UK Digital and Tech Industries

Debate between Jim Shannon and Liam Byrne

Wednesday 18th April 2018 Westminster Hall

[Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms McDonagh. I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on securing the debate.

I recognise the enormous progress that many of us have celebrated this afternoon, but I want to sound a note of warning about becoming complacent. For all the progress that we have talked about in our constituencies and around the country, the truth is that, across the horizon, others are moving much faster. We have heard about some of the big technology firms that are troubling us from the west coast of the United States, but look east, to Alibaba, Tencent, and Baidu.

Look at the fact that China is now not only the country that invented paper currency, but will soon become the first cashless society, where everybody pays for everything on WeChat. That country is now backed by the biggest science spend on Earth. There are countries around the world moving much faster than us, and if we want to ensure that this great superpower of the steam age does not become an also-ran in the cyber age, the Government will need to make a number of important policy reforms and changes of direction, three of which I will touch on very quickly.

First, we have to ensure that the digital economy in this country has a much more robust foundation of trust. Trust is the foundation of trade; it always has been and always will be. However, as we have seen in the debate surrounding Cambridge Analytica and Facebook, that trust is evaporating very quickly, which is why we need a clear statement of principles and a clear Bill of digital or data rights for the 21st century.

The truth is that we are going into a period of rapid regulation and re-regulation. That is perfectly normal and sensible. There was not just one Factory Act during the course of the 19th century; there were 17. We regulated again and again as the technology and the economics of production changed. That is what we are about to do in this country, yet if we do not have a clear statement of principles, that regulation will be difficult for anybody, frankly, to anticipate.

It should not simply be about our rights as consumers; it should be, as the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) said, about basic equalities. In South Korea, they want to use wearable technology to increase life expectancy by three years. How do we ensure that those new privileges are not simply the preserve of those who can afford the technology? How do we ensure that we democratise both the protections that we need and the progress that we want to share? That is why a Bill of digital rights is so important.

It is important that the Government pick up on one crucial component of trust: the electronic ID system—a public choice for EID—that we currently lack. At the moment, public data is scattered between the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, the Passport Office, the Department for Work and Pensions, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and the Government Gateway, which I see the Minister’s Department has now claimed. At the moment, that information is so disjointed that we cannot use it as citizens to create a secure public EID system, as they have done in Estonia. That has been the key to Estonia’s creation of 3,000 public e-services and 5,000 private e-services. It is the foundation of what is now the most advanced digital society on Earth. The Government need to put in place those important foundations of trust.

The second point is on infrastructure. It is not just here in the Houses of Parliament where the digital infrastructure is appalling. I do not know about you, Ms McDonagh, but I certainly cannot get a mobile signal in my office, on the fifth floor of Portcullis House, and I know that frustration is widely shared, but it is not just a problem here. In fact, the areas of this country that Brexit will hit hardest are those where download speeds are slowest. The parts of the country that will be hurt most by Brexit are therefore the least prepared to prosper in the new digital society that we are all so much looking forward to.

Other countries are racing ahead of us in terms of the targets that they are putting in place for broadband access. I was privileged to visit South Korea last week, where they have 60% fibre to the premises. What is it here in Britain? It is 3%. Not only do they have much greater penetration of fibre than we do, they have not one but three mobile networks delivering 100% broadband access, and they will commercialise 5G not in 2020, but this year. That is why the Government should be far more ambitious about universal service obligation for broadband access. We proposed 30 megabits per second, and proposed putting £1.6 billion behind that. The Government should be more ambitious than they are today. We will soon go to consultation on what it would take in terms of public investment to commercialise widespread 5G. We hope that the Government will look closely at our results.

[Jim Shannon]

Through the confidence and supply arrangement that the Democratic Unionist party made with the Conservative party, we secured £150 million for broadband to take us up to that level, so we can continue to be the leader in regions across the whole of the United Kingdom for economic development and delivery.

[Liam Byrne]

Well, lucky you! If the west midlands had enjoyed a per capita bung on the same level as Northern Ireland, an extra £600 million would be coming into my region; I know I am not the only one to look at the deal that the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues skilfully struck with some jealousy.

The final component is skills. My hon. Friends the Members for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) and for York Central (Rachael Maskell) made brilliant speeches about the importance of skills. I come from the city that is home to Soho House. Soho Manufactory was the first great factory, built in 1766. People have heard, of course, of James Watt, but many forget Matthew Boulton. It was Boulton who put together not only the best engineers in the world, but the best designers in the world. Where did he get them from? He brought engravers and artists from France, Germany and central Europe. That was the strength of the business; it married design brilliance and technical brilliance.

What do we have today, 250 years later? In Jaguar Land Rover, we have a company producing vehicles where the infotainment system is now worth more than the engine. Design brilliance and technical excellence need to go together, but design brilliance is being smashed out of the curriculum at the moment. I speak as a father of a boy going through his GCSEs, so I see it first-hand when I go home.

Young people are at the sharp end of the jobs risk of automation—that was confirmed by the International Monetary Fund yesterday, and by the OECD a week or two ago. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West mentioned, older workers are also crucial. By the age of 52, a working-class man in this country has paid £103,000 in national insurance. What happens if he loses his job? He gets sent down the job centre like everybody else, with no extra help, retraining or reskilling for the digital economy. Yet this is the country of the Open University, the Workers’ Educational Association, Unionlearn, and great education entrepreneurs such as Dr Sue Black and Martha Lane Fox. We should be bringing those players together to create a different kind of lifelong learning for the 21st century.

This is a nation of scientific genius. We have been burying our sovereigns with our scientists since we interred Isaac Newton over the road in Westminster abbey. We are the only country in the world that could make films about great scientists such as Turing and Hawking. We are the nation of the industrial revolution, but if we do not change course soon, this foundation of the industrial revolution will not be the leader in the fourth industrial revolution.

Rural Communities in Scotland: Broadband

Debate between Jim Shannon and Liam Byrne

Wednesday 22nd November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth; thank you for preserving a modicum of order this morning as tempers rose. I congratulate the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) on securing the debate. He is right that in the 21st century, broadband is not a luxury but an economic necessity. He eloquently argued that it is integral not simply to the way that we live, but to the way that we want to work. His timing is well chosen, because of course later this afternoon the Chancellor will have to stand up in the Chamber and try to explain to us all why a Conservative Government, and previously a Conservative-led coalition, have presided over a slower recovery after the financial crash than that following the great Wall Street crash of 1929.

As we rally behind a better future, growing the digital economy is clearly one of our most important opportunities. There are about 1.6 million people working in the digital economy today, but on average they are paid about 40% more than the national average. If we want to raise productivity growth rates and give our country a pay rise, we have to accelerate the roll-out of the digital infrastructure. I am sure he will not tell us this, but I very much hope that the Minister has been massively successful with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor and that there will be plenty of good news about broadband this afternoon.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Although the Government are pushing for flexible working time for parents of young children, the lack of decent broadband is grossly affecting people’s ability to work from home. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that we need a UK-wide project—in other words, across Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and all of England—to end the isolation of rural communities and to increase jobs among small and medium-sized businesses and enterprises that need that rural broadband connection?

[Liam Byrne]

I completely agree, and some hon. Members are luckier than others in the resources that they have been given to deliver that vision. Over the coming years, we will be extremely interested to see what Northern Ireland has secured and delivered with the £1 billion that it was offered to prop the Government up and keep them in power.

We have heard a shocking litany of complaints today from the hon. Members for Angus (Kirstene Hair), for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown), for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham), for Moray (Douglas Ross) and for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid) about the very high levels of dissatisfaction among their constituents and the very poor levels of service. I know that those complaints will have made a big impression on the Minister. The call made by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk for devolution of further power to councils raises an interesting point. My understanding is that the Scottish Government are not empowered to deliver that at the moment; it requires central Government to legislate. Perhaps the Minister will have more to say on that when he winds up; he may correct me, if I have grasped the wrong end of the stick. The challenge was brilliantly summarised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Martin Whitfield), who described not only how superfast broadband is essential to the way that we want to live today, but how people are now scurrying between the wi-fi of various cafés to run their businesses. That is surely not the basis of the economic rebound that we want to see in the years to come.

I want to touch on three points in the debate, and they are about infrastructure, take-up and the way that we approach this policy problem. The bad tempers that we have heard this morning really illustrate that a new approach will be needed if we are to deliver for the people of Scotland over the coming years. On infrastructure, the state of affairs was well summarised. It is quite clear that broadband access is worse in Scotland than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Earlier this year, Which? found that the worst three local authorities for broadband access are all in rural Scotland. The present consensus that a lack of broadband access is harming economic growth is particularly troubling. Last week, the National Housing Federation reported:

“Rural connectivity to broadband...limits the number of people willing to start and run businesses from rural areas.”

That was at the heart of the argument presented by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk today. It is a real worry, and I hope that the Minister will explain to us what the Government are going to do about it.

The poor state of infrastructure, though, is only half the story. Often, these debates centre on theoretical access, which is quite different from the access that people actually receive. The headlines that I saw said that 83% of properties in Scotland can access superfast broadband, but it is much poorer in rural areas, where 46% can access superfast broadband. Furthermore, when people are asked, as they have been by Which?, about the kind of service that they actually receive, the estimates are that two thirds of rural connections receive an average speed of below 10 megabits per second, which is of course much lower than the Government’s universal service obligation. I understand the presentational issues that all Governments have to conjure with, but we have to ask ourselves whether we are doing the debate any service by continuing to talk about theoretical access speeds when we know that problems between the cabinet and the home mean that the rates actually received are far less effective than those advertised.

My second point is on the take-up of broadband services, which is much lower in Scotland than elsewhere in the country. There is a question about whether that is something to do with awareness and can be remedied by Government here in Westminster or, indeed, in Scotland. The broad point that should emerge from today’s debate is that there is no single actor in this policy environment that will make all the difference; a very different kind of collaboration will be required in the years to come. We need to create a policy environment in which, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian said, players can join in delivering these kinds of services. In some parts of Scotland, it will be much more effective for co-operative organisations to get stuck in and deliver the service in completely new ways. Many say to us that there is just not an encouraging policy environment for that at the moment.

My final point is about the poor level of collaboration between the Conservative Government here in Westminster and the Scottish National party Government in Scotland. We saw something of the character of that relationship this morning. It is not good for delivering progress and an awful lot more energy needs to be put into collaborating. It is just not appropriate for the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for the Rural Economy and Connectivity, Mr Ewing, to have to take the extraordinary step of using a Scottish parliamentary answer to demand action on broadband from the UK Government. If that is how relationships are now being conducted, I am afraid that both sides have something to answer for.

Labour has sought to strengthen universal service obligations. Indeed, our amendments for a universal service obligation of 30 megabits per second passed in the Lords; it was unfortunate that the Government overturned them in the Commons. We think that a universal service obligation of 30 megabits per second should be delivered by 2022. That was the position set out in our manifesto, and we hope that the Chancellor has heeded that advice and will deliver something akin to it this afternoon.

Let me conclude by echoing the excellent words of my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian, who said that new inequalities must not be allowed to emerge in the digital economy. This is an area of economic progress that is simply too important for anyone to be left behind; our country simply cannot afford it. We look forward to what the Minister will tell us about remedying the problems that have been eloquently described and set out by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk this morning.