Judicial Review and Courts Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between James Cartlidge and Caroline Johnson

Thursday 18th November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[James Cartlidge]

Not least because we do not want to have to put a further burden on the coroner’s office should any question marks be raised about the circumstances—[Laughter.] Or, indeed, a further by-election. These are not simple matters—and all that notwithstanding the fact that my right hon. Friend is a great man, who is bordering on a regional treasure if not yet a national one. The only point that I make is that, in many ways, in craving inconvenience, he has made an ode to traffic jams. There are many inconvenient things in life that I think all of us find a great displeasure.

Let me make a serious point about efficiency. I said on Second Reading that the streamlining of the courts is the thread that runs through the Bill. Almost every measure in it is, in one way or another, streamlining, and therefore about efficiency, but it is not efficiency for efficiency’s sake. If we take the measures to do with coroners, I very much regret that many cases are backlogged in the coroners’ courts, and inevitably they are the most serious cases—cases that will require inquests, possibly with a jury. We have to remember that that causes great distress for the families concerned. These efficiency measures will help us to reduce those backlogs so that we can deliver those cases in a more timely fashion, which I would argue is in the interests of supporting bereaved families and is therefore in itself compassionate.

By the same token, as I have said repeatedly throughout our consideration of the Bill, when one talks about the virtual sphere, measures such as remote participation and digitisation are not taken for the sake of it. They enable justice to happen in ways that it might not have done during the pandemic, for example. I accept my right hon. Friend’s point, but we have to remember that there is a very important reason why we are seeking to streamline these measures, and ultimately it is in the interests of our constituents.

Of course, if one is seeking to streamline and have efficiency—I have said this throughout, and I have agreed with the hon. Member for Hammersmith—one has to have safeguards in place. The amendments in this group all seek to provide additional safeguards for audio and video-link provisions in clause 39.

To be clear, clause 39 is intended to provide coroners with the flexibility to hold remote inquest hearings where all participants, including members of a jury, where applicable, participate remotely. During the pandemic, remote elements of inquests have worked well, with interested persons and witnesses attending virtually, so this is not unprecedented by any means. Other courts and tribunals have been holding wholly or partly remote hearings where participants have the option to participate remotely. The clause is intended to bring coroners’ courts in line with other jurisdictions. I would like to assure members of the Committee that we introduced the clause with bereaved families in mind. Giving coroners flexibility on how they hold their inquest hearings will ensure the timely hearing of cases and help to reduce unnecessary distress to families, not least by reducing delay.

Amendment 74 proposes to set out in primary legislation the requirement that remote hearings must not be conducted by audio only. The clause is intended to provide coroners with the flexibility to hold remote inquest hearings with the use of either audio or video links. It is important that coroners have the flexibility to conduct hearings by audio, as there may be occasions where that is the only means by which participation is possible—for example, if someone’s wi-fi is not strong enough for a video link. We have all been there, on Teams or Zoom, where we have had to go audio-only because things start breaking up. It is a fall-back position that we have all made use of, and I would argue that it is sensible.

It is similar to the situation in other courts and tribunals where, for instance, parties to a civil case can join via audio-only. Indeed, many courts ask parties who will not be speaking, as well as counsel waiting to respond to submissions, to switch their cameras off so that the transmission is more stable. After all, we want to be accessible online throughout the country. Unfortunately, although their number reduces every day, there are still parts of the country that have less effective broadband access than others.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

rose—

[James Cartlidge]

I give way to my other Lincolnshire colleague.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the Minister for giving way. Could he clarify a point on the use of audio as opposed to audio and visual evidence? When one is listening to someone give evidence in court, surely their facial expressions and the way they present themselves are also part of one’s understanding of their evidence, their believability and the emotions behind what they are saying.

[James Cartlidge]

Although not a lawyer, my hon. Friend, given her medical background, understands very much how we deal with people day to day, but I would argue that one could say that of any remote participation.

Judicial Review and Courts Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between James Cartlidge and Caroline Johnson

Thursday 18th November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[James Cartlidge]

As ever, the hon. Gentleman makes a number of interesting points. Some of them go quite a bit wider than the clause before us, although he did enter the caveat that, given the importance of this clause, he was making some broader points, and I think that is fair. Taken together, these provisions are very important in terms of the coronial court. They do address matters relating to streamlining and ultimately, therefore, the backlog; and before I go into the specific points that he raised, some of which were very sensitive and very important, I want to talk about the backlog.

What the hon. Gentleman said was incredibly important. He specifically acknowledged that covid is responsible in large part—or however he wants to couch it—for the backlog in the coroners’ courts, and he is absolutely right. Let us be absolutely clear about this: social distancing has had a dramatic impact in the courts, particularly where juries are concerned. That is true in the Crown court. It is true in the coronial court. It is simple maths. The coroners’ buildings were not designed suddenly to have a rule about 2 metres, which was there, after all, for everyone’s public health benefit. The coroner’s house in Sunderland, for example, has capacity for, I believe, 54 persons in the courtroom. With social distancing, it had 11, so it does not take a great leap of imagination to work out how much harder it would have been to dispose of cases with a jury.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

In support of the Minister’s point, I can say that during my visit to a Crown court last week, there were five defendants who would normally be sat in the same dock in the courtroom, but because of social distancing, a separate courtroom and separate dock are having to be used just to hold the extra defendants, which means, of course, that that courtroom cannot be used for anything else.

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Was it Lincoln, by any chance?

[Dr Johnson]

The Old Bailey.

[James Cartlidge]

Ah! I asked because my hon. Friend is obviously a Lincolnshire MP. She is absolutely right. Since I got this job—I have been in post only a matter of weeks—I have visited Crown courts and magistrates courts around the country, and to someone who has not been to one recently, it is very striking to go to a Crown court and see the limitations caused by social distancing. We are trying to deal with those, but it has been a job of work to deal with them.

[Dr Johnson]

I just wonder whether my hon. Friend could update me on what work he is doing with the Department of Health and Social Care to alleviate some of these restrictions. Now that we sit next to one another in, for example, the House of Commons Chamber, is the social distancing measure still required?

[James Cartlidge]

There are some very good examples. There are one or two that we are working on at the moment, which I will go into more detail about at the appropriate moment. But the most important thing by far is that many existing courtrooms in the Crown court have come back into use as social distancing has reduced. For example, I was visiting Highbury magistrates, where the maximum number of people in the building had been lifted, because, for example, when people arrive to be allocated to cases—there are all kinds of reasons why we have lots of people in a court building—the capacity in itself becomes a significant constraint.

I appreciate that this provision is about coroners, but what I am describing is fundamental to the current debate. I could not care less, frankly, what people say on Twitter. They are all predetermined—there is not a single swing voter out there. But the Labour party has now strongly put forward a message, effectively, that the backlog in the Crown court is not because of covid but because of this Government. I find that wholly disingenuous. It is not only inaccurate—the hon. Member for Stockton North is shaking his head. It is not only inaccurate; it therefore conveys a false sense of the reality on the ground.

Let me give a statistical example. On 31 December 2009, the outstanding case load—what we have generally come to call the backlog, although there is always an outstanding case load—was 47,713. In December 2019, it was 38,291. Surprise, surprise: when courts were closed because of social distancing and jury trials suspended—although we restored them as quickly as possible—that figure shot up. It created a huge bottleneck. And we still have those problems. It really matters what we say on this, because people must understand the extent to which the pandemic has hit our ability to dispose of cases, because obviously it therefore dictates the solutions. On this side, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham said, that has meant, for example, trying to lift restrictions where we can, which I think is very important. Therefore I am grateful that, in the matter of coronial courts, the hon. Member for Hammersmith has put on the record his recognition of the impact of covid on the backlog.

Judicial Review and Courts Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between James Cartlidge and Caroline Johnson

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[James Cartlidge]

We come to a particularly important clause in the context of court recovery.

Clause 11 will help create a more flexible and unified court system by providing the Crown court with increased flexibility to return certain cases to the magistrates court. Currently, the Crown court can return cases to the magistrates court in a very limited set of circumstances. The clause will provide the Crown court with a new general power to return cases to the magistrates court, including to the youth court, for trial and sentencing, when the judge is satisfied that magistrates have the necessary jurisdiction.

A defendant’s right to elect for jury trial is unaffected by this measure. Before the Crown court can return a case back to the magistrates court for trial, it must first obtain the defendant’s consent to do so if the defendant is over 18.

Clause 11 also requires the Crown court to provide reasons whenever it decides not to send a child defendant under the age of 18 back to the youth court. The clause recognises that the nature and seriousness of criminal cases can change as they progress through the criminal justice system. It helps to create a more efficient criminal court system by ensuring that cases are always heard in the most appropriate venue.

On the important point of court recovery, we estimate that clause 11 will make room for a further 400 Crown court sitting days. Those days will be saved on the following assumptions: that 5% of not guilty triable either-way cases would be sent back for trial and 10% of guilty triable either-way cases would be sent back for sentencing. The 5% and 10% figures are of eligible cases—in other words, cases that received less than six months at Crown court; that is based on pre-covid 2019 data. I remind colleagues that 400 days saved in the Crown court are 400 days when we can hear murder cases, rape cases and cases in the backlog. That is why the clause is incredibly important.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I was fortunate enough to witness a case at the Old Bailey last week, and to see how the process operates. There are people waiting quite a long time on remand to have their cases processed. Can my hon. Friend confirm that the terms of the clause will also reduce the amount of time that people spend on remand, waiting for their trial?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We should be cognisant of those on remand—whether in custody or on bail, but particularly those in custody. She makes exactly the right point: by definition, if we free up space in the Crown court through the clause, we are enabling more cases to be heard more quickly.

It is important to stress that those cases would go back to the magistrates court. We can do that because the “backlog” in the magistrates court is now far better; we have seen a huge reduction in the outstanding case volume because it has faster throughput. All of us would pay tribute to our voluntary judiciary. I was pleased yesterday to hold a meeting with MPs invited from all parties who are currently magistrates or have been magistrates. A number of hon. Friends were there and we had a very interesting discussion. I have great faith in the ability of the magistrates courts to take more cases and to assist the Crown court, which has the serious matter of indictable cases.

Without further ado, I should say that this is an important clause, which forms an important and significant part of court recovery.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 12

Powers of youth court to transfer cases if accused turns 18

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Judicial Review and Courts Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between James Cartlidge and Caroline Johnson

Committee stage
Tuesday 9th November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[James Cartlidge]

I am talking about 2010. The hon. Gentleman knows full well that there is no parallel universe in which difficult decisions did not have to be made. Had Labour stayed in power in 2010, they would have made significant cuts to the Ministry of Justice. That is a fact, but we are here today and looking to the future, and the future is digital. Digitalisation offers many ways to improve and streamline justice, but of course we must ensure that safeguards are in place. I will come to a few of the specific questions, and then to the amendment.

Probably the most important question is what happens if the defendant does not receive notification of the charge or conviction. How will they respond? What do we do? We may be confusing two procedures. There is the single justice procedure, and there is the new procedure—I simply call it the automatic procedure. The hon. Gentleman is right: even the acronym is impossible to remember, let alone the full name. In the SJP, it is worth stressing that defendants who have no knowledge of proceedings brought against them via summons or requisition until after a magistrates court has begun to try the case will be able to make a statutory declaration to restart the proceedings—that is, for example, if the correspondence was sent to the wrong address. To reassure all colleagues, in the automatic procedure, the person considered has to opt in. If they do not receive notification, that procedure will not be used. It is fairly straightforward, and an important safeguard.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Can my hon. Friend confirm what would happen if somebody did not receive the post, the case went to court, and they were convicted in their absence? Could that happen, or would they have to be informed?

[James Cartlidge]

That is a very good question. To be clear, they have to opt in. If they received it and did not respond, they would not have been able to opt in. Therefore, the online procedure would not have taken place. I understand why my hon. Friend asks that question.

The previous Government consulted on this proposal from September to November 2016. The Government’s response in February 2017 to their consultation on transforming our justice system set out their intention to proceed with the new automatic online conviction and standard statutory penalty procedure, otherwise known as an acronym that I will not attempt, interesting as it is.

Open justice is a very important question. The hon. Member for Stockton North, as a former journalist, will very much respect the fact that matters of justice are of intense interest to the media and to journalists, and he is right that it is important in our democracy that we give them that access. We have to ask how much interest there would be in someone who has not paid a fine on an unlicensed fishing rod and so on, but to be clear, case information, including details of cases to be considered and outcomes, will be made available to the media and other interested parties in line with the criminal procedure rules.

The common platform is a very important question. There is possibly a slight confusion, which I can understand, as it is complex and there are lots of different clauses and procedures. Strictly speaking, in using the automatic procedure, the defendant is not using the common platform. It is a separate public-facing interface.

The common platform is used by practitioners and the criminal justice system. Clauses 6 and 8 relate to the common platform, because in those cases, the person would have to have legal representation because they could not enter, for example, an early plea online because it has to be done through the common platform and that has to be done through a practitioner. To be clear, there is a difference.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

To be clear, I am not talking about a day off work. If they go into court, the issue is not having the income—for example, if someone is self-employed. It may be less of an issue for someone who is permanently employed; it depends on their contract. I think it is important for people to have the option, particularly if they are time poor. I stress that it is a choice.

[Dr Johnson]

What information will be provided in the letters when they are sent out, so that people can make the right choice? If the hypothetical plumber chooses to pay a fine, which may be less than the money that he would lose from missing a day’s work, he may think that he is financially better off because he is not going to court. Assuming that he is innocent, however, how will he get information about the consequences of the record? Will that be provided in the letters?

[James Cartlidge]

The answer is very simple. If the person concerned is innocent and pleads not guilty, the case is heard in court. This procedure is for people who are guilty and wish to plead guilty online to save themselves the hassle of going to court, given that they are guilty.

Judicial Review and Courts Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between James Cartlidge and Caroline Johnson

Committee stage
Tuesday 9th November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[James Cartlidge]

Under our current system, if a case is brought unsuccessfully to any chamber of the first-tier tribunal, it is possible to apply to the first tier for permission to appeal to the upper tribunal. If that permission application is refused, an application can be made to the upper tribunal for permission to have the case heard in the upper tribunal. If that fails, an application can be made to the High Court to judicially review the decision by the upper tribunal to refuse permission to appeal. This was the state of affairs brought about by the Cart judgment.

Since the Cart judgment, there have been on average 750 such cases a year. We do not believe that was the intention when the Supreme Court decided Cart. Therefore, clause 2 seeks to remove Cart judicial reviews, by way of a narrow and carefully worded ouster clause.

The Government want to remove Cart reviews because we firmly believe that the situation is a disproportionate use of resources in our justice system. Users of the tribunal system not only have the chance to seek administrative review—for example, if challenging a Home Office decision—but can appeal that decision to the first-tier tribunal and, upon losing that appeal, have both the first-tier and upper tribunals consider whether it is necessary to appeal that decision. To then be able to judicially review a refusal by the upper tribunal is an unnecessary burden on the system. That is not enjoyed in most other areas of law. We are yet to hear from the Labour party why it thinks that immigration cases should have such an exceptional additional right.

Our view is shared by some in the Supreme Court. Lord Hope of Craighead, who was one of the judges in the original Cart JR ruling, has stated that

“experience has shown that our decision has not worked”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 March 2021; Vol. 811, c. 710.]

He agreed that it is time to end this type of review because of its inefficiencies.

The independent review of administrative law, from which the proposal of this clause comes, concluded that Cart reviews were effective for claimants only 0.22% of the time. That figure was the subject of much criticism, with several critics questioning the independent review’s analysis. Officials have worked with academics, judges, practitioners and non-governmental organisations to come to a more definite figure, and concluded that the claimant success rate for judicial reviews in this area is around 3.4%. It is a higher figure, but still incredibly low. Lord Brown’s words in the Cart judgment are relevant. He said that

“the rule of law is weakened, not strengthened, if a disproportionate part of the courts’ resources is devoted to finding a very occasional grain of wheat on a threshing floor full of chaff.”

We can consider that rate against the claimant success rate for general judicial reviews, for which the independent review found that the general consensus is that it ranges from 30% to 50%. Colleagues will recall Professor Feldman suggesting in evidence that the figure is around 50%. Either way, it is well over 10 times more than the figure for Cart JRs.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Does the Minister think it is a little strange that while Opposition Members argue for those immigration cases to maintain having three bites at the cherry, they do not make the same argument for other cases with potentially higher success rate?

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who speaks with great expertise, for making that incredibly important point. Given her medical professional background, she is aware of the importance of the law in good public administration and why the proportionate use of resource is incredibly important. She is absolutely right: we and our constituents have still not heard an explanation as to why, uniquely, immigration cases should have this special right. I am bound to point out that the longer an immigration case is in our courts, the claimant could argue that they have a stronger case to be given a permanent right to remain on human rights grounds.

Judicial Review and Courts Bill (First sitting)

Debate between James Cartlidge and Caroline Johnson

Committee stage
Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[James Cartlidge]

Q Thank you very much, that is a fair point. On the matter of resource, it clearly is a political point. It is, after all, the most fundamental role of Parliament historically. You will be aware that we referred to the 2004 Bill—I think it was introduced in 2003—and you have made the point that it is effectively long-running governmental aim, regardless of party to address this. I think I am right that in when the Immigration and Asylum (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Bill was in Committee, the then Minister, the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), said that at that time it was something like 3.6%, so it seemed to be viewed then by a Government of a different colour, on the proportionality issue, disproportionate.

I had the great privilege of attending the Lord Chancellor’s swearing in. One of the things he swears is that he will ensure that resources are provided to the judiciary. This is not just about public money per se; it is about time, which is incredibly precious. Arguably, there is a context which goes back some years which seems to recognise on both sides that this is disproportionate in resource terms.

Dr Morgan: I agree. This does not seem to be a partisan point. It is about how best to deploy the resources of the judiciary. I hope the judges have been consulted on this reform, but retired judges who speak on it in the House of Lords seem to be sympathetic to the objectives.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Dr Morgan, you talked about people in these situations being very vulnerable. Obviously, it is important that we get as many of these decisions correct as possible. Why are the very few appeals that are successful, successful? Are there other ways in which we could reduce the number of people who may have had an erroneous decision? In particular, where there has been a win in the Cart judicial review, is it due to legal technicalities of process and, if so, how much difference would that have had on the actual decision of the upper tribunal if they had followed the process? Would the person have had the same outcome?

Dr Morgan: The answer might be to a slightly different question. I refer the Committee back to some things that were said in Cart itself. Both Baroness Hale and Lord Phillips, two Presidents of the Supreme Court at different times, said the reason why there are so many immigration and asylum challenges is because people are desperate. Lady Hale said:

“There is every incentive to make the road as long as possible, to take every possible point, and make every possible application.”

She went on to say she did not blame people, because people are desperate, and we can hardly blame them for doing this, but she said that that was why there was such a problem. It does create a resource problem for the courts, because in the immigration and asylum system there is bound to be a huge number of applications, even if most of them are doomed to fail. In fact, Lord Phillips seemed to recognise that Cart was sowing the seeds of a great problem. He said:

“The stringency of the criteria that must be demonstrated will not discourage a host of applications in the field”.

He was the judge who came closest to saying we should not have had Cart judicial reviews, as they are now known, at all.

That is one reason why this creates such a problem: people will try every avenue to challenge a decision, even in a fairly hopeless case, for reasons that we can all appreciate. That is why I think an even more stringent approach than Cart is perhaps needed to close down the avenue, if that is what you want to do.

Judicial Review and Courts Bill (First sitting)

Debate between James Cartlidge and Caroline Johnson

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Public Bill Committees

James Cartlidge

-

Q Thank you very much, that is a fair point. On the matter of resource, it clearly is a political point. It is, after all, the most fundamental role of Parliament historically. You will be aware that we referred to the 2004 Bill—I think it was introduced in 2003—and you have made the point that it is effectively long-running governmental aim, regardless of party to address this. I think I am right that in when the Immigration and Asylum (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Bill was in Committee, the then Minister, the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), said that at that time it was something like 3.6%, so it seemed to be viewed then by a Government of a different colour, on the proportionality issue, disproportionate.

I had the great privilege of attending the Lord Chancellor’s swearing in. One of the things he swears is that he will ensure that resources are provided to the judiciary. This is not just about public money per se; it is about time, which is incredibly precious. Arguably, there is a context which goes back some years which seems to recognise on both sides that this is disproportionate in resource terms.

Dr Morgan: I agree. This does not seem to be a partisan point. It is about how best to deploy the resources of the judiciary. I hope the judges have been consulted on this reform, but retired judges who speak on it in the House of Lords seem to be sympathetic to the objectives.

Dr Johnson

- - Excerpts

Q Dr Morgan, you talked about people in these situations being very vulnerable. Obviously, it is important that we get as many of these decisions correct as possible. Why are the very few appeals that are successful, successful? Are there other ways in which we could reduce the number of people who may have had an erroneous decision? In particular, where there has been a win in the Cart judicial review, is it due to legal technicalities of process and, if so, how much difference would that have had on the actual decision of the upper tribunal if they had followed the process? Would the person have had the same outcome?

Dr Morgan: The answer might be to a slightly different question. I refer the Committee back to some things that were said in Cart itself. Both Baroness Hale and Lord Phillips, two Presidents of the Supreme Court at different times, said the reason why there are so many immigration and asylum challenges is because people are desperate. Lady Hale said:

“There is every incentive to make the road as long as possible, to take every possible point, and make every possible application.”

She went on to say she did not blame people, because people are desperate, and we can hardly blame them for doing this, but she said that that was why there was such a problem. It does create a resource problem for the courts, because in the immigration and asylum system there is bound to be a huge number of applications, even if most of them are doomed to fail. In fact, Lord Phillips seemed to recognise that Cart was sowing the seeds of a great problem. He said:

“The stringency of the criteria that must be demonstrated will not discourage a host of applications in the field”.

He was the judge who came closest to saying we should not have had Cart judicial reviews, as they are now known, at all.

That is one reason why this creates such a problem: people will try every avenue to challenge a decision, even in a fairly hopeless case, for reasons that we can all appreciate. That is why I think an even more stringent approach than Cart is perhaps needed to close down the avenue, if that is what you want to do.