Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
The Minister seems to think that community resolutions can be appropriate for violent crime, but does he think that even in those circumstances they should perhaps form part of a criminal record at least?
Damian Green
The hon. Lady will know that we are looking at the whole issue of out-of-court disposals. We want to reach a position where the use, as she says, of community resolutions is restricted to crimes where this is appropriate, but not for those where such a resolution would damage the public’s confidence in the criminal justice system. I hope she acknowledges that the amount of violent crime in this country is at such a low level now.
Hillsborough
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Mrs May
As I said in response to earlier questions, those who have refused to be interviewed so far have been regarded as witnesses, which means that there is no requirement for them to take part in an interview at this stage. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about who should be the judge of whether they have anything to add to the investigation, but as I have said, they are being regarded as witnesses and are therefore not required to be interviewed.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
I hope that this question will not be regarded as trivial, but at a meeting I attended recently with my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), it was suggested that the facilities for the families at the inquests—toilets, tea and coffee-making facilities, catering and comfortable seating, for example—were not quite as good as they should be. Will the Home Secretary check that they are in fact up to scratch, because it is essential that those families should be made to feel as welcome and as comfortable as possible at the inquests?
Mrs May
The hon. Lady makes a valid point. As I said earlier, it is my understanding that every effort is being made to ensure that the facilities are appropriate for the families, and that it will be as easy as possible for them to attend. She will have noted that the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), is in his place. He will have heard her comments, and I am sure that he will take them away to the Ministry of Justice.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for bringing to the House the excellent work that Staffordshire police force is doing to tackle this particular problem, which is an issue that blights many areas up and down the country. Other forces would do well to look at the example set by Staffordshire police, and recognise the importance of this crime in the eyes of the public and follow its example.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
Oak Tree farm in Staffordshire was the site of an illegal waste operation, and often such operations are a front for organised crime. Will the Secretary of State commit to working with colleagues in the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Department for Communities and Local Government? Investigations are often hampered because no one Government agency takes full responsibility for investigating what I believe are crimes.
Mrs May
The hon. Lady raises an interesting point, and the Home Department is happy to work with other Government Departments where that will genuinely help in the fight against crime. As she says, issues sometimes fall between the stalls of different Departments, and I will certainly look into the particular matter she has raised.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Minister for completing the mop-up on Question 5.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
On 6,000 occasions in the last year, the Met police used cautions for serious violent and sexual offences, including seven cases of rape. A caution obviously involves an admission of guilt, and there is huge concern about this. I have to say that the Secretary of State’s answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) seemed slightly flippant. She did not seem to understand the seriousness of the concerns. No one seems to understand why this is happening. What is the Home Secretary going to do to ensure that cautions are used only in appropriate circumstances?
Mrs May
I have not given any flippant response. What I said was that the Government were reviewing the issue. The Ministry of Justice has launched a consultation on cautions, and it is absolutely right that we should look not only at the numbers but at the evidence behind the way in which the cautions are being used and at the circumstances in which they are being used. That is what the review is about.
Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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The Solicitor-General
I shall start by speaking to the Government amendments, but I should also like to hear the comments of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) and my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), if he arrives. I shall start with amendments 22, 57 and 58.
As hon. Members will be aware, the Government are making a number of changes to the judicial appointments process, including to the selection process for the Lord Chief Justice and the heads of division. As part of the changes, the details of the selection process that are currently in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 will move into secondary legislation. There are many reasons for doing that, and many improvements are being made. There is an urgency to this, however, because the Lord Chief Justice is about to retire and we hope that it will be possible to deal with the new appointment and any consequential appointment of a head of division under the new system rather than the old. The amendments aim to achieve that by briefly inserting the new selection process into the 2005 Act, so that it applies to the appointment of Lord Judge’s successor. I must stress that it will be a transitory measure and will cease to have effect after the appointment of the next Lord Chief Justice and any consequent head of division. It is then intended that the secondary legislation will follow.
Amendments 25 to 55 deal with the technical aspects of the change to the Lord Chancellor’s role in the judicial appointments process, including the transfer to the Lord Chief Justice or the Senior President of Tribunals, as appropriate, of the power to decide upon selections made by the Judicial Appointments Commission for certain judicial offices below the High Court. The Government intend to retain the Lord Chancellor’s role in all other aspects of these appointments, particularly terms and conditions for fixed-term judicial appointments where a fee is paid. However, the Bill currently transfers the power to renew, or to refuse to renew, fixed-term judicial appointments to the Lord Chief Justice and Senior President of Tribunals. Amendments 25 to 55 therefore amend schedule 13 so that that power is retained with the Lord Chancellor. They ensure that, in exercising that role, the Lord Chancellor must, as now, if deciding not to renew a fixed-term appointment, comply with any requirement to secure the consent of the Lord Chief Justice or Senior President of Tribunals.
Amendments 23 and 24 also deal with the selection process for judicial appointments and the move from primary to secondary legislation. As part of these changes, the original idea was to move the requirement for there to be on the commission a commissioner with special knowledge of Wales into secondary legislation, but on further consideration, the Government decided that it was important to retain an appropriate level of input by a lay member of the commission with a special knowledge of Wales and that that requirement should remain in primary legislation. The amendments therefore reinstate the requirement in the 2005 Act that those selecting persons for appointment as commissioners should ensure, as far as practicable, that there is at least one lay commissioner with special knowledge of Wales.
Amendment 59 relates to the judicial deployment provisions in schedule 14. The objective is to give the Lord Chief Justice more flexibility in deploying judges to different courts and tribunals. That supports an important objective for the Government because it means that judges can be used efficiently. Individual judges will also benefit, if they have a wider breadth of experience and can develop their judicial careers as a result. The policy was brought forward in partnership with the judiciary and the aim has always been to move forward collectively in the delivery of our shared aims and objectives. After further consultation with the judiciary and further thought, it has been decided that the particular skills and experience needed in the Crown court mean that it should be removed from the flexible deployment provisions. Those matters should be dealt with by Crown court judges, as happens now.
Amendments 10 to 21 are technical and minor amendments dealing with the single family court provisions. I can be brief, because there is only one point of substance. At the moment, magistrates courts can vary maintenance orders registered with them, but because in future the family courts will be able to issue those orders, it is necessary to provide that magistrates will no longer have that variation power, which will lie with the family courts—a victory for the Committee, the other place and, of course, the Government.
New clause 5 relates to the appointment of the chief executive of the UK Supreme Court. I am confident it will be welcomed. A new clause along similar lines was tabled in the other place and again here in Committee. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice said at the time that we were going to discuss the matter with the powers that be. The appointments process for the chief executive of the UK Supreme Court has been discussed with the president of the Court, and I am pleased to report that those discussions have been successfully concluded, and the Government have therefore tabled the new clause with the Court’s agreement. Thus the president of the UK Supreme Court, not the Lord Chancellor, is responsible for the appointment of the chief executive. It is no longer necessary for the chief executive to agree the staffing structure with the Lord Chancellor, and the provision also clarifies that the Court’s officers and staff will be civil servants—something that needed to be done.
New clause 6 deals with broadcasting in the Supreme Court. To clarify matters, clause 28 expressly disapplies section 9 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981, which prohibits sound recordings in court, to facilitate court broadcasting below the UK Supreme Court. It looks odd not to confirm at the same time that the Supreme Court is able to be exempt, so new clause 6 achieves that. Let me be clear that this is about clarifying the matter; there is no question that this has caused any problem in the past.
Amendments 60, 77, 78 and 82 make consequential amendments. I now reach the point where I can say that I am looking forward to hearing the right hon. Member for Blackburn and other colleagues presenting their new clauses and amendments.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
I shall address my remarks to the Government amendments, but also to new clause 7, which deals with bailiffs, and amendment 100 on judicial diversity.
Let me start with a positive. We are pleased that the Government have seen fit to include new clause 5. These provisions were debated favourably in the other place and were introduced by the Opposition in Committee. The creation of the Supreme Court was, I think, an excellent achievement of the previous Government and it is right that Ministers have accepted the argument put to them by the Opposition and many in the profession for a further transfer of powers to strengthen the Court’s independence. We welcome the Government’s agreement with the recommendations and their decision to include in the Bill these important changes.
Continuing on a positive note, we completely accept the other Government new clauses and I am sure that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, will be pleased that a member of the Judicial Appointments Commission will have special knowledge of Wales in the future.
Amendment 100 was tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). I have not heard what he is about to say, but I feel confident that I should agree with it. The Opposition are strongly in favour of that amendment. My noble Friend Baroness Hale gave a lecture a few weeks ago, in which she stated she was going to
“start by taking it for granted that judicial diversity is a good thing.”
For the purposes of this debate, I shall use a few more words to echo the arguments that will be put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, but I think the House will agree that my noble Friend also speaks with considerable expertise on this issue.
The Government have recognised in the Bill that diversity in our judiciary is desirable, and unless we hold with the idea that talent is innately concentrated in one social group, we must acknowledge that for every exceptional judge we have, we are losing out on able candidates because we do not do enough to find them. Measures to support diversity seek not to give credit where it is not due, but to encourage ability wherever it may be found. We have seen many instances where it has been argued that merit and diversity are mutually exclusive, but we have argued that a diverse judiciary is not artificial or missing out on talent—it is quite the other way round. Diversity matters in both principle and practice. A judiciary that incorporates a range of voices, backgrounds and experiences brings more to the table. The differences, as Baroness Hale put it,
“add variety and depth to all decision-making.”
The Solicitor-General
Under the Legal Services Act 2007, the legal ombudsman only investigates cases about the service provided to the customer; it deals only with legal services that have been badly provided. If we were to say, “Oh well, let’s include bailiff services”, that would be very nice for the creditor, who would be able to report to the legal services ombudsman, but it would not help the debtors. They are the people for whom the hon. Lady is speaking, but they would not be able to complain to the legal services ombudsman because a service is not being provided to them.
Jenny Chapman
It was not me who made that suggestion; it came from the legal services ombudsman. So clearly there is a way around this matter and the Minister may wish to explore that a bit further. His intervention shows that the Government are not going to do this, but we would like them to commit to a robust complaints procedure to sort out the problems that our constituents face. They deserve access to a robust complaints procedure when things go wrong, as they too often do, so we hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will support our proposal.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
I shall speak briefly in support of a probing proposal, my new clause 17. I listened carefully to the speech made by the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman), and I entirely share and sympathise with the thrust of her argument: we do need to make sure that the regulation of the behaviour of bailiffs is not just about certification; and the continuing behaviour of individual bailiffs does need to be monitored, tracked and adequately assessed, so that regulations are adjusted to keep pace with changing practices in debt collection.
We all know that debt collection is a sad fact of life that affects a large number of our constituents. We have all, in our case loads, doubtless come across worrying stories about abuses of power. It is right to acknowledge that the Government are moving, with their transformative agenda, to address large parts of the concerns that Members rightly have. Using the existing legislation to create new regulations is a good step forward. Importantly, the strengthening of the certification process, in the form of training and the like, is a valuable way forward, as is the creation of the new fixed-fee system. As I have already said, that deals only with the point of certification and not with practice. We must be realistic and we must acknowledge that taking a snapshot of the behaviour of individual bailiffs will not deal with many of the problems that beset people who are in debt but still deserve to be treated with respect.
The Solicitor-General
Of course, there are unique circumstances in Northern Ireland, as we know, and indeed as we have discussed today in other contexts. The point I am making is that an agreement was reached in the other place on the way forward and I think that we should give it a chance. I agree with the right hon. Member for Blackburn that there has been a disappointing performance since 2005, and I am happy to make it clear from the Dispatch Box that I share his concerns about that. We have tried to do a good deal about it in the Bill. The other point I will make—I do not know how far I can take this—is that we are about to see appointments to the Court of Appeal and to very high positions in the judiciary, and there are some very good candidates who are women, but we will have to see what the outcome will be.
Turning to bailiff regulation, new clause 7 echoes an amendment that was agreed in the other place but later removed from the Bill in Committee. New clause 17 proposes a role for the court in relation to every warrant and provides for the judiciary to compile an annual report on bailiff complaints for the Lord Chancellor to consider. My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) made a compelling argument on the need for a firm response to the misbehaviour of rogue bailiffs and suggested that one way of doing so would be through the court and its procedures. The Government’s approach, which I will come to shortly, is set out in the response to the “Transforming Bailiff Action” consultation, which was published on 25 January. It sets out the reforms that will tackle what we consider to be the root problems of the complaints about bailiffs. It introduces safeguards for debtors and, equally, allows creditors to collect money they are owed, which I think all parties agree is necessary.
It remains our belief that the package of reforms offers the most effective and proportionate response to the problem of aggressive bailiffs and that it will render unnecessary some of the cost and bureaucracy inherent in the proposals of the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) and the Opposition. It will be a new world, if I may put it that way.
The Government’s reforms centre on part 3 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007—the background is one of all-party consensus—and they do six things. They remove antiquated, confusing laws and clarify what the powers of bailiffs are, so those powers will be known. Regulations that we will publish this summer and aim to implement in April 2014 will set out what goods can and cannot be seized. There will also be a clear and fair charging regime. It is iniquitous for a bailiff to turn up at a door to collect three debts and then demand three fees when he has made only one visit.
Jenny Chapman
In the interests of moving the debate along, I have made it clear that we do not disagree with the Government on any of those things. Our point relates to when things go wrong. If the Solicitor-General could respond to that, perhaps we could make some progress.
The Solicitor-General
The point is that these things have not been happening, but they will happen under the Government’s reforms. They will change the landscape. That is why the word “transforming” is in the title of the consultation—they will transform things. The enhanced certification and mandatory training will make a difference and we all agree that that is a good thing. The county court certificate to practise, which a judge can withdraw on complaint, and the offence of not having a certificate when attempting enforcement are powerful new remedies that did not exist before.
The hon. Lady mentioned the legal ombudsman. It is difficult to see how the system would work effectively under her proposal. Eighty per cent. of the cases are local council cases, so the local government ombudsman will be available for complaint. That is a remedy, but the hon. Lady is complicating things by suggesting that there should be another remedy on top of it. A certification complaint is one possible route of complaint and strong remedy, as are court procedures, which my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon has mentioned, and the local government ombudsman. The hon. Lady also mentioned a whole host of internal complaint schemes and she wants to put another scheme on top of them, but her proposal will not work legally. She is trying to patch her proposed scheme on to the Legal Services Act 2007, but the legal ombudsman looks only into complaints about the service provided to the customer, and in these circumstances the customer is the creditor. It would be nice for the creditor to have an avenue of complaint, but that would not help the debtor.
Jenny Chapman
The Solicitor-General will forgive me for saying that he is repeating himself. My point is that we want a simpler ombudsman service, under which there would be one ombudsman for complaints about bailiffs. That would be far simpler and I do not know why the Solicitor-General feels the need to repeat his earlier comments, which have already been dealt with.
The Solicitor-General
The hon. Lady’s case is compelling in the sense that there are a lot of problems with bailiffs and their misbehaviour and that that needs to change. There is cross-party support for six changes that will change the landscape, but she is saying, “Oh, we want one more thing,” but that one more thing happens to be half-baked legally and would not do the job, so I have to make that point. Of course, it is wrong to repeat things over and over again, but I am trying to get the hon. Lady to agree that hers is not a sensible proposal.
The Solicitor-General
I have failed to persuade the hon. Lady, but I will certainly not make a concession. I hope she will forgive me in due course. I am sure she will.
Although we believe that the underlying causes of most, if not all, complaints will be dealt with by our reforms, officials are working with the advice sector to consider once more the types of complaints received. They will work with them to ensure that they are adequately addressed in the regulations, which are due in the summer.
The reforms are a significant step forward and it is worth giving them a chance. I know that the hon. Member for Darlington knows that in her heart of hearts. We are confident that our reforms will have a positive effect on bailiff action. It is time for action and something is now being done. The Bill responds to the concerns that inspired new clause 7. My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon has pointed to some useful powers that can be held in reserve. It may be that in due course we will have to go that step further in court. We have given a commitment to review the reforms. That will happen one, three and, if necessary, five years after their introduction. We are working with stakeholders to ensure that there is a robust framework.
The Government are being reasonable and pro-active, so I ask the House to support the reforms. I urge the hon. Member for Darlington not to press new clause 7. My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon said that new clause 17 was a probing amendment so I hope that he will not press it. I say to the right hon. Member for Blackburn that we are disappointed, but we are doing a lot in the Bill. Is it not right to trust the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, when they are given a statutory duty such as the one in the Bill, to come up with a plan that works?
Amendment 22 agreed to.
Schedule 10
The Family Court
Amendments made: 10, page 166, line 12, after ‘court’ insert ‘and to be varied by that court’.
Amendment 11, page 167, line 15, leave out paragraph 8 and insert—
‘8 (1) Section 4 (variation etc of orders registered in a magistrates’ court) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1) (orders in relation to which section 4 applies) for “orders registered in magistrates’ courts” substitute “High Court orders registered in the family court”.
(3) In subsection (2)(a) (court of registration may vary rate of payments specified by order)—
(a) for “court of registration” substitute “family court”, and
(b) for “original court” substitute “High Court”.
(4) In subsection (2)(b) (general rule that variation of rate of payments specified by registered order is to be by court of registration) for the words from “court of registration” to the end substitute “family court.”
(5) Omit subsections (2A) to (2C), (5A), (5B) and (7).
(6) In subsection (4) (power of court of registration to remit application for variation of rate of payments to original court)—
(a) omit “it appears to the court to which”,
(b) after “registered order” insert “and it appears to the family court”,
(c) for “original court”, in both places, substitute “High Court”, and
(d) for “first-mentioned court” substitute “family court”.
(7) In subsection (5) (other circumstances in which original court has jurisdiction to vary rate of payments) for “original court” substitute “High Court”.
(8) In subsection (6A) (with the exception of power to make provision as to means of payment, magistrates’ courts in England and Wales have no power to vary certain orders made by Court of Session or by High Court in Northern Ireland)—
(a) for the words before “variation” substitute “Although such an order as is mentioned in this subsection may be varied under section 1 of the Maintenance Enforcement Act 1991 as applied by section 4A(2) of this Act, no application for any other”,
(b) for “any court” substitute “the family court”,
(c) for “that court” substitute “the family court”, and
(d) for “section 1(2)” substitute “sections 1(2) and 2(6A)”
(9) In subsection (6B) (no application to be made to a magistrates’ court for variation of certain orders) for “any court” substitute “the family court”.’.
Amendment 12, page 167, line 36, leave out ‘or an officer of that court’.
Amendment 13, page 167, line 39, leave out ‘or an officer of that court’.
Amendment 14, page 177, line 37, leave out ‘or an officer of the court’.
Amendment 15, page 177, line 40, leave out ‘, or an officer of the court,’.
Amendment 16, page 181, leave out lines 21 and 22.
Amendment 17, page 181, line 23, leave out ‘paragraphs 3 and’ and insert ‘paragraph’.
Amendment 18, page 182, line 10, leave out ‘paragraphs 4 and 5’ and insert ‘paragraph 4’.
Amendment 19, page 183, line 7, leave out ‘22,’ and insert ‘22(2),’.—(Oliver Heald.)
Schedule 11
Transfer of jurisdiction to family court
Amendments made: 20, page 188, line 14, leave out sub-paragraphs (3) to (7) and insert—
‘( ) For subsections (1A) to (1E) (powers of magistrates’ courts in England and Wales to vary registered orders) substitute—
“(1A) The family court may exercise the same powers in relation to an order registered in the family court under this Part of this Act as are exercisable by the family court under section 1 of the Maintenance Enforcement Act 1991 in relation to a qualifying periodical maintenance order (within the meaning of that section) which has been made by the family court, including the power under subsection (7) of that section to revoke, suspend, revive or vary any means of payment order (within the meaning of that subsection) made by virtue of this subsection.”’.
Amendment 21, page 216, line 37, column2, at end insert—
‘In Schedule 2, paragraph 3(3).’.—(Oliver Heald.)
Schedule 13
Judicial appointments
Amendment proposed: 100, page 224, line 42, at end insert
‘Each of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice must at all times engage in a programme of action which is designed—
(a) to secure, so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, that appointments to listed judicial offices are such that those holding such offices are reflective of the community in England and Wales;
(b) to require the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, to secure that a range of persons reflective of the community in England and Wales is available for consideration by the Judicial Appointments Commission whenever it is required to select a person to be appointed, or recommended for appointment, to a listed judicial office.’.—(Mr Straw.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
I am afraid I will sound rather slow after the previous speaker. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) made a speech at great speed; he managed to read it quickly into the record—well done.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) added his support for GPS tagging, which we will explore further in Committee. He made some sensible comments on restorative justice, emphasising the need for consent and full involvement of the victim at all times—something we will also explore deeply in Committee. We are very keen to ensure that the quality of restorative justice is maintained.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) spoke of the tensions between national and local policing, and gave his support, following Norgrove, for the single family court, as did the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes). My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn gave a succinct analysis of what is becoming known as the “bash a burglar” clause, and promoted his memoirs. We all look forward to the film of those memoirs. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) suggested that the clause was not actually that great a change; in fact, he said it was not a change at all. The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) discussed at some length the complexities and contradictions in the Bill. He highlighted some issues that I think will get a thorough airing in Committee.
The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) raised concerns about the anxiety of witnesses arising from the televising of court proceedings. We look forward to exploring those concerns fully in Committee. We are keen to ensure the protection of witnesses, victims, jurors and also defendants through the court process.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) mentioned something that I think will be of grave concern to many Members: the right of appeal on family visit visas. There are fears about the serious impact on families. Bearing in mind the high level of errors in decision making, we are keen to discuss that further. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East went on to discuss the welcome changes to drug-driving. We can all commend the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) for the work he has done in that area.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) spoke with great insight on diversity in the judiciary. We strongly welcome those changes. We are also keen to explore the issues raised by Alan Milburn in his social mobility report on the under-representation of state-educated people in the judiciary.
The hon. Members for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) spoke of the importance of amending the Public Order Act 1986. The hon. Member for Gainsborough asked that the Labour party keep an open mind, and I assure him that we will do just that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) is concerned about whether there will be sufficient resources to fight organised crime, and we share those concerns. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) discussed the scandalising of the judiciary, suggesting that it should not just be a right, but perhaps become a duty. He discussed clause 23 and expressed concerns about the practices of bailiffs, and I assure him that we will be exploring those concerns in Committee.
The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) talked about how the National Crime Agency will operate in Northern Ireland, and the Government will need to respond to his concerns. The hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) talked about the hotbed of crime that is his constituency, and about the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre. We have concerns about child protection and the NCA, which we will explore further. We are happy to give support to much of the Bill and we will not vote against it on Second Reading.
On self-defence, there is agreement across the House that a victim of burglary, who is compelled in traumatic circumstances to use force for their own protection, should be protected in law. Burglary is a terrible and invasive crime. Victims must have the right to defend themselves and their loved ones, and know that the law is on their side. The Labour Government changed the law to give that support to victims of burglary. In 2008, Labour gave victims the right to use “reasonable force” to defend their homes. That is not “reasonable force” as decided by a risk assessment; it is force that, as the Crown Prosecution Service and the Association of Chief Police Officers put it, is
“what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment”.
The current law provides a complete defence for those using reasonable force in self-defence or the defence of their loved ones or property, and according to the Director of Public Prosecutions it works very well.
Jenny Chapman
As I was about to say, we are ready and willing to engage with the Government on any proposals they have that might further improve the law. We want to see the system work as best it can for victims of crime and, of course, to see justice done in every case. However, concerns have been expressed by many outside this place, and these need answering. The Government need to assure the public that the change does not add confusion and explain exactly how it adds protection. The line between “disproportionate” and “grossly disproportionate” is still unclear.
While we are talking about how people protect themselves during a burglary, we should be just as keen to discuss how we punish a burglary or prevent it in the first place. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) has uncovered disturbing statistics about some of the sentences being handed to burglars with strings of previous convictions. The Government are introducing a number of measures in the Bill on community sentencing and the use of measures such as tagging. We need to ensure that they are used appropriately. When the Bill was introduced in the other place, it included, at the end of part 2, a rather vague clause that promised the Secretary of State for Justice scope to do what he pleased in the area of community sentencing. It is therefore welcome that, after a wait, we find that what pleases the Secretary of State has been laid out in schedule 15 for debate in this House. We welcome the inclusion of proposals permitting the extended and earlier use of restorative justice. Restorative justice is an effective tool that can do a lot to improve the experience of our justice system and what it offers victims of crime. There are questions that need to be answered on the details, however. How, where, by whom and how uniformly will restorative justice be provided?
There is much that we agree on. In his foreword to the long anticipated response to the Government’s consultation on community sentences, the Secretary of State states that, in order to be both “credible and effective”, community sentences need to strike a balance between punishing an offender for their wrongdoing and rehabilitating them to prevent a repeat offence. He also rightly notes that the public reserve some concerns about community sentences. The ambition of improving public safety and public confidence is strongly welcomed and shared across this House. In order to be “credible and effective”, however, the Secretary of State needs to get this right. The Government say they want all community sentences to include a punitive element, unless there are exceptional circumstances. We support the premise, but two questions arise: what counts as a “punitive element”, and what counts as “exceptional circumstances”? Until we hear the answers to those questions, we will not know whether there is anything new in the Government’s plan or whether the change is nothing more than window dressing.
On the extended use of tagging, we do not want this used inappropriately as a cheap alternative to prison for those who should be behind bars. If the public are to find such sentences credible, they need to be certain that they will be used with great discretion and only when wholly appropriate. I note that in 2011, eight adults convicted of rape and hundreds convicted of serious violent offences were given community sentences. It is also timely to mention the point that the public need to have faith that those supervised in the community rather than in prison are being expertly and safely supervised. This is an area where—amidst cancelled pilots and detail-light plans for managing offenders’ risk—we find some cause for concern. We look forward to exploring that further in Committee. In particular, I look forward to examining in more depth the Government’s intentions on provision in the community for female offenders. The Opposition also strongly support the provisions in schedule 13 that seek to facilitate greater diversity in judicial appointments.
There is much that we agree with in the Bill and we will not vote against it on Second Reading.
Prisons (Interference with Wireless Telegraphy) Bill (Money)
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(11 years, 8 months ago)
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Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
We are pleased to welcome the Bill and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) for introducing it. I also welcome the Minister to his post. It is most pleasing to see a Policing Minister with, shall we say, some in-depth experience of the police taking on the role.
It is right that the Prison Service should adopt helpful technological advances as they become available and that appropriate resources should be made available. The technology has been piloted since 2008, and the Opposition support the expansion of its use across the prison estate and its introduction to private prisons.
The Opposition remind the Government of the need to project-manage the programme robustly so that all equipment purchased is put to good use, staff are properly trained and the information obtained from intercepting signals is used to prevent crime without disrupting the communications of those living nearby.
Metal Theft
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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David Wright
I do, and I shall come on to the gangs who travel round estates taking property from people, often from their premises. Those gangs may do a good job clearing up material that would otherwise be fly-tipped, but they need to do it with permission, and they should be regulated.
I have been contacted by the chairman of my police authority in West Mercia, who told me that there has been an alarming increase in the number of recorded metal theft offences. An additional 131 offences were recorded when comparing April to December 2011 to April to December 2010—a 12% rise—and those figures exclude the figures for the theft of catalytic converters, which have risen by 152%, and of lead flashings, which have shown a 92% rise.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
My hon. Friend mentioned catalytic converters, which reminds me of a case in Darlington. The owners of Bathroom World—bathroom fitters—had the catalytic converter stolen from their van, resulting in their being unable to fulfil orders and spending £3,000 to replace a piece of metal that was worth just a couple of hundred pounds. There are often consequences beyond the missing piece of equipment itself.
David Wright
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to discuss the knock-on effects on businesses and on the wider economy this evening. She makes a valuable contribution.
I understand that in West Mercia, recent offences have been committed at telephone base stations and national grid substations. The view of the police in our area is that the amount of metal being stolen shows that these crimes are being perpetrated by organised criminal gangs who are diverting their activity from other criminal arenas. They are using the cash environment for metal theft to fund other crime, which is extremely worrying. Cash generated by metal theft can be diverted into other crime, including organised crime. Those arrested often have previous history for distraction burglary and rogue trader offences. That organised component of criminal activity is significant.
We have heard that the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is no longer adequate for the modern day, and we need a licensing regime, as Members have said. I shall come on to that. Metal theft is dangerous. The British Transport police report a significant increase in cable theft, and say that from April 2010 to 31 March 2011 there was a 70% increase in such theft. It is one of the biggest crimes that the railway industry has to deal with. It puts people’s lives at risk, and it costs the economy a fortune. In the Wales and Western BTP area, thefts, including attempted theft and malicious damage, rose from 369 in 2009 to 549 in 2010.
As I said earlier, public buildings are being targeted, and we have all heard stories of churches and chapels being targeted for metal theft. I was listening to Radio 4 as I travelled down from Telford yesterday, and I heard about the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) raised in an intervention. The loss that ecclesiastical insurers are willing to cover is £5,000 on a church building—£10,000 if an alarm is fitted to the roof. The problem, however, is that the scale of metal theft is enormous, and it costs tens of thousands of pounds to replace the metal stolen from church buildings. It is impossible to secure an entire building with an alarm system, so there is a serious problem.
I find it disheartening that people would want to steal from religious buildings, but it does not stop there. Some metal thieves really know how to plumb the depths. I said earlier that metal theft is not a new phenomenon, and my family has experience of that. A number of years ago, thieves stole a commemorative plaque relating to my wife’s parents from the crematorium in Shrewsbury. How low can someone go? They have to stoop pretty low to do that kind of thing, but some people are trying to stoop even lower. As we have heard, they are stealing metal from war memorials that commemorate people who made the ultimate sacrifice for our country. [Interruption.] I will not give way again, because I am running out of time.
I am pleased that steps have been taken to protect war memorials. SmartWater, which has been mentioned, is based in my constituency. The company is working to ensure that memorials are protected by using a water product to place a chemical signature on them. It is invisible to the naked eye, but it can be traced. However, as we have heard, it cannot be put on everything. It can be put on certain artefacts, and it can be used internally in buildings. People can also buy it to use in their home.
We have to get rid of the cash environment for metal. We have to make sure that people process sales through cheques, BACS or other credit systems, and we need a more robust licensing regime. Banning cash transactions on its own will not be enough. We need better licensing arrangements to tackle metal theft. We need tougher police powers. The police need the capacity to go into scrap metal dealers’ yards, inspect the premises under the licensing regime, and tally off sales, matching what has been spent with payments to people coming in. It is really important, and the Government need to act.
Protection of Freedoms Bill
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
I shall speak briefly on the issues raised by this group of proposals. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) has already stated, the all-party parliamentary group on child protection held an inquiry and took evidence from a wide range of organisations. Some people spoke for a number of organisations and some spoke in their own right. I am grateful that the Minister read and responded to the group’s report, that she met members of the group, and that she has taken on board some of the points made.
I echo the concerns of my hon. Friend the shadow Minister. We are all concerned about child protection and the abuse of children. However, abuse is at times difficult to prove, and it is certainly difficult to get convictions. Sometimes, it is difficult to get definitive evidence even when suspicions of individuals have run for a long time. Children are told to respect adults, and often the most vulnerable children are targeted by abusers, so information does not come out easily.
That is why barred list information is so important, alongside CRB information. It would be a tragedy if people who have criminal records were allowed to work with children, but we know from years of experience that people who have raised significant concerns in their relationships with children in the past go on to abuse them, and in some dreadful cases—thankfully, a minority of cases—kill them. We have a responsibility to do all that we can to prevent that, because getting this wrong could be catastrophic.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
May I take this opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) on the clarity with which she has put her case? I take a keen interest in this matter, and the Independent Safeguarding Authority is in my constituency.
The very people that my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) describes are the ones who gain under the Government’s proposals. I have in mind the words of Sir Roger Singleton, who said that the people who will be most concerned about the proposals are parents. Any parent who listened to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North will be extremely worried about what the Government propose.
Meg Munn
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, because it leads to the point that I wanted to make. It is because the risks are so great and the results of getting it wrong are so catastrophic that we need clear information and a clear procedure. That might mean that sometimes more is done than is strictly necessary, but in this area we are not talking about what is strictly necessary. In this area we have a duty to ensure that vulnerable children are as safe as possible. I therefore join my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North in asking the Minister to explain in more detail why barring information would not be more readily available. I am reassured by her statement that currently such information is clearly and easily available. It is inconceivable that we would not want that to continue.
Amendment 117, which deals with criminal record certificates, touches on a matter that needs thinking through. It might seem straightforward for a certificate to go to the person having the CRB check, but my hon. Friend has already raised concerns about that. The Christian Forum for Safeguarding has drawn to my attention correspondence between it and the CRB in which the CRB confirmed that many more certificates are returned marked “undeliverable” when addressed to the applicant than when addressed to the registered body. If only one copy is to be sent to the applicant, it obviously increases the risk that certificates will fail to reach the applicant and so cause further delays. I want to return to a point raised by my hon. Friend. CRB checks can cover a wide range of offences. For example, we could be talking about people—often men—in their 40s or 50s who are volunteering for something and who were involved in a pub brawl when they were in their early 20s. That kind of information might be on a certificate, and it could go to the wrong house and be opened by somebody else. There could be an information breach. Under the Government’s proposal, the system could be a lot more vulnerable to such things than currently.
The crucial issue is about the ability of organisations trying to recruit a volunteer or someone to a paid position to understand the situation. My hon. Friend has already quoted from the Government’s response to the all-party group’s report making it clear that this issue of the e-Bulk system—great name!—has not been clarified. If an organisation is in a position to put in place systems that it has made work, it seems a terrible shame to move to something else. I fully accept, as do my hon. Friends, that the system put in place by the previous Government had problems, but we should be addressing those problems and issues, not creating more. We have systems, such as the e-Bulk system, that are working well and which enable organisations and people—for example, a Brown Owl, a Girl Guider or a Scout leader in a local area—to know, “This is not something that I have to concern myself with. It is done centrally and there are experienced people looking at it who understand the nature of the information returned.” Now, however, they will feel in a completely different position. That will cause us great concern.
I welcome the fact that the Minister has sought to respond to the points made by the all-party group when producing the report, but the proposed measure is not the best that this, or any, Government can do. I therefore ask her to address those issues.
Lynne Featherstone
I shall come on to that because it is a complicated matter to discuss—there is “regulated”, “unregulated”, “supervised”, “unsupervised” and so on. Obviously, if an activity is unsupervised, it is regulated, so I shall come on to the issues of supervision. In an establishment such as a school, it will be difficult to persuade authorities not to pursue enhanced CRB checks. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) argued that if a referral to the ISA had not been referred to the police, the barring information would not be on the certificate. It would be helpful if I could progress with my remarks in that regard. We disagreed in Committee and I have no doubt that we will end up disagreeing today as well, but I want to assure the House that we are acting with the best of intentions and drawing the line where we believe appropriate.
As I said, bars from working with children or vulnerable groups apply to regulated activity, so it does not make sense—
Mrs Chapman
It should not come as a shock to the Minister to learn that parents do not want people who are barred from working with children to be anywhere near their children, regardless of whether they are supervised. That is our problem with the Government’s position.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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James Brokenshire
As my hon. Friend will be aware, the Government have consulted on a new range of measures to ensure that police and other agencies at the local level are better able to tackle ingrained antisocial behaviour. One problem in the past was that the things available to them worked too slowly and were ineffective. That is what we intend to remedy.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
The Lucy Faithfull Foundation and Surrey police have successfully trialled software that monitors internet use by registered sex offenders, and the Home Secretary has indicated that she wants to take steps to close the loopholes in the monitoring of registered sex offenders. Therefore, why was there not one single word about the internet in her consultation on the monitoring of sex offenders when it was launched two weeks ago?
Mrs May
We retain an interest in the whole question of the internet. The consultation that we launched was about a number of proposals that we will put in place in reaction to the Supreme Court judgment on the interpretation of the Human Rights Act 1998, and to the fact that sex offenders should now have the right of appeal as to whether they stay on the register. Alongside putting in the process for dealing with those appeals or a situation in which offenders ask for a review of their reference on the register, we will tighten the loophole by requiring them, for example, to notify the authorities when they are travelling abroad for more than 24 hours, and not the several days—