UK Armed Forces

Debate between James Cartlidge and Tobias Ellwood

Monday 11th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Cartlidge]

When the hon. Lady talks about procurement and delays, I would have thought she could at least recognise the support we have given to Ukraine, where we have procured an extraordinary amount of ordnance into the country to help Ukrainians to defend themselves. Much of that has been at great pace, not least from gifting, for example, our AS-90s, a whole range of munitions, and 300,000 artillery shells. Had it not been this country’s role, I think we can safely say that Russia would have been successful.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

Whether it be covid, the war in Ukraine or the middle east, it is clear that our world is becoming more dangerous, not less. Many of us in the House have been calling for increased defence spending and for a recognition of the symbiotic relationship between our economy and security. That has been illustrated by what has been going on in the Red sea. That is why we need to spend more, but how might we spend it? Will the Minister consider a defence review, because Ukraine continues to illustrate how the character of conflict is changing? On that note, will he agree that the biggest international security threat is Russia as it moves to a war footing? We have done well to slide across £12 billion of support, but unless more is done, the tide will turn in Ukraine and that will change the economy and security of the whole continent.

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend, as ever, makes some excellent points. He is right to mention how we spend the money. It is one thing to talk about GDP figures and spend, but what are our priorities? As Procurement Minister, and as I set out in my recent statement on the integrated procurement model, I want much greater use of data, particularly from the frontline in Ukraine, to inform our own defence industry so that we can bring forward at a much greater pace those technological innovations, whether in uncrewed systems or complex weapons, that will truly help strengthen our defence. As for a review, he will appreciate that is a matter for the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence, but he makes an excellent point.

Ukraine: Military Equipment

Debate between James Cartlidge and Tobias Ellwood

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Cartlidge]

The hon. Lady makes the good point that we should pay tribute to all the personnel involved in Operation Interflex. We have provided a huge amount of training. I went to Salisbury plain to meet the Irish Guards who were training Ukrainian civilians of all backgrounds, who would have but weeks of training before returning to a pretty attritional conflict. We all need to reflect on that. It is an incredible operation that has had international support from many other nations. The hon. Lady is right that we are in it for the long term, and we will keep training Ukrainians to defend their homeland.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

I have just returned from Ukraine. There was absolutely nothing but praise for what Britain has done in providing the munitions and equipment required, and in standing up to Putin when so many others blinked at that moment. It is clear that what is happening in Ukraine will move out further. Putin is now more powerful than Stalin and is trying to emulate what Stalin did in eastern Europe. Can we agree that Europe is at war? This affects our economy and our security. We have shown leadership up to now, so can we continue by allowing frozen assets, based in the UK, belonging to Russia, to be slid across the table to Ukraine?

[James Cartlidge]

As ever, my right hon. Friend makes some excellent points. I pay tribute to him and other colleagues who went to Ukraine to show that we stand 100% with Ukraine, and to show our solidarity as parliamentarians with them as a free democracy. He makes an excellent point on frozen Russian assets. The Prime Minister was clear that he wants to look at how we can do that and made the point that, obviously, we have to work internationally, particularly with the G7. Initially we will be looking at the interest earned on those assets, but we should definitely be focusing on this across Government.

Armoured Cavalry Programme: Sheldon Review

Debate between James Cartlidge and Tobias Ellwood

Thursday 15th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I would like to just take this opportunity to add my thoughts about Glenda Jackson, as I can see there are colleagues in the Chamber who were here in the House at the same time as her. She was a wonderful colleague and a great Minister, and I think we all want to send our condolences to her family. I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

May I immediately associate myself with your kind words about Glenda Jackson, Madam Deputy Speaker?

We now have in the Chamber not one, but three current or former procurement Ministers who bear the scars of this project. I am pleased that we are able to discuss the matter so openly and I commend the recent work that the MOD has done to get on top of the issue.

Ajax is now a case study that the MOD and DNS should use on how not to do procurement. This is all about the British Army’s recce vehicle. The current one being used, the Scimitar, was introduced in 1971. It is good to hear that the soldiers the Minister met said that the replacement is better than the last—that is brilliant, because it was built in 1971. Ajax’s journey has been miserable. It started in 2010 and the delivery date was 2017, yet it is not expected to enter service until 2030. Something very serious has gone wrong.

I absolutely welcome Clive Sheldon’s report. The Committee will look into that in more detail and, rather fortuitously, a Sub-Committee study on procurement, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), is currently under way. I am sure that he will have more words on how we will digest the report in more detail.

The Minister covered some of the issues. Concerns include the relationships between different entities within, or associated with, the MOD. The senior responsible officer has been criticised for not being a single point of contact or owning the actual project itself but having to have a number of projects going concurrently. Concerns got stuck because of people taking a rigid view of their remits. It is not just with Ajax that there is a problem; there is also with the land warfare capability. We have similar problems with the main battle tank and the armoured fighting vehicle. I hope that those problems will be addressed when the defence Command Paper comes out.

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Select Committee. Of course, we are absolutely committed to engaging with his Committee and, indeed, with the Sub-Committee, before which I will appear next week. I was born in 1974. He makes a striking point about the existing vehicle being from 1971—it is the same age as my elder brother. I take his point that one might therefore expect servicemen to say that it is night and day.

I put great store by meeting those on the frontline, and I will always continue to do that. It was a great privilege to go to Bovington. One of the soldiers I sat next to in the Ares version had been in a Challenger 2 when it was hit by an IED—I think it was in Iraq or Afghanistan; he did not say. He felt confidence in the protection. It is so important that we interact with the soldiers on the frontline. Ultimately, that is the point: we want to deliver a better acquisitions system for them and I look forward to working with my right hon. Friend’s Committee to that end.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend, who speaks with the expertise of a former Army officer and someone who serves on the Defence Committee, has hit the nail on the head in terms of the issue of optimism bias. [Interruption.] Did I say “former Minister”? I correct the record if I said that, but she is certainly on the Defence Committee.

[Mr Ellwood]

No, she was a Minister!

[James Cartlidge]

I apologise; she is a former Minister. She knows what she is talking about—that is for certain. She made an extremely important point about optimism bias. It may be that I was a bit pessimistic in my answer.

This is a serious point, because Mr Sheldon talks about optimism bias at length. Obviously, the new initial operating capability and full operating capability are much later than we wanted them to be, but I think what happened is that DE&S sat down with General Dynamics and said, “This time we’ve got to be realistic. Let’s have a programme we can actually deliver to.” I know it is disappointing, but that is the key thing; we want to actually get this equipment delivered.

My hon. Friend’s point about having psychological confidence to speak up is incredibly important, and she is a champion on that. We conduct the pan-Defence people survey, and the last iteration of the survey asked questions in relation to psychological confidence—are people confident in coming forward and challenging the system? In the last survey, the Army was eight percentage points above the civil service benchmark, so there is improvement happening in this space.