Zero-emission Buses

Debate between Jim Shannon and Robert Goodwill

Tuesday 5th July 2022 Westminster Hall

[Sir Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered zero emission buses in the UK.

It is a great pleasure to open the debate under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray—indeed, we will be turning the tables this afternoon when you serve as a member of my Committee—and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing the debate.

I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group for the bus and coach industry, and my comments will relate mainly to the manufacture and delivery of green buses in this country. There are many other connected issues, such as the franchising operations and how those are delivered, and the fares that are charged, but, given that one of the major bus and coach manufacturers, Alexander Dennis Ltd, is located in my constituency, I will concentrate on manufacturing. Alexander Dennis Ltd also has a factory in Falkirk, and I am sure the hon. Member for Falkirk (John Mc Nally) will be commenting on that.

Alexander Dennis Ltd sprang out of the Plaxton company, which has been established in Scarborough for more than 100 years, and it has 31,000 vehicles in service around the world, including the three-axle double-deckers that we see on the streets of Hong Kong, 200 battery electric vehicles being delivered to the Republic of Ireland, and 200 Enviro500 top-of-the-fleet double-deckers, which are being delivered to Berlin. The company truly is making a product for the global market.

Alexander Dennis Ltd employs 1,850 people in the United Kingdom on eight sites, and the company can deliver diesel buses—the traditional motive power—as well as battery electric buses, which make up the majority of the new-generation buses it produces, and hydrogen buses, on which other manufacturers are majoring.

Later this year, Alexander Dennis Ltd will deliver a fully autonomous bus. In some ways, it is amazing that the company is ahead of the rail industry. Apart from one or two examples such as the docklands light railway, the majority of trains still have drivers, despite the fact that trains run on rails and do not need steering, whereas Alexander Dennis will deliver a new generation of autonomous buses—driverless buses—which I believe will lead the way in making buses even more cost-effective.

Why are we here today? I am afraid that, despite the rhetoric from the Government, the orders for the 4,000 promised buses are not coming through. We were promised 4,000 zero-emission buses under the ZEBRA—zero-emission bus regional areas—scheme. We were told initially that they would be delivered during this Parliament, and Members will understand why the manufacturers got themselves geared up and ready to produce those buses. Then we were told, “Well, the buses will be on order by the end of the Parliament.” Most recently, we understand that funding will be available by the end of the Parliament. I am afraid, Minister, this is not good enough. We need to get those buses on our streets and delivering not only for those who work in the bus industry but for those passengers who genuinely want to use an environmentally friendly mode of transport.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on introducing the debate on what is a topical subject in the real sense of the word, and I am pleased to see the Minister in her place.

We in Northern Ireland have made a clear commitment to these new, zero-emission buses through Translink, and we have constructed a programme for the next few years, through to 2032, of which the Translink Gliders will be part, but for that to happen we all need to take advantage of the opportunity to manufacture those buses. We in Northern can do that, alongside the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents. Does he agree that Northern Ireland can be part of that greater plan for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to work together to produce these buses?

[Sir Robert Goodwill]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and every part of the United Kingdom should be able to benefit from the next generation of clean and green buses. Indeed, Northern Ireland is well placed because Wrightbus, which manufactures in Ballymena in the constituency of the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), can deliver hydrogen-propelled buses. I will say more about that later.

The ZEBRA scheme is a Government-led green initiative that the industry has responded to by designing the vehicles to help to deliver it. But where are the orders? The inertia threatens the Government’s net zero strategy. Bus registrations are already at an all-time low. The pandemic hit bus operators and passengers numbers still have not recovered.

We need volume production to sustain our three indigenous manufacturers: Switch Mobility in Leeds, Wrightbus in Ballymena and Alexander Dennis at its locations in Scotland and Scarborough. We need a flow of orders, not large orders in the future that would only favour Chinese manufacturers. The UK market for buses grew 28% in 2021 from a historically low baseline, but the massive, state-supported Chinese manufacturer Yutong saw its market share triple at the same time.

I would be the last person to advocate a protectionist policy; the “America first” policy was so damaging to vehicle manufacturing in America because it made steel and aluminium expensive and therefore manufactured products such as buses expensive. Competition always drives innovation and efficiency, but it must be fair competition. Not only does the Chinese economy run on rules different from those in Europe, but manufacturing in China benefits from lower energy prices. I remind hon. Members that China still buys gas and oil from Russia.

China also has disproportionate influence over supplies of raw materials, including lithium, which is vital to make the current generation of batteries. That is why we must also make progress on our own indigenous battery production by not only using Cornish lithium but setting up factories such as the Britishvolt facility that is planned in Blyth in the north-east of England. We must take the lead in looking at the next-generation solid-state batteries, which perhaps will not require the rare-earth materials and minerals that the Chinese have been so successful at cornering, particularly in some African states.

Some of the delays in placing orders are down to negotiations between operators and transport authorities to deliver, for example, bus priority schemes. There is no point in taking a zero-emission bus if it is stuck in the same queue as diesel and petrol cars. I hope the Minister can break the logjam and get the orders on the production lines here in the United Kingdom—not in China—and fitted with UK batteries, not batteries made in China.

The hon. Member for North Antrim would have liked to be here today, but instead I will say a little about how Northern Ireland is progressing. Wrightbus is now under the ownership of Jo Bamford, who is part of the JCB dynasty and has taken that company, which was in danger of failing, and brought it into the 21st century. It is majoring on hydrogen buses. There are great opportunities for hydrogen fuel cell buses, too, particularly when we can develop our green hydrogen market in the UK, because 95% of the hydrogen produced in this country is so-called blue hydrogen derived from natural gas. That will be a useful step on the road to net zero but, ultimately, we need green hydrogen produced by the fantastic nuclear industry in Cumbria, which I know the Minister—an atomic kitten, as she describes herself—will be keen to promote.

Buses are a really good place to start because they go back to the depot every night, so they can charge up and refuel. Hydrogen is not ubiquitous throughout the country, but if we are to move forward on it, buses will take the lead. JCB’s heavy plant operation is looking at spark-ignition hydrogen engines for large construction operations. Hydrogen is the future in many applications, and certainly for lorries that do not go back to the depot. In the meantime, battery electric is the low-hanging fruit that we can grasp quickly to deliver buses that do not need to rely on fossil fuels.

I have three questions for the Minister. First, when will the promised 4,000 ZEBRA zero-emission buses be on our streets? Secondly, what can she do to ensure they are British and not Chinese built? Unfortunately, a number of local authorities and bus companies have already ordered Chinese buses, which are currently on our streets. Thirdly—we need to be careful about this, because it is easy to grasp a figure out of the air and say, “This is the target”—after due consideration of what is practical, reasonable and can be delivered by the industry, when would be a realistic date to phase out the sale of diesel buses? That is particularly important because buses, unlike other motor vehicles, tend to have a very long operational life, so those delivered in 2027-28 are still likely to be on the roads in 2050, which is of course our target for net zero.

I thank hon. Members for listening to the points I have made. I hope we have a bright future with sustainable bus transport produced by British manufacturers such as Alexander Dennis Ltd in Scarborough, which is a very efficient, cost-effective factory. I look forward to hearing other hon. Members’ comments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

That is quite phenomenal timing, Mrs Murray. Thank you for calling me, and I also thank all Members for their contributions. I am sorry that I could not be here for them all. I had to go over and chair something and then come away. It was quite a run back for an old boy. I was breaking the Olympic record to get back here in time. Thank you for giving me the chance to speak.

First of all, I thank the right hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Sir Robert Goodwill) for leading the debate. This word is often used in this Chamber, and I will use it again because it is the right one: he has championed this case on many occasions here in Westminster Hall and in the main Chamber. He is not a stranger to this issue, so I am very pleased to hear his comments and those of others.

We are living in a very modern world where we are all more aware of emissions and the impacts they can have on our society. That is especially the case with transport, which, it is fair to say, is one of the largest emitters of carbon. We must have the correct strategies in place. I mentioned that in my earlier intervention on the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard). We need an overarching strategy.

I know that the Minister is always very eager to answer on these issues, but we need a strategy for the whole of the United Kingdom—England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I know that the responsibilities lie separately, but it is good to have a strategy where we can all aim for the same goal. Perhaps we can even all get there together. It is good to discuss this matter and share ideas on improving our transport modes and choices.

There is no doubt that, since the pandemic, people are less inclined to use public transport. People would say, “There’s disease, there’s covid—be careful,” so public transport probably fell out of favour for a period. That may be for hygiene reasons or because of higher transmission levels, or merely because we are not used to using public transport in the same way. However, there is a strategy in Northern Ireland.

[Sir Robert Goodwill]

The point the hon. Member makes is absolutely right. Many people who use buses are pensioners using their concessionary passes and, of course, they were the people who were most fearful of mixing with others on public transport during the pandemic. That was a real hit for the bus companies.

[Jim Shannon]

The right hon. Gentleman is right. The way in which those problems all came together was like a perfect storm. We have a strategy in Northern Ireland, as I mentioned in my intervention on the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport.

As I was saying, commuter journeys are 25% lower than pre-pandemic levels, so there is a target to achieve. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister how it will be achieved. Transport authorities in England have published a local bus service improvement plan. If Members get the chance, they should read, because it certainly does look good. It aims to increase local bus services and the number of bus lanes.

There are also plans in place to reduce our public transport emissions by phasing out the selling of non-zero emission buses by 2032. I am pleased to say that in Northern Ireland we are on the right track. Our Translink Gliders, run by Transport NI, were designed to improve the efficiency of mass transit in the city centre of Belfast by connecting areas of Belfast to outskirts of the city centre, and that comes down as far as us in Strangford and Newtownards. In 2021, the scheme was extended to the wider Belfast areas, so it took us in. Gliders use electric hybrid technology, which is a much better alternative to a purely diesel bus, so there are many things that can be done. The right hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby referred to hydrogen. My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) is not here, but Wrightbus in his constituency is a leader in the field. It is really good to see that.

By using Gliders, we have been able to improve congestion, encourage the use of public transport and provide a more environmentally friendly mode of travelling. The peak year before covid was 2018-19—every year before covid was a peak year, but the covid years became peak for a different reason—with 84.5 million passenger journeys, which is a considerable contribution by many towards zero emissions. I believe that the general public wish to address the issue of emissions.

Last Thursday, I asked the Minister a question on behalf of those of us who live in rural areas. Bus travel is not always our first choice. We take other modes of transport, such as walking or cycling. For us, bus travel is about travelling from where we live in the countryside to the main towns. We have a park and ride system and can then use Gliders to get around. There are good things we can do, and the Gliders have to be emission free. It all helps with the bigger picture.

I am also pleased that a local park and ride has been approved in my constituency. That has been made official in the last month. It will enable employees who work in Belfast city centre and many others to park and avail of public transport instead of driving. People living on the Ards peninsula, Ards town or even as far as Donaghadee, close to Bangor, can come to the park and ride in Ards and then use the Glider transport. That will definitely help with the issue of zero emissions, and those zero-emission buses are part of that.

While effort has certainly been made across all areas of the United Kingdom, there is still a long way to go. The United Kingdom has a target to reach net zero by 2050, but that will not come from England alone. We all support the commitments made at COP26 and by our COP26 President, but there must be a joint approach. Although NI transport policies come from Translink, a funded body with a different arrangement than that on the mainland, we must ensure there is parallel discussion to reach our target goals. I know that the Minister is very agreeable to my points. She always responds and has those discussions with me. The Minister does not need to answer today, though I would be very pleased if her civil servants were able to give an idea of what discussions have taken place with Ministers at the Northern Ireland Assembly and, in particular, Transport NI.

Some £525 million has been allocated for England to support the delivery of zero-emission buses. Some £320 million of that has already been allocated, with the remainder due to be allocated by 2024. Funding is an instrumental part of ensuring that we can meet our targets, and I welcome the Government’s commitment to that. It is good to see the Minister in her place to back that up as well.

I encourage the COP26 President and the Transport Secretary in particular to engage with our Infrastructure Minister and the relevant bodies back home to assess how the devolved Assemblies can play their part in meeting our levelling-up and transport targets. We will play our part in Northern Ireland, because we believe we have a big role to play. Northern Ireland’s first zero-emission buses have made their way on to the streets this year. We must ensure that we continue this progression to hydrogen and battery-electric transport across the UK in order to have an efficient bus strategy and sustainable green transport. I know that we all want to see that, and we know the Minister has been given the task.

I look forward to hearing from both shadow Ministers—the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss) and the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands)—who are from this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, always better together, and I hope we can devise a strategy to energise us all, every region together.

UK-EU Fisheries Allocations

Debate between Jim Shannon and Robert Goodwill

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I do agree with that. That is one of the thrusts of my comments this morning: the Minister and the Government must ensure that we have transparency and a settled perspective for the fishing fleets in Kilkeel, Portavogie in my constituency, Ardglass and across the whole of Northern Ireland.

French fishermen and the French Government complain about the UK not issuing enough fishing licences to fish in waters off the south coast of England. The sentiment in Northern Ireland is that we wish we had half of France’s problems when it comes to fishing opportunities and the ability to catch fish whenever we can. Following the 2016 referendum, a wagon train—or, to use a pun, a boatload—of officials from London visited County Down to gain an understanding of the fishing fleets’ operations and the path to market for seafood landed at the ports. The interdependence of fishing operations was recorded multiple times. The routes to the markets in GB, the EU and further afield were clearly explained. What was the result of that? We are still wondering.

The first part was the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol. Senior fisheries officials from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs visited Northern Ireland in early January 2020 to proclaim the benefits of the protocol for the fishing industry. We do not see those benefits. The “best of both worlds” was proclaimed on the tin and we heard that the proof of the pudding would be in the eating—we heard all the wee puns that we all use every day—but, as we often find, the devil is in the detail.

[Mr Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con)]

I understand what the hon. Gentleman is talking about, having been to Portavogie and Kilkeel myself. Does he agree that one of the complications of the protocol relates to the movement of fish, particularly prawns and scampi, from Scotland to Northern Ireland? None of it is marketed in Northern Ireland, because it all goes back to Whitby, in my constituency, to be processed. Does he agree that this is a problem that needs sorting out? The movement between GB and Northern Ireland is not just about retail, but about processing goods as well.

[Jim Shannon]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and I thank him for identifying that issue. He is a fellow member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and I am very pleased that we visited Portavogie. I also know that he has a particular interest in fishing. Just last week, we discussed some fishing industry issues that were of interest to both of us, and we are on the same page on them.

On 24 December 2020, the second part of the result was unveiled: the trade and co-operation agreement. The UK’s objective of becoming an independent coastal state was realised. Increased shares of fishing opportunities were secured, albeit at lower levels than in the expectations that had been raised by London.

What did that mean for local fishermen? According to the protocol, access to the EU market would be near seamless for seafood from Northern Ireland. That was good news, but there was one issue: fishermen would have to catch and land the seafood before they exported it, as referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. Regardless of neighbourhood agreements dating from the 1960s, Northern Ireland fishing vessels were excluded from all waters around Ireland, and vice versa, from 1 January.

The neighbourhood or voisinage agreement extends to inshore waters. Significant economic pain was endured until this matter was resolved in mid-2021. As we approach the first anniversary of the TCA, waters between six and 12 miles remain out of bounds, yet, right now, it is access to these waters that counts. To use an analogy, they are like a farm that straddles the land border. Imagine the headlines if a landowner was unable to work his land on the other side of the border to which he lives. We have examples of that in Northern Ireland, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) is aware.

This is particularly frustrating because, despite the hours upon hours of explaining these issues to officials from London, and despite Dublin exuding its desire for free trade between both parts of the island, a deal was struck with the EU that ignored fishery access issues around the island of Ireland. The frustration that fishermen in my constituency and across Northern Ireland have is palatable. The TCA permitted access for EU fishermen—French fishermen—to waters off England’s south coast. English fishermen continue to be abhorred by that, and we support them.

To cap matters off, the TCA confirms that fishermen from the Isle of Man can have access to Irish or EU waters in the Irish sea, from which Northern Ireland’s fishermen remain excluded. My goodness, it is hard to believe. You could not write this story. You could not make this up. It is quite unbelievable.

Leaving the critical issue aside, there is then the issue of getting the fish and shellfish ashore so they can be processed, packed and exported. That is the very issue referred to by the right hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill). Fishermen can catch a fish beyond the harbour at Portavogie, Kilkeel or Ardglass, but when they bring it back in they are subjected to all sorts of rules, tariffs and levies.

Some £100 million-worth of seafood is exported annually from Northern Ireland. Around 60% by value goes to GB, including to Whitby and other places, while 30% goes to the EU and 10% to the rest of the world. The protocol and the TCA combined confirm that the waters around Northern Ireland, including the water that local fishing vessels float on in their home ports, is sovereign UK territory. It is the land mass that is the EU’s single market. Remember that what we currently have is implementation of some 20% of the protocol. It has permitted seamless trade between Northern Ireland and the EU, but what would the result be if the protocol was implemented in its entirety, as some would like?

It is ironic that if the protocol is implemented in its entirety, every time a locally owned fishing vessel, based in a local harbour such as Portavogie in my constituency, returned to its home port in Northern Ireland, it would have to comply with EU regulations requiring it to act as though it came from a third country—my goodness—such as Iceland, Norway or Russia. Northern Ireland’s fishermen would be foreigners in their home ports. It is simply absurd. It is hard to comprehend or understand, or to even find out why this is happening.