Procedure of the House

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Thursday 26th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

If the hon. Gentleman’s complaint is that there is inadequate time for right hon. and hon. Members to be called in this debate, let me say, with a clarity that is beyond peradventure, that I would be happy to sit here all day and all night for right hon. and hon. Members. The hon. Gentleman is a constitutionalist, and I think that he prides himself on understanding Parliament. The motion was tabled by the Government, and the time for it was determined by the Government. I think that that is clear.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As there is such widespread demand for an increase in the time available, would it be permissible to suggest, under Standing Order 24, an emergency debate on the subject?

[Mr Speaker]

The answer to that, I fear—as far as the hon. Gentleman is concerned—is that the Government tabled the motion earlier in the week, which removed any possibility of Standing Order 24 debates today. The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s point of order is that there cannot be such a debate, but that is the reason. It has nothing to do with a decision by the Chair; it has to do with a judgment that the Government have made.

I must now put the Question.

Today’s Business of the House

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Thursday 26th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I have already explained why there was a change in the business. However, the right hon. Gentleman is quite right to say that it is very important that people should have confidence that any future election, in this House or elsewhere, is fair. I have no doubt that when we come to the debate, that will be the case that Members wish to make in favour of a secret ballot in the particular election that we are discussing.

We would not ask voters to go to the polls on 7 May in anything other than a secret ballot, and there are long-established historical reasons for that. There has to be an opportunity for Members to put the case for a secret ballot in elections in this House.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is one of the most revered and admired figures within the Conservative party. He is a figure who has made his reputation by being a great parliamentarian. Throughout the years when he was leader, we were all cheered by his success at the Dispatch Box against Mr Blair. Does he therefore appreciate the deep sadness that many of us feel that his career should end with his name being put to a bit of parliamentary jiggery-pokery that has come about, representing grudges that some people have against Mr Speaker, and that this is deeply unfortunate?

[Mr Hague]

I obviously disagree with the idea that it has come about from any grudges. Hon. Members on both sides of this House have asked for this debate to be held, and they are entitled to have a debate held. It is part of the job of the Leader of the House to do what is in the best interests of the House. I believe that the House resolving these issues before the end of the Parliament is in the interests of the House of Commons.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hague]

Hon. Members have clearly had the thesaurus out this morning to find as many adjectives as possible, but I personally think that it is very important that this issue is decided.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. What the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) has just said about the Prime Minister—calling him “vindictive” etc.—cannot be within the bounds of parliamentary discourse. I really object most strongly. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I just respond to the hon. Gentleman as follows? My strong sense, and I do take advice on these matters, is that what has been said is a matter of taste—[Interruption.] Order. If I felt the need of the advice of the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley),I would seek it, but I am seeking to respond to the point of order. It is a matter of taste; it is not language that I would use, and it is certainly not language that the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) would use. I have responded to him, and I think that we should leave it there.

Members’ Paid Directorships and Consultancies

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The answer is very straightforward, and it is twofold: first, of course individual Members must take responsibility for what they say in this House when they rise to their feet; and secondly, very simply, the interest in question has to be sufficiently clear to be informative to the House in the context of the debate. It is a very straightforward point and I have now made it twice. I hope that it is clear to all right hon. and hon. Members.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. It might be helpful to ask you about my understanding that it is not customary to explain points of one’s interests in interventions or supplementary questions; that is normally reserved for main speeches, the idea being that it advances the debate.

[Mr Speaker]

The short answer is that the declaration should be made where it does not impede the progress of debate, and it should certainly not impair the decorum of the debate. [Interruption.] Order. Members can study the matter, which is treated of in some detail in “Erskine May”. The House would be the first to complain, and rightly so, if I were to read out what is in “Erskine May”. I do not do that. I do not need to do that. Members should apprise themselves of what is said in “Erskine May” on the matter and judge their actions accordingly, which I know the hon. Gentleman, in particular, is extremely adept at doing. I suggest that others could usefully follow his example.

House of Commons Commission Bill

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I begin by offering the apologies of my hon. Friend the shadow Leader of the House, who is out of the country today. The task of representing Her Majesty’s Opposition therefore falls to me this afternoon.

As the Leader of the House said, we support the Bill. We thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and his Committee for the work they put in and the speed with which they produced their report, which has allowed us to make these straightforward alterations ahead of schedule.

For those who are not familiar with Commons procedures, it is worth touching on the role of the Commission. The Commission is not like a Select Committee: it does not have the powers of a Select Committee or perform a scrutiny function; it does not summon witnesses or produce reports. That role is performed by the Finance and Services Committee—to become the Finance Committee—and the Administration Committee. The Commission is a governance body. Clause 2 states:

“The Commission must from time to time set strategic priorities and objectives in connection with services provided by the House Departments.”

As the House of Commons Governance Committee highlighted, one of the defects in recent years has been that the Commission did not necessarily understand its own role, and it certainly was not understood by the wider membership of the House and beyond, so we welcome not only the changes being made but the new provision which, for the first time, I think, sets out explicitly the role of the Commission to make strategic choices.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

While the hon. Gentleman is talking about the responsibilities of the Commission and how it will work, may I ask whether it is still envisaged that the commissioners will be elected, and if so, will that be by the whole House or by the individual parties?

[Thomas Docherty]

I will come on to that shortly.

One of the major challenges facing Parliament when we—or perhaps our successors—return in May is the need in the next Parliament to make a decision on restoration and renewal. I pay tribute to the right hon. Members for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) and for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for their work on tackling the early stages of thinking on restoration and renewal. Restoration and renewal is not optional. We will have to spend money—taxpayers’ money—and Parliament must take huge decisions on the appropriate timetable for carrying out those works and how to ensure best value for taxpayers. The Commission will have a crucial role in providing leadership, so it is absolutely right that we ensure that it accurately reflects the views of the House. It is also important that the Commission has external members who will be able to provide strategic advice. It is no criticism of Members of this House, but not all of us have business experience or are used to grappling with some of the issues that the Commission will have to deal with.

The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) will understand that it is not for me to speak for other parties and their internal processes. He is probably slightly more familiar than I with how the Conservative parliamentary party operates. It is clear that two of the members will be the Chairs of the Administration and Finance Committees, so that is a matter for post-election arrangements. The question was asked during the debate on the Governance Committee’s report, so let me say clearly that the Opposition do not believe that the commissioners who are not Select Committee Chairs should be paid an additional sum to carry out this work, in part because we do not believe it is appropriate in the current climate and our constituents would not regard it as sensible, and in part because serving on the Commission should not be more onerous than being a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the European Scrutiny Committee or, indeed, the Finance and Administration Committees. What is important is getting people who come forward and are selected by their party because they have a particular interest or knowledge.

We welcome the progress made on the appointment of a Director General. The Leader of the House is right to say that it is necessary to complete that process after the election, but we do not see that as a significant obstacle to the Bill’s progress.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Ind)]

I begin by expressing my gratitude to the Leader of the House for the way in which from the establishment of the Committee he embraced its work. Inevitably, when a Select Committee dominated by Back Benchers comes forward with reforming recommendations, there is an inbuilt tendency—there certainly was when I was sitting in his place—to think, “This hasn’t been invented here. We ought to look at all these proposals with great scepticism and no doubt we can improve them.” In one area the right hon. Gentleman and our Front-Bench did indeed propose improvements in respect of the recommendations in the report. He, together with my hon. Friend the shadow Deputy Leader of the House, simply said that this was an agreed all-party report which appeared to make sense, and that he therefore committed himself, along with my hon. Friend, to implement it.

There is an irony about the way in which things come up in this place. The provenance of the Committee was—I put it delicately—a difference of emphasis regarding the future official leadership of the House, which was dominating the news at the time. Out of that came the House of Commons Governance Committee, and I am extremely grateful to the House for deciding that I should chair it. I was extraordinarily fortunate in having on the Committee seven other Members drawn from a range of parties who showed astonishing dedication and commitment to working, in some cases, three days out of the four that we have here each week, from mid-October through to December in order to achieve the outcome. Well, we got there, and I think it was to everybody’s advantage that we had the report out before Christmas, rather than afterwards.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to say that we got there thanks to his amazing chairmanship. It was amazing to see so sophisticated and capable an operator steer us through, when we had a lot of differences of emphasis on the Committee at the beginning. I hope he does not mind my interrupting him to put that on the record.

[Mr Straw]

Not at all—least of all today.

Those of us who are now Hegel and Marx—at least a bit, in my case; I hope I do not offend the hon. Gentleman—can genuinely say that a dialectical process took place in the Committee, where there was thesis, antithesis and synthesis from a variety of sources. I was talking to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), who was energetic in the Committee and was not going to let anything go, but out of that energy—sometimes it felt as though I had a terrier locked on my ankle!—we got a better report.

One of the things that emerged during our inquiry was the opacity of the current arrangements for running this place—the lack of connection between the Commission and everything else underneath. One key Committee, the Administration Committee, chaired by the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), was in some kind of limbo. It did not have executive powers, although everybody thought it had. It had to negotiate with others. It had a membership that was put there principally by the Whips. In my view, had it not been for the fact that the right hon. Gentleman and two or three others almost exclusively had sat through the Committee over the past five years, it could not have operated at all. That was one indication of the opacity and less than optimal way in which these arrangements operated.

There were other such indications—for instance, the fact that the non-executive members who give advice to the administration of the House were on the Management Board, not on the Commission, which is a slightly eccentric way of doing these things. We had very good evidence, including from the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), who represents a large chunk of Scotland. I may say parenthetically that he and I were having a conversation about the difficulty of getting to his constituency. As we know, he is Viscount—these days, Mr—Thurso. He was talking about the fact that he would get an aeroplane to Inverness and then would drive. I asked what would happen if he were to go by train. He said, “Well, I would get a sleeper to Inverness and then another train.” I asked, in my naiveté, “Which station?”, to which the right hon. Gentleman replied, “Thurso, of course.” It must be reassuring to have a station named after you.

To return to the Bill, the right hon. Member for that large chunk of Scotland has chaired the Finance Committee. He has also been a member of the Commission. That was a very good exemplar for us to build on.

There are many recommendations of the Committee that do not need legislation; these recommendations do, and I believe strongly that with these changes we will have an administration for future Parliaments that is better and more effective than it is at present.

On the question whether the four Back-Bench commissioners should be paid, Members must consider that in the next Parliament, and do so rapidly. I am clear that if at least two of those Members have executive responsibilities for chairing important Committees, they must receive the same kind of emoluments as any other Chairman; otherwise, given the amount of time that will have to be devoted to these positions and the fact that they will be much more public, as it were, within the firmament of the Commons, people of serious calibre will not be attracted to undertake them. We do not want these positions and the other two on the Commission for Back Benchers to be seen as some sort of consolation prize for those who have failed to be elected to the chairmanship of some apparently prestigious subject Select Committee. That is extremely important, and I hope the Whips will bear that in mind, not least when they come to the timetabling.

--- Later in debate ---

[Thomas Docherty]

With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will respond briefly to two points made by the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso). I may have picked him up incorrectly. The Opposition do not think that the Commission members who are not Chairs of Select Committees should be elected by the whole House. It is a matter for the parties to elect them. If I can extend the principle of Select Committees, members of Select Committees are not elected by the whole House; they are elected by their parties. Their role on the Commission will be to represent, as the Leader of the House has already said, the views of those parties. As Members of Parliament, it would not be democratic for Labour Members to have a say on who represents the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrats or the minority parties. Therefore, for the avoidance of doubt, the parliamentary Labour party position is that it would be for those individual parties.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that the finance commissioner, for example, should be elected by the whole House, even if he is not saying that the commissioners without portfolio should be elected by the whole House?

[Thomas Docherty]

That is something that we will look at. My position is that the current arrangements for the Select Committee Chairs have worked well in this Parliament and they should continue in the next Parliament.

It is critical that there is no ambiguity about the position of the parliamentary Labour party. We do not believe that the other commissioners should be paid, because the work is no more onerous than being a member of the Finance and Services Committee or the Administration Committee or the Foreign Affairs Committee, and they do not receive payment. My understanding is that the Commission meets once a month and it would be slightly strange if the only member of the Commission who was not receiving an additional payment ended up being the shadow Leader of the House, because the shadow Cabinet are not paid. The Commission itself does not have an onerous meeting schedule—

Business of the House

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Thursday 5th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

As ever, we have enjoyed the hon. Lady’s questions. In fact, I was having a look, as so many people are, at the betting odds for who will be the next leader of the Labour party. I must congratulate her, because it turns out that she has now entered the list at Ladbrokes at 100:1. Admittedly, that is only a start—the same level as Ken Livingstone and Lord Mandelson—but I might fancy a flutter on the prospect, because we know that we can laugh with her, whereas there are one or two of her colleagues whom we can only laugh at. I wish her well in moving up the odds.

The hon. Lady asked about the House of Commons Commission Bill, which has indeed been published today. It is certainly my intention to have it on the statute book by Dissolution. It has a great deal of cross-party support, so I hope that we can arrange Second Reading and other stages soon after the February recess.

There are several more Opposition days to come in this Parliament. We make a genuine effort to avoid having many statements on Opposition days. I think the House understands that yesterday’s statements from the Home Secretary and the Communities and Local Government Secretary were highly important, and indeed that it was urgent that they came to the House as soon as the report on Rotherham was available. Occasionally that happens on Opposition days, and it is unavoidable, but that does not mean we can create additional Opposition days; it means we try to avoid it on other occasions.

Like the hon. Lady, I enjoyed the BBC’s documentary “Inside the Commons”. My comprehensive school did not look anything like this place either, and I would have known that three halves add up to more than one. On the other hand, forgetting that three halves add up to more than one is a bit better than forgetting the entire Budget deficit, which was the performance of the Leader of the Opposition.

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady about the importance of LGBT rights. Indeed, the Education Secretary has just announced a £2 million fund to help tackle homophobic bullying in schools. There is a good case for a debate on these issues, although it is most likely to be successful as a Back-Bench business debate. I would certainly support such a debate taking place.

The hon. Lady asked about public services. It is a common mistake for the Opposition to think of public services in terms of inputs, rather than outputs and what is actually achieved. For instance, over nearly five years we have seen crime fall by a fifth, we have seen a huge increase in the number of children in schools rated good or outstanding, and we have seen satisfaction with the health service increase—except in Wales, where it has gone down. That is what matters to people: the actual performance and achievements of public services.

I hope that in the debates that the Opposition have called for next week we will be able to look at the recent economic good news, because just in the past week we have seen construction output growth rebound, manufacturing growth accelerate, and consumer confidence make a large jump, and the car sales figures announced this morning are up 7% on the year. The real jobs guarantee—they have a debate next week on a jobs guarantee—is that sort of success, as is the growth of 1.75 million jobs in this country over the past four and a half years. At least in that debate the Opposition will be able to tell us what advice they have received on jobs from Bill Somebody and their business supporters, or Fred Somebody, or Joe Somebody—or just somebody. It is not an age thing on the part of the shadow Chancellor that he could not remember the names of any business supporters; it is a being totally out of touch with job and business creation thing.

Even by Labour Members’ own chaotic standards, they have had a special week, with university vice-chancellors attacking their fees policy, saying that it would

“damage the economy…and set back work on widening access”;

with business people who were Ministers in the previous Government attacking their attitude to business and wealth creation; and with their own peer, Lord Glasman, saying they need bold leadership but have got the Leader of the Opposition. Nothing could better demonstrate the real choice between competence on this side of the House and chaos on the other.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I apologise for boring the Leader of the House on this subject, but I must bring him back to the debate requested by the European Scrutiny Committee one year and two weeks ago on the free movement of EU citizens. In answering my previous questions, my right hon. Friend has been immeasurably emollient and tactful, but nothing happens. It is a grave discourtesy to this House that the Government do not follow the proper scrutiny procedures. It is about time we had this debate, and it is a considerable disappointment that it was not in his announcement.

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend is never boring. [Hon. Members: “Oh yes he is!”] Well, only occasionally then, in the view of the House. In my view, he is never boring. I always try to be emollient and tactful. Indeed, I am going to the European Scrutiny Committee to discuss some of these things next week. I certainly intend that some of the debates that the European Scrutiny Committee is waiting for will take place on the Floor of the House or in Committee in the coming weeks.

House of Commons Governance

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I begin with an apology, as I may have to leave early to attend the repeat of the Simon de Montfort Parliament in the chapter house of Westminster Abbey.

I join other members of the Committee in thanking the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who was an absolutely brilliant Chairman and incredibly smooth in getting us to agree when there were bits of disagreement and in bringing people together. As a Member who was elected only in 2010, I was interested to watch someone who is an expert in his craft. He operated the Committee incredibly well.

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), who was a terrific member of the Committee. Although I will not mention every member of the Committee, I hope that she will take it as a compliment when I say that she was very much the grit that allowed the oyster to produce a pearl. While our Chairman was doing his silky stuff, for which other members of the Committee might have fallen slightly more easily, the hon. Lady ensured that we were kept up to the mark and that things were rigorously questioned and not just accepted. Her membership was crucial to our unanimously agreed report.

The report was important because we were tackling complex issues. The fundamental purpose of this place is to be a legislature, but we must be run in as efficient a way as possible. We have a duty to the public purse; we should not spend money carelessly. We have to ensure that we are run efficiently so that members of the public can come here. It is a very important constitutional right that our constituents can turn up in Central Lobby on any day of the week when the House is sitting and demand to see their Member of Parliament, to ask their MP to behave in a particular way. That means that the general operation needs to be smooth running in admitting people and providing some element of hospitality.

We also have to get legislation through, which I sometimes regret, saying that an awful lot of legislation is bad and it would not necessarily be a bad thing if we were a little less efficient. On the other hand, the Government need to be able to get their business through the House, and they need the authority and expertise that is brought to them by the Clerks.

I hold the Clerks in the highest regard. They were referred to in some of the evidence that we received as a “priestly caste”, and I rather like that view of them. As a Catholic, I have always been taught that one should not criticise or question priests unduly, because they have that high authority. Oddly, in the priestly class of Clerk, that is important. There are 650 Members of Parliament, all of whom, individually and jointly, think that they know best. They think that, having read one page of “Erskine May”—which is about what I have done—they have suddenly become experts on every aspect of procedure, and are willing to challenge Clerks with 40 years’ experience.

Those bewigged figures have an authority through their learning, their length of service and, indeed, their appearance—an authority that is accepted by Members, and that allows the business of the House to progress—and anything that we did in our report had to preserve that. However, we had also observed that some aspects of the House were not running as efficiently and as smoothly as might have been hoped, partly because of the absurd burden that was placed on someone who was performing the job of both Clerk and chief executive.

I happen to dislike the title “chief executive”. I think it is part of a title inflation that has affected every organisation. Even in a two-man band, one of the two has to be the chief executive. It has become part of a culture of flattery, and of raising things that do not necessarily need to be raised, which I find broadly disagreeable. None the less, the title had been introduced, and it meant that one person was expected to do absolutely everything. For instance, people would contact him if they were upset about the gymnasium. I must confess that nothing has ever worried me about any gymnasium at all. I never go near such places. I think that raising one’s hand to hail a taxi is quite enough exercise for any individual day.

[Valerie Vaz]

You should walk.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

That sounds far too energetic, but never mind.

The fact that a chief executive was being bombarded with petty requests meant, inevitably, that the job was becoming unmanageable. The number of people who were coming in, and the growth in the business that was going on, meant that the role needed to be divided. However, as we observed while the Committee was sitting, there are occasions when matters that we think are completely routine and entirely administrative suddenly become constitutional.

I was a member of a private Member’s Bill Committee. When I turned up, I found that the Committee Room had been hired out for—I don’t know—a tiddlywinks contest; certainly not for any parliamentary activity. Although everyone knows that the business of legislative Committees takes priority over any other business that is going on in a Committee Room—which is quite right—dealing with that is a clerkly role, not an administrative role. The more one thought about it, the clearer it became that it was impossible for the head administrator to be above the head constitutional person, but also that the head administrator needed to have enormous authority and clout in order to get things done.

One of our fascinating discoveries—this happened when I was talking to members of staff with the hon. Member for Walsall South—was that no one actually knows how anything is decided in this illustrious place. I had a great conversation with a gentleman from Portcullis House, which, as some of us know, is that remote office space that takes us away from the Chamber, about a room booking. He said that one person had told him that drink could be served but not food, another person had told him that neither could be served, and the Speaker had said that both were allowed. I said to him “Well, who did you follow?” You will be glad to know, Mr Speaker, that he quite rightly replied “Mr Speaker, of course.” For all the governance that may be put into this place, there are authorities which are not necessarily written down, but which carry—rightly, in my view—a great deal of weight, and the director general needs to be in that position.

The right hon. Member for Blackburn mentioned that we had bandied about titles when we were discussing what the director general ought to have been called. I had various favourites. I went through the list of titles in the Royal Household from which I thought we might be able to learn. We briefly considered “comptroller”, with a “p”, but that was rejected, eventually and somewhat reluctantly, after I had a discussion—with the leave of the Committee—with a journalist, the great Brendan Carlin of The Mail on Sunday. [Interruption.] I believe that it is traditional not to recognise the Galleries, but never mind.

I asked Brendan Carlin whether we would be teased if we used the title “comptroller”. He immediately said to me “fat”, and I am afraid that the image of Thomas the Tank Engine diverted us from “comptroller”. My other favourite was “grand bailiff”, but I regret to say that “grand bailiff” got no takers. So director general became the title: a title that carries implicit authority, power and prestige, but does not confuse the operation of a Parliament with an intrusion of the private sector that is entirely unnecessary.

This place cannot have a chief executive. When the chief executive of BP—and goodness, Lord Browne’s evidence was impressive—says “Go”, his minions “goeth”. When the chief executive of the House of Commons says to a Member of Parliament “Go”, the Member of Parliament—however new, however humble, however diffident—says “Why?” If 650 employers, effectively, are not willing to be told to go, a very different role is needed: a role that requires more tact and subtlety and understanding. The private sector comparisons were therefore not the correct ones. I think that we have got this big task absolutely right. We have made the role manageable, but we have maintained the primacy of Parliament and the primacy of the legislative process.

As for the other aspects with which we have dealt, it is not, I suppose, that unusual for a mini-crisis to lead to a process that uncovers matters that can be significantly improved. The administration of the House of Commons, although in the hands of very impressive and capable people, was an enormous mystery to anyone who had not served on the House of Commons Commission. I agree with the hon. Member for Walsall South in that regard.

When we looked at the organogram—which is an ugly word, to be honest—we had no idea who was reporting to whom about what, and I think that one of our major tasks is to cut that structure down so that it is understandable. That is not just important to Members of Parliament, because it is very easy for them to have their views heard. They have opportunities to question the Leader of the House, to send messages to the Speaker, and to speak directly to the Clerk. A Member of Parliament has access to where authority lies. However, the employees of the House—the staff of the House—need to know who makes a decision, and whether that decision is authoritative or merely a suggestion made by someone higher up in the pecking order than them, but not high up enough to make the decision authoritative. I think that if we cut down the administration and simplify it, we will have clear lines of command that everyone will be able to understand, and better engagement with the people who work in the building.

I want to make one point on the relationship with the other place—with the noble Lords. I understand why their lordships are very nervous about this place trying to grab power from them. If I were in that place rather than in this place I would take the same view: that the House of Commons—by virtue of ultimately controlling the purse strings and by having the democratic mandate—is always in a position to peer over at what their lordships are doing. Although the champagne story may have been legendary if not mythical—anyway, I think their lordships ought to drink the highest quality of champagne; after all, if you’re a Lord, you must have some privilege of peerage—their lordships need to maintain their independence because they do not want to be a subsidiary Chamber. They are a second Chamber—the second Chamber—but not a subsidiary Chamber. In their procedures, and sometimes in aspects that do not immediately seem procedural but may have procedural implications, their lordships will want to keep their independence. We as the lower House must be incredibly tactful and diffident in how we deal with them. It is not for us to tell them what to do; it is for us to make tactful and polite suggestions. If we do that, we may, I hope, be able to maintain a good working relationship, but we must ensure that we do not appear to be engaged in a power grab.

I am honoured to have served on the Committee, which was very good and worked speedily. I am glad that today we are debating our report and that the Leader of the House and First Secretary of State is so generously allowing us time. He does not allow us time for some other things, but he is being very good in this respect. It is a happy coincidence that the former Clerk of this House, Lord Lisvane, was introduced to their lordships’ House earlier today. If he has read this report, I hope he thinks it is up to the standard of the reports issued when he was still in office.

Business of the House

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I believe that this matter is still being discussed. As with other matters relating to DCLG that have been raised today, I will ensure that the Secretary of State is aware of the hon. Gentleman’s question. I reiterate that DCLG questions will be on 2 February—a week on Monday, which is not far away—when there will be an opportunity to raise the matter directly with Ministers.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

In this year of anniversaries, may I draw to the Leader of the House’s attention the fact that today is the first anniversary of the European Scrutiny Committee’s request for a debate on European papers relating to the free movement of people? In the past couple of weeks, the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe have all appeared before the Committee and told us that, although they have a particular love of parliamentary scrutiny, they cannot explain why the motion has not been brought forward. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend, as First Secretary of State and therefore senior in the hierarchy, might be able to bring this delay to an end, or are Her Majesty’s Government in fact celebrating this anniversary by a party enjoining upon itself the joys of evading parliamentary scrutiny?

[Mr Hague]

This was an anniversary that Mr Speaker unaccountably omitted to mention yesterday. My hon. Friend has an acute sense of the seniority within the Government, which I appreciate. As he well knows, the European Scrutiny Committee has submitted a number of requests for debates on the Floor of the House and in Committee, and we are working to ensure that some of those requests are dealt with. I have also agreed to come to the Committee to discuss these matters.

Select Committee on Governance of the House

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

It is with some diffidence that I follow the greatest luminaries in the House who have spoken in this debate. It must be a rare debate that has had quite so many former Leaders of the House speak in it, and it is of fundamental importance.

It is worth looking at how this situation has evolved. In giving up his prerogative to appoint the Clerk, the Speaker made an important modernising and opening-up move, and that is to be commended. The setting up of a panel was a good way of opening up the process, even if I do not like the conclusion that it reached. Once it all came out, there was then, in this more open process, naturally a greater interest from the House in how it had all happened and whether it had happened in the best possible way. The Speaker has therefore been wise to agree to, and even to suggest, a pause in the process so that it may be thoroughly considered and a Clerk appointed who has the confidence of every Member of the House.

We have heard a very important debate on whether the role should be divided—on whether a Clerk can, by his nature, be good at running a big organisation, or a chief executive from outside can be a good Clerk. Underlying all that, there is this fundamental point: whatever other qualities the Clerk has, they must have the complete confidence of the House when advising individual Members and the Speaker on what the procedure is.

The great thing about an unwritten constitution is that, to an extent, we make it up as we go along. In this country, there are not really any constitutional experts; there are just people who insist that they know more about the constitution than the next person they talk to. There is an enormous amount of bluffing when people tell us what our constitution is. The more authoritatively people say they know what it is, the more they get away with it. [Laughter.] I know that, because it is a bluff that I am not ashamed to use myself from time to time. That is very important in a Clerk, and having a Clerk of 40 years’ experience may well be essential—they could well be an Australian Clerk, as the Australian Parliament follows some very similar procedures to ours, so there is no objection in principle to an Australian—because when a point of order is raised and the Speaker is quickly whispered advice by the Clerk, or one of the assistant Clerks, the whole House must then accept that ruling as authoritative. Otherwise we would have endless points of order questioning the authority of the Chair and the advice being given to the Speaker by the Clerk sitting in the row in front of him. That would lead to complete disorder. The procedures of the House cannot operate properly without confidence, and that requires the experience that allows the bluff to be realistic.

Then there is the question of seniority. Sometimes the requirements of democracy, and particularly the rights of the minority, need inefficiency within our systems. If we have a purely efficient system, the Government get all their legislation through, as they feel like it, with very little debate and rapid progress through the House. The inefficiencies ensure that the Opposition have their say—and those of us on the Government Benches must always remember that we will not remain there for ever. We therefore need the Clerk as the most senior figure and the one who can bluff the best.

Retirement of the Clerk of the House

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I hope that the House will forgive me for following the line of distinguished right hon. and hon. Members who have just been speaking, but I thought that a Member from the 2010 intake might say a few words. Before this debate, I consulted the Clerk of the House to find out whether I could amend the motion. I thought it might be sensible to table an amendment to say that Sir Robert could not retire until he had exceeded the length of service achieved by one Paul Jodrell, who managed 43 years in the post. I am sure that everyone in the House would have wanted that, as his retirement is a matter of great sadness and regret. It is a loss to us.

Sir Robert is a walking “Erskine May”. He is “Erskine May” made flesh. He understands and appreciates every bit of that great document and gives us the benefit of his wisdom. As a new Member, I came into the House and saw this splendidly bewigged figure. There is a lot to be said for wigs, as I am sure you will agree, Mr Speaker. I found him to be a gentle, amiable and knowledgeable person who was willing to help Members to find their way around procedures and help them to use those procedures to achieve their ends, rather than saying that precedent did not allow things to be done. When I asked him about a particular motion that I was thinking of tabling, he told me that it had not been used recently, by which he meant that it had not been used since 1751.

That is exactly what we want from a Clerk to the House. We want someone who is so steeped in the history that he understands where things have come from, and therefore how they can be used. When Sir Robert appeared before the Procedure Committee recently to discuss the concept of renewing petitioning and introducing e-petitions—a very modern idea—he took us back to 1305 and the origins of petitioning. Indeed, petitioning predates 1305. He explained how powerful petitioning had been in the earliest days of Parliament, and we drew the interesting conclusion that e-petitioning could be equally powerful in the new Parliament. That is where precedent can take us. It does not show us what cannot be done; it shows us what can be done. It is more a living aspect of this Parliament than a dead hand that does not allow change. Sir Robert saw that clearly; he got that right.

Sir Robert therefore enabled us to do things in a better way by ensuring that the powers of the House were there to be used, ideally, to keep a check on the Executive, which is what we are here to do. I am sorry that quill pens went out when he came in. Modernisation can sometimes come in too quickly and be taken too far. Finding that there is a precedent for exercising our power is at the heart of what we do, and the precedent of this House, which is vested in the Clerk, is the way in which we stop arbitrary uses of power. In Sir Robert, we had a man who was able to help us to hold the Executive to account, to stop arbitrary uses of power and to preserve democracy in this country. Whoever succeeds him will have a very hard act to follow. His departure represents an enormous loss, and I am very sad that he is not going to exceed the length of service achieved by Paul Jodrell. As a cricketing man, he will know that, although 42 is not a bad average, one will always want to carry on a bit longer in any individual innings.

House of Commons Business

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

And quite exciting. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) for that useful intervention from a sedentary position.

As things currently stand, let us imagine what would happen if we were taking the Report stage of a Bill on a Thursday. Colleagues will remember that there were occasions when we did consider Government business on a Thursday. We do not do that any more and many see that as an advance.

I greatly enjoy the opportunity to have Backbench Business Committee debates and to hear from informed colleagues about the subjects that matter to them and their constituents, so I am not harking back nostalgically to having Report stages on Thursdays. Rather, I am just asking us to imagine what the process would look like were we doing a Report stage on a Thursday now. On Tuesday night, amendments and new clauses would need to be tabled by 7.30 pm, when the House rises. On Wednesday morning amendments and new clauses would appear on the Order Paper. That evening the Government, following discussions with the usual channels, would table a supplementary programme motion dividing the time between the various new clauses and amendments. I am afraid that, at present, the supplementary programme motions are often informed guesswork. On that Thursday morning the selection and grouping would be circulated to Members, but the problem is that the supplementary programme motion is tabled before selection and grouping appears so it cannot take account of that selection and grouping. Therefore we get the inefficient allocation of time that creates difficulties for Members.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Walker]

If I have made a terrible mistake, I give way reluctantly to my hon. Friend.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and he certainly has not made a mistake. It just occurred to me that if the Government are aware of these matters slightly earlier in the proceedings, they may be able to use that information to their advantage to stop debate on things that they find inconvenient.

[Mr Walker]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, mostly because it was not targeted at me.

Let me explain what we are proposing. I think it is important that anybody who takes an interest in our debates or in parliamentary procedure or who reads Hansard should know what these changes mean. As of the next Session, on Monday the amendments and new clauses would be tabled. On Tuesday the amendments and new clauses would appear on the Order Paper. On Wednesday morning the draft selection and grouping would be done by the Speaker, and after that the supplementary programme motion would be tabled, and we would have the Report stage on Thursday.

I do not think that this will create a new nirvana for the House of Commons—that is an impossible aspiration—but let us just hope that this is a small improvement that pays some rather large dividends, because it is important for our constituents to know that their elected representatives will, if they feel strongly about something, get the chance to debate such issues or concerns on the Floor of the House during the Report stage. That is what we are proposing, and I am delighted that the Government have accepted it on a trial basis. I hope that it proves to be an enormous success.

Finally, I want to talk about e-petitions. The Procedure Committee is delighted to look at the issue. It has been bubbling away for a number of years and the systems we have, and have had, are by no means perfect. I hear the concerns raised by my fellow Select Committee Chairmen on the Opposition Benches. First, it is important that when we have e-petitions we do not set unrealistic expectations as to what can be achieved. We sit in a representative democracy; we are elected by our constituents to come here to represent them and our seats, and to raise their concerns in this place. We are not delegates; we are representatives and it is important to remember that. That is why an e-petitioning system that provides for additional debates in this place must not come at the cost of existing debates relating to Members of Parliament or those moved by Members of Parliament in approaches to the Backbench Business Committee. It is possible in the parliamentary weekly calendar to find more time for these debates to take place. Westminster Hall, for example, is still not fully utilised. Again, in bringing forward this additional time, we need to set realistic expectations of what can be achieved. Having a debate in this place allows for issues of the day to be aired and for the Government to take note of those issues and go away and reflect on them, but it does not lead to a guarantee of legislation, and it is important that people entering the e-petition system understand that.

I agree with the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), Chairman of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, that, ideally, the House of Commons will play a lead role in the petition system. I wish to see the wonderful officers of the House at the forefront of this process, guiding and explaining petitioners through the process, and explaining to them what they can hope to achieve from an e-petition. I very much see the House of Commons at the heart of this process, and that is not to be churlish to the Leader of the House or to the Government. I hope that the Procedure Committee will hear from the Government and from interested parties across the House and outside this place who want to see the best possible petition system put in place. The system should carry the confidence not only of the public, which is of course important, but critically of Members of Parliament, who will have to be at the forefront of taking a petition forward and moving it through the House of Commons.

That is really all I have to say. I thank the Clerk of my Committee and his team for all their hard work, and also those members of my Committee who have turned up today from beautiful places such as Birmingham, Somerset and Bury. What a fantastic effort it is for all these people to be here today supporting this Committee report when I know that they have pressing engagements in their own constituencies that they have had to put on hold.

Without detaining the House much further, I will make just one final point. There is one outstanding report left—it is outstanding because of its content and because it has not yet been dealt with—and that relates to private Members’ Bills. Our Committee is not suggesting anything revolutionary. We have come to a good agreement and compromise with the Government on what is achievable in the next Session, and I hope that we find time to debate that report on the Floor of the House before this Session ends in the next few days.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I, too, will concentrate on petitioning, although I may say a few words on other issues. I will start with the Bill of Rights. We have heard a lot about article 9 of the Bill of Rights, but article 5 maintains that

“it is the right of subjects to petition the King, and all commitments and prosecutions for such petitioning are illegal.”

The right to petition is an ancient and important one, and tends to go through this House to the King or, as now, the Queen. It is not unique to this House, which is why the Lord Privy Seal is right in his proposals for a collaboration—not a Vichyesque collaboration because we will not all become quislings, so “collaboration” is the right word—because the Queen in Parliament is the correct organisation or body to be petitioned.

The Leader of the House may be modelling himself on Edward I. During the Parliament of 1305, in the reign of Edward I, there were many petitions—450. What is so interesting is that they then began to become legislation. More Members of Parliament subscribed to the petitions coming in and they ended up becoming Bills. A complaint from Simon Le Parker is the first petition that can be identified as being listed in the statutes of the realm. I mention that because petitioning is extraordinarily important in the development of our democracy. By 1316, there was a claim that Edward II was not following the procedures of his father in taking proper notice of petitions. He duly did so and petitions were dealt with and acted upon. That is how this House gets redress of grievance from the Crown.

It is important to look at the procedure along the way. Since Parliament began to sit, constituents have come to their Members of Parliament who have then come from the counties or boroughs they represent to Westminster, or wherever Parliament was sitting, to say that something is wrong and needs to be changed. We, as Parliament, can do it through legislation, but much can be dealt with by the Crown without the need for legislation.

That is the twofold aspect of petitioning that we are rightly bringing under one e-petitioning system. It is entirely in line with our history and proper in terms of the constitutional division—the separation of powers—because there are clear and distinct roles between Parliament and the Crown, and Parliament and the Government. It has the chance of re-energising the petitioning process. I would not go as far as the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) in saying that paper petitioning is withering on the vine. It is still an important means for individual constituents to get a message to Parliament and through to the Government.

E-petitioning is hugely exciting. I heard the Leader of the House say that he was congenitally relaxed. On this occasion, and perhaps rarely, I am enormously excited by what is happening with e-petitioning because 10 million people have suddenly thought that it is worth while and in their interests to engage with the political process and to say that they feel strongly about something. The carrot that is dangled in front of them is a debate in the House of Commons. How proud we should be that 10 million people think that a debate in this place is so important and could be so transformative that it is worth their while organising and signing up to petitions.

I disagree with the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) who worries about the press becoming involved or Parliament being guided too much by what people outside think. I take the opposite view. If people want to launch campaigns to highlight important major issues, we would be a pretty funny sort of Parliament if we said that we did not want to consider them because they were not organised by an hon. Member. Indeed, I would have thought that most hon. Members, with their fine politically attuned antennae, would grasp such issues and think that if their constituents were so strongly in favour of something and 20,000 people in north-east Somerset think something is a good idea, it might be in their interests to pay attention, bring it to the House and perhaps go to the Backbench Business Committee to ask for some time.

[Mr Allen]

I wonder how many of those 10 million people feel that they have had a good shake out of the system as it currently operates. Are not many of them, if not a large majority, having signed a petition with probably nothing arising from it other than it being tagged on to another debate, reinforced in their view of a plague on all your houses and all your parties?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman thereby makes the case for bringing petitions under this House so that we can ensure that people have a proper response that they feel meet their needs.

Although they are not strictly petitions, hon. Members do receive e-mail campaigns. I find that when I reply to these, as I do—I reply individually to everybody who has sent in a missive—there is always a percentage who get in touch absolutely amazed that they have got a response. Indeed, some have completely forgotten that they ever signed up in the first place, are rather surprised to get a response, and wonder why I am writing to them out of the blue. Then, when I send them a copy of their original e-mail, they continue to be in a state of surprise. We need to give a response that shows that we are listening and doing something about the matter.

Of course, our constituents understand how this works. I should rather say my constituents; I can speak only for my own, who are the most intelligent people in the world. It is well known that the people of Somerset have more brain cells than can be found in the whole of the rest of the United Kingdom put together. The people of Somerset know these things. As you are in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will say the same for Bristol on this occasion. People understand that just because they are in favour of something, not everybody in the country will want it, and that the petition will not necessarily end up achieving what they want. Equally, though, they want to know that the matter has been taken seriously by the people who have the power to do something.

Getting e-petitioning right is a tremendously exciting opportunity for the House of Commons. It can ensure that we are back at the centre of public debate, with the public knowing what is going on. I really welcome the Government’s decision to proceed along these lines. In a spirit of generosity, the system they already have is basically being handed over to the Commons free, gratis and for nothing—which is better for us in terms of the expenditure of the House. It is then up to us, as a House, to grasp it. I agree with much of the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) as regards how we must deal with the implementation of petitioning to make sure that it is a House of Commons-owned process that is about holding the Government thoroughly to account.

Let me deal briefly with a couple of other matters—first, timetabling. My hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is in his place, took through two constitutional Bills that I opposed at almost every turn. This gives me an opportunity to say how helpfully he always engaged with those debates, which were a model of Government ensuring that the Commons had the chance to debate things and to do so seriously. If that is what is being done by having amendments tabled earlier for Report stages, it is hugely to be welcomed. Although I disagreed with almost everything my hon. Friend said in the constitutional debates, the courtesy with which he responded was a model for Governments to follow. I am glad to have had the chance to say that properly here.

On privilege, I am pleased that the Government are not going down the legislative route. It is better that the privilege of this House is rooted in history, is not open to challenge, and is simple and straightforward, in the straightforward language that people used in the 17th century. [Laughter.] Seventeenth-century language is much more understandable than the legislative language used today. In the 17th century, people wrote clear, straightforward, simple Bills that a layman can read. We now write legislation that is completely incomprehensible unless one is a silk. It seems to me preferable that we stick to the clarity and beauty of 17th-century English rather than confusing ourselves by allowing too many draftsmen to get involved with confusing privilege, and potentially undermining it. The one thing we do not want is learned judges interfering in the procedures of this House, and avoiding legislation is therefore greatly to be welcomed.

I am, for once, at one with the Government in all that they are trying to do, and I am grateful for what they are trying to do. As the Lord Privy Seal begins to think about where he may go for the brief holiday that we have during Prorogation—perhaps to Weston-super-Mare or another suitable beach—he can go a happy man thinking how well the petitioning system will do in the next and future Sessions of Parliament.