparation? Was it negligence, breath-taking complacency, or did they think that everyone would be okay regardless and they did not need to bother?

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

If my hon. Friend has been following the Supreme Court case as closely as I have, he will be aware that it was pointed out by senior counsel for the respondents yesterday that the Government had the opportunity to give legal force to this referendum, as a result of the amendment proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond), but they specifically said that they did not want to do so. The now Leader of the House, who was then the Minister for Europe, said:

“The legislation is about holding a vote; it makes no provision for what follows. The referendum is advisory”.—[Official Report, 16 June 2015; Vol. 597, c. 231.]

It was said quite clearly by the Government that it was their intention to make no provision for what would follow.

[Stephen Gethins]

My hon. and learned Friend makes a very fine point, as always.

Let me make another comparison. We are here to scrutinise the work of the Government. They put forward manifestos before elections, and we scrutinise those. No one questions the idea that the Government should try to prepare a manifesto. Before elections, officials pore over the manifestos of the parties standing, including even the no-hopers—some poor soul in the civil service has to go through the Labour party manifesto!

Whatever happened, the Government got it wrong and need to change course. That is the responsibility of the Members who campaigned for out. It is not just us asking these questions: Manfred Weber, president of the European People’s party group in the European Parliament, has said:

“I haven’t really heard how the British government want to tackle Brexit or what Brexit really means.”

The Foreign Secretary has some responsibility, and has a job on his hands. I hope everyone on the Government Benches is taking him terribly seriously nowadays, as they have been told to do so. He is determined to make a “titanic success” of this process, but he has been telling everyone a different story. I wonder if that goes beyond the Brexit process. What about when he decides what Christmas card he should give his Foreign Secretary counterparts? Will it be a Christmas tree, or is that perhaps a bit too German? Will it be the flight into Egypt, or is that a bit too soft on refugees? Will he go for Santa on his way from Lapland with his elves, or does that give him freedom of movement problems? Perhaps everyone will just get two and be done with it.

Look at the chaos at the heart of this Government and compare and contrast it with the Scottish Government. Ireland is a hugely important partner and key nation—a partner nation and our sister nation. Charlie Flanagan told his Government’s Brexit Committee that he had no idea how the UK would approach Brexit. The Irish Minister for Jobs described the International Trade Secretary as like a husband

“who wants a divorce, but “

to

“keep all the assets and the family home.”

Compare that with the reception that the First Minister got in Dublin just last week. Compare it with the partnership that we are building. [Interruption.] Members call getting a positive response grandstanding! The Government wish they could get a positive response from a European partner. Even James Reilly, the deputy leader of Fine Gael, said:

“We are very much heartened by the fact that Scotland voted to stay in the EU. We would be very supportive of ensuring that Scotland’s voice is heard during the UK negotiations, as well as the voices of our fellow Celts north of the Border, who also voted to stay within the EU.”

The Government are in chaos, pure and simple. That chaos is affecting our day-to-day lives and will continue to do so. This is too important to let the Government off the hook about it. It is too important not to have full scrutiny, and it is too important to the powers of the devolved Administrations for it to be left purely to this place. That is why we cannot back the Secretary of State’s amendment today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Paterson]

Emphatically yes. If the hon. Lady had listened to my speeches during the referendum campaign, she would know that I said, “And, if appropriate, more.” What we will now be able to do is to embrace technology. The EU is becoming the museum of world farming because it is so extraordinarily hostile to technology—and that also applies to fishing.

The hon. Lady has also mentioned immigration—quite rightly. The most angry people I met when I was at DEFRA were the fruit farmers in Essex, Kent and Hereford who had been deprived by the then Home Secretary, now our Prime Minister, who had stopped the seasonal agricultural workers scheme, which brought in 21,250 highly skilled Romanians and Bulgarians before their countries became full members. I worked hard with my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) and the then Home Secretary to see how we could work our way around this. The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) is absolutely right—we need a supply of skilled labour to work in our horticultural, fruit-picking and vegetable industry, and also in food processing.

At the other end of the scale, I know an eye surgeon whose family—they are Sufi Muslims—came from the United Provinces of India. She gave me, unprovoked—I have clean hands; she started it—the most extraordinary lecture attacking current immigration policy whereby she has to take less qualified, less skilled, less safe and less experienced eye surgeons because they have European passports, and she cannot choose more skilled and safer ones from Bangalore, Hong Kong or San Diego. I would like us to have the choice of the world’s workers—whether fruit packers or eye surgeons—on a permit scheme. I wholly endorse the comments of my right hon. Friends the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) and for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) because it would send out a tremendous signal if we stated here and now that there are very large numbers of EU citizens working in our economy who make an enormous contribution. We should give them, up to a certain date, the right of abode, and from then on move to a permit system.

We said that we would take back control of our ability to trade around the world. SNP Members make a huge fuss about the single market and the customs union. We have to leave the single market if we want to come out from under the cosh of the European Court of Justice. The single market does not exist anyway. My noble Friend Lord Bamford recently gave a very good speech in another place saying that there are 10 standards for brake lights on tractors within the current so-called single market. It is a non-problem. People just punch in the information when they go on the production line.

[Joanna Cherry]

I am interested in what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. Can he tell me why the Conservative manifesto, on which his party fought the last election, stated:

“We say: yes to the Single Market”?

[Mr Paterson]

I am speaking for the Vote Leave campaign, which made it very clear that we would not be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and that we would be able to make trade treaties around the world. Also—this was massively popular during the campaign—if we leave the customs union and get outside fortress Europe, the prices of everyday goods, food and clothing will come down. That will be of massive benefit to our consumers, and it is another example of why this is the establishment against the people.

The same thing is happening in Europe. We saw the results of the referendum in Italy this week, and there will soon be elections in Holland, France and Germany. Opposition Members should wake up to the phenomenon that we have allies in those countries who want what they would call an open Brexit. They want to trade with us, so we should be offering them zero for zero on tariffs.

Ilse Aigner is a senior member of the Christian Social Union in Bavaria with whom I worked extremely closely when she was the federal Agriculture Minister. Only last week, in her role as Economic Affairs Minister for Bavaria, she said to her federal counterpart, “Don’t mess up Brexit. We don’t want recession in Bavaria; we want to continue selling our products.” As well as the 17.4 million people here who voted for Brexit, we have significant interests in Europe on our side.

Quotes have been bandied about—including one that was, I think, a perversion of something that Helmuth von Moltke said—and I close with two. Napoleon, who knew a thing or two about winning battles, said:

“I never had a plan of operations”.

Carl von Clausewitz said:

“Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination.”

Good luck to the Government; I will vote for the amendment tonight.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), particularly as I will say something about legislative consent motions, about which we have tussled previously. I draw his attention to something that may interest him regarding what he said towards the end of his speech. If he would care to look at page 154 of the transcript of the Supreme Court proceedings yesterday afternoon, he will see that the Supreme Court referred to the fact that at the time that the Bill to permit the referendum was going through this House, no less than the Government spokesperson, the then Minister for Europe, now Leader of the House, said:

“The legislation is about holding a vote; it makes no provision for what follows. The referendum is advisory”.—[Official Report, 16 June 2015; Vol. 597, c. 231.]

Now is the time for this House to make provision about what follows on from the vote.

What I really want to speak about, in the brief time I have, is the concern on the Scottish National party Benches that the motion makes no call for the devolved nations to have a formal role, or for their agreement to be sought before triggering article 50. The right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) made much of his desire to protect the concerns of the 48% across the UK who voted to remain part of the EU. My concern, and the concern of my colleagues, is to protect the interests of the 62% of Scots who voted to remain part of the EU. I am sure some of my hon. Friends sitting on the Benches behind me will be concerned to protect the interests of the 56% of Northern Irish voters who voted to remain in the EU.

Triggering article 50 will lead to the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament being curtailed and the rights of individuals and businesses being affected. That is why the Lord Advocate has been on his feet this afternoon, across the road in the Supreme Court, arguing that the consent of the Scottish Parliament should be sought. Like the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), I do not want to talk about the legalities; but I want to talk about the political implications of the line the Government have adopted in the Supreme Court.

The Exiting the European Union Committee was told, by a witness at our very first session, that failure to obtain the consent of the Scottish Parliament to the negotiations around article 50 would trigger a constitutional crisis.

[John Redwood]

Does the hon. and learned Lady not understand that when we get the powers back from the European Union more power can go to the Scottish Parliament?

[Joanna Cherry]

The right hon. Gentleman is getting rather ahead of himself, but we on the SNP Benches will make a careful note of that, because the person who officially speaks for Scotland—the one Tory MP in Scotland—seems rather unclear about what powers will be returned to Scotland. But we take on board what the right hon. Gentleman says and we make a careful note of it.

[Stephen Gethins]

My hon. and learned Friend makes a very good point. The Secretary of State said that no law would be changed for which this Parliament has a responsibility. Will the law be changed for which the Scottish Parliament has responsibility? That question has not been answered yet.

[Joanna Cherry]

Indeed that question has not been answered yet. The point of my speech this afternoon is to say that the effect of triggering article 50 is to trigger an inevitable process for leaving the EU, which means that the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament will be affected—and that triggers the Sewel convention. My concern is that yesterday, when the Advocate General spoke on behalf of the British Government, he basically told the Supreme Court that the Sewel convention has no legal effect whatever—that it is a political convention that can be overridden at the whim of this Parliament.

The Supreme Court will determine the legality of the situation, but the politics of that statement is not what we were told by the Secretary of State for Scotland, and by others in the Conservative party, when the Scotland Bill was going through the House. As Lord Sumption, a Justice of the Supreme Court, asked the Advocate General yesterday afternoon, what was the point of putting the Sewel convention on a legal footing in statute if it has no legal force? The political consequence of the whole thrust of the arguments made on behalf of the UK Government in the Supreme Court is to show utter disrespect to the Sewel convention and utter disrespect to the wishes of voters in Scotland, and indeed in Northern Ireland.

That does not sit well with the respect agenda promised by the previous Prime Minister; with us in Scotland being told during the independence referendum that we were an equal partner in this Union; and with us also being told during that referendum campaign, by Ruth Davidson and others, that the only way to guarantee Scotland’s membership of the EU was to vote to remain part of the UK. Those promises were all made on behalf of the Conservative party. The Conservative party’s legal position in the Supreme Court is to kick sand in the eyes of voters in Scotland and to dishonour those promises. My point is that that has serious political consequences for this Union.

I know that the Secretary of State is a very reasonable man and that he is conscious that not to give Scotland a role in this process, regardless of what the Supreme Court says, would be deeply damaging from a political and constitutional point of view. So my request to him this afternoon is this. Please, Secretary of State, persuade the Prime Minister and her Cabinet colleagues to involve the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament formally in this process. Listen to what my colleagues in Edinburgh have to say, because they are the legitimate voice of the Scottish people—they won a third term recently. Involve us in the process. Honour the words of the Secretary of State for Scotland, treat the Sewel convention seriously, and regardless of what the Supreme Court says, from a political point of view seek our consent to this process.

Parliamentary Scrutiny of Leaving the EU

Joanna Cherry Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Keir Starmer]

I will not take long responding to that, because I have made the point, which is that the mandate on 23 June was not a mandate as to the terms, and I think that most people understand that; I cannot put it any clearer than that.

There is the question of how Members would vote, what they would vote on, and what happens if Parliament does not like the terms. The Secretary of State, in his statement on 5 September, emphasised that he would consult widely, including the devolved countries, which of course are very important in all this, and which deserve scrutiny of how exit will impact each of them. He also said he would

“strive to build national consensus around our approach.”—[Official Report, 5 September 2016; Vol. 614, c. 38.]

The question for the Secretary of State is: how will he build consensus around his approach if he will not tell the House what his approach is?

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

The hon. and learned Gentleman is, of course, a first-rate lawyer of international renown, and it is a real pleasure to hear him develop his argument. I am interested in what he said about the devolved Administrations. Does he agree that the Scottish Government and other devolved Administrations should have a central role in negotiations on the UK’s terms for exiting the European Union, and will he and his party throw their weight behind that argument?

[Keir Starmer]

I do agree with that, absolutely, and we will throw our weight behind it. In fairness, the Prime Minister signalled that by her early visits as soon as she assumed office. I was hesitant to answer that question in case I got relegated from second to third or even fourth-rate lawyer. I will press on—

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Gethins]

Not at the moment.

That point reminds me that the Institute for Government has said:

“There is a gaping void in the Government negotiating strategy.”

There is also a gaping void in their policy. They are responsible for negotiating on behalf of all of us, which should concern us. We have not seen any more details. We have not seen a Green Paper, although I am not sure whether Ministers have.

We should think about the impact. The Fraser of Allander Institute says that in Scotland alone—I know hon. Members from elsewhere in the United Kingdom have concerns—there will be 3% fewer jobs by the time we leave the European Union, which could mean 80,000 jobs. Real wages could be 7% lower, which will affect households. The Treasury—these are the Government’s own figures—warns that the cost of leaving the European Union could be £66 billion.

[Joanna Cherry]

My hon. Friend will be aware that the financial services sector in Scotland supports 150,000 jobs, many of which are in my Edinburgh South West constituency. He will also be aware that there is concern in the sector about whether passporting rights will be lost or kept as a result of Brexit. Does he agree that, if the Government are not successful in negotiating passporting rights for the financial sector, many jobs are likely to leave Scotland and go to the European continent?

[Stephen Gethins]

My hon. and learned Friend rightly makes an excellent point on the effect on her constituency. Professor Graeme Roy from the Fraser of Allander Institute has said that leaving the EU would have a

“significant negative impact on the Scottish economy”,

which rings true with my hon. and learned Friend’s point.

Next Steps in Leaving the European Union

Joanna Cherry Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

Certainly any further changes in law will require parliamentary process. On article 50, the right hon. Lady is right that I have fought hard for the rights of Parliament with respect to the Executive, but I would never put Parliament in a position of being in a clash with the British people. That is what an article 50 vote would do.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

Yesterday on “The Andrew Marr Show”, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who is not in his place today, said:

“The reason the pound keeps zooming south is that absolutely nobody has the faintest idea what exactly we’re going to put in place”

for the single market. I rather got the impression from the Secretary of State earlier that he did not agree with that statement. If he does not, to what does he attribute the repeated plummeting of the pound since 24 June, and does he agree with the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), who is no longer in his place, that it is a good thing that the pound keeps plummeting?

[Mr Davis]

It is an unwise Minister, particularly one who is not a Treasury Minister, who passes comment on what the right value of the pound is. There are benefits and disadvantages in movements in either direction. If we look at other countries—it is safer for me to do that—we can see that the euro is widely viewed as being undervalued for the German economy and overvalued for the Greek economy. The hon. and learned Lady can decide for herself which she prefers, but the Greek economy is in a worse state than the German economy.

I do not agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). There will definitely be very large markets for British industry after we exit the European Union. What the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) has seen on the currency markets has been a response to an article about President Hollande’s comments, massively exacerbated by program trading, which is corrected later on.

Exiting the European Union

Joanna Cherry Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. He has campaigned on this matter for a very long time, I know. All I can say is that he should bear in mind that I am not the Home Secretary. My job is to bring the power back so that the Home Secretary can exercise it. I am quite sure she will listen to what he has said and pay great attention to it.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

Today, the Japanese Government have provided the British people with more detail on what Brexit means than the UK Government. Most of us had hoped that we would hear more this afternoon, but I am sad to say that what we have heard was sadly lacking in detail and could best be described as the Ladybird guide to exiting the European Union. This is not a petty point; like many other hon. Members, this summer I have been speaking with major employers in my constituency—in particular, the financial sector in Edinburgh South West and the universities, Heriot-Watt and Napier, which are huge employers. They are all very keen to see a detailed explanation of what Brexit will mean for them, their institutions and their employees, my constituents. When is the Minister going to give this House that sort of detailed explanation?

[Mr Davis]

The first point to make is that we have been in the European Union for 40-odd years. The links are very complicated. The effects on much of our society are quite complex, and some of them are quite expensive to replicate. The hon. and learned Lady will get the information she is asking for, but stepwise, as it comes out and as we generate it, and it will be accurate and useful at that point in time. A few months is not going to be a problem for her constituents.