Aleppo and Syria
Graham P Jones Excerpts(8 years ago)
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Mr Mitchell
I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that, by having this three-hour debate today, we are moving some way in that direction.
I have a number of specific questions for the Foreign Secretary to address when he answers this debate. First, he has said that the UK is taking the lead on sanctions on Russia. Will he tell the House what steps the Foreign Office has taken towards increasing bilateral or EU sanctions on Russia itself? Secondly, there are plans for a new addition to the Nord Stream gas pipeline running from Russia to western Europe—Nord Stream 2—allowing Russia to bypass transit countries and, therefore, transit costs in eastern Europe. Will the Foreign Office be working with our east European allies to block the new pipeline?
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
I presume that we are talking about the gas pipeline that runs from Kurdistan through Turkey and the Black sea and bypasses Ukraine and the eastern provinces. The signing of that deal was agreed yesterday between Erdogan and Putin. A relationship seems to be building up between those two. Does the right hon. Gentleman have any view on that, because that movement of Turkey towards Russia is concerning?
Mr Mitchell
The Foreign Secretary has recently been in Turkey. I am sure that the House will be interested in his comments.
My third question for the Foreign Secretary is, what work has been done to catalogue and record human rights abuses—both individual and collective—in Syria? Will he update the House on the work of the Foreign Office, which was started and commissioned by the National Security Council in 2011, to collect evidence that can be used in the future to hold human rights abusers to account no matter how long it takes?
Fourthly, what steps has the Foreign Secretary taken with his colleagues in the Ministry of Defence to explore the feasibility of imposing and enforcing a no-fly zone over specific areas in Syria? Does he agree that, with the use of naval and air assets in the eastern Mediterranean, it is entirely possible both to monitor and enforce a no-fly zone with our allies? What steps will he take to make it clear to the international community that a no-fly zone is a matter of will and not of practicality?
Libya
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Mr Hammond
I am afraid that I cannot, really. I can give a personal view: I would expect that we would be talking about a training mission of the sort of scale of those that we are carrying out in other countries around the world. I therefore would expect there to be between tens and hundreds of trainers, not thousands of trainers.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
The Foreign Secretary says that we must tackle Daesh, but Prime Minister Sarraj only operates with the permission of the militia. Does not the Foreign Secretary think that in certain circumstances some of the militia are aligned with malevolent forces, particularly in other parts of the country, and is he not concerned that the militia are at the heart of the Government and of the future process of government? Where will that leave Libya in the future?
Mr Hammond
I think that there is a misunderstanding about what the militia are. After 2011, Libya fragmented. Every city, every town and every region had its armed forces—armed men who were protecting their communities. That does not make them bad people. They are not extreme Islamists in most cases; they are simply people who have formed home defence units, and they are the only force on the ground. It is not possible to talk about raising new Libyan armed forces that will then take on all the militias—that would be a completely unrealistic project. The only way forward is to co-opt militias into a nascent Libyan armed forces, backed by a political system that is highly devolved and that assures them of autonomy and fair shares of Libya’s wealth for the communities they seek to back.
Central and East Africa
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Stephen Phillips
Having made those decisions, my right hon. Friend will know far more about them than anyone else. I do not say that they were bad decisions at the time, but in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field), the UK has probably had something of a lesser voice in the counsels of Burundi than might otherwise have been the case. I have made a suggestion—the Minister may be aware of it—that given his ministerial responsibilities, he might like to encourage his counterparts in China, who do have a strong voice in Burundi, to discourage President Nkurunziza from going down the route that he appears to be attempting to go down.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
Does the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that one consideration in withdrawing aid from Burundi, which comes through from speaking to British aid workers in the region, is simply the level of corruption and the inability to deliver an aid programme against that backdrop?
Stephen Phillips
I do accept that. Indeed, extensive corruption and the lack of assurance that the aid was reaching its intended targets were among the reasons I gave to explain why aid was withdrawn from Burundi.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) and the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) on securing this timely debate, particularly given the situation in Rwanda, on which I shall focus; the fact that this week we are commemorating Genocide Memorial day on 27 January; and the events that continue to take place in the region. It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), who gave an outstanding speech. He always speaks with honesty and integrity on the region.
Rwanda has long been one of the UK’s closest allies in Africa and certainly in east Africa. Since the genocide in 1994, the UK Government have helped Rwanda probably more than any other nation. In the past decade or so, Rwanda has experienced some of the highest economic growth rates anywhere in the world. The World Bank report, “Doing Business 2010”, which tracked global business regulation, put Rwanda at the top of the reform table, stating that Kigali had lowered more barriers to investment than anywhere else in the world. When I visited Rwanda, that was certainly the impression I gained.
It is evident that Rwanda has made significant improvements in reducing poverty, as the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield said: 1 million children have been lifted out of poverty in the past four years, and a poverty reduction programme has been under way for more than two decades. Partly as a result of UK aid, partly as a result of UK policy in Rwanda and partly because of our bilateral relationship, we have been able to attract other donors. Crucially, we have managed to get that through general budget support to the Rwandan Government, which has been highly effective.
Our own Foreign and Commonwealth Office country advice states:
“President Kagame and the [Rwandan Patriotic Front] have achieved significant advances in poverty reduction and economic development through a strong vision for the transformation of Rwanda following the genocide. Rwanda has significantly lower levels of crime, violence and corruption than other countries in the region.”
The report adds:
“Rwanda is an open economy and has achieved impressive economic growth. Between 2001 and 2012 GDP growth averaged 8%”.
That contrasts with Burundi, its neighbour, which continues to struggle, with a per capita income that is just 25% of that of Rwandans.
On my two visits to Rwanda, I noticed the number of billboards advertising an anti-corruption hotline. That concurs with the FCO report. FCO country advice is that there is very little corruption in Rwanda due to an ongoing Government commitment to eliminate it. I have personal experience of that, as I was prevented from getting on a flight leaving Rwanda. That was not my fault—due to strict adherence to rules by a junior member of staff, I was not allowed to leave the country.
Today, we find ourselves conflicted on Rwanda, and too easily taken in by those who seek to change Rwanda from the outside and wish to impose the level of democracy that they want, irrespective of the wishes of the people of Rwanda. The recent referendum on an extension of presidential terms is an example. The United States and European Union warned that the move undermined democratic principles. The US Department of State said in a statement that Washington was “deeply disappointed”, and the US ambassador, Samantha Power stated :
“We expect President Kagame to step down at the end of his term in 2017”.
Sections of the international press followed suit and viewed the referendum as a
“manipulation of democracy to breed a dictatorship.”
All of this threatens to undermine development and stability in Rwanda. This strategy risks emboldening terrorist organisations such as the FDLR militia, which is hiding out on Rwanda’s border and still seeks Hutu power. Its sympathisers, including in Europe, are given credence as a result of these statements. Also, policies on aid are shifted for political purposes, not for a beneficial purposes. It is acknowledged through UK aid’s general budget support that the Rwandan Government have long been one of the best conduits for efficient aid spending. UK aid’s primary purpose is to spend UK taxpayers’ money in a way that is most effective in meeting millennium development targets and reducing long-term poverty.
For Britain, there is a third consequence: our friendship with Rwanda is becoming unnecessarily frayed. International election observers described the referendum as “free and fair”. In my time there, it was abundantly clear to me that Kagame had phenomenal support, in public and in private. He emphasised Africa’s biggest problem as
“a lack of good governance”
and posed the question,
“Why has Africa remained the poorest continent, meaning its people are the poorest, yet the continent is the richest?”
The west is in the paradoxical position of criticising free and fair elections yet denouncing the will of the Rwandan people, 3.7 million of whom—more than 60% of voters—signed the petition to change the part of the constitution limiting the President to two terms. In that vote, 98.3% were in favour of the change. That sounds like a phoney figure, but when I went there and spoke with taxi drivers and ordinary people in private, I found that the level of support for the Government was immense. It is easy to see why: growing incomes and living standards; free education; free healthcare; phenomenal development across the country, often targeting the poorest; and streets that are safe at night. It was also easy to see the fear of a return to Hutu Power. Speaking to recent FDLR militia soldiers, it is worrying that the FDLR seems able to recruit new members and, importantly, that they share the arguments and tone of the opposition against Kagame.
It does the west no good in east Africa, or indeed anywhere, to make over-the-top statements about Rwanda, and I am pleased that the UK Government refrained from such statements on the recent referendum. I was pleased that France and Belgium, as far as I could see, also refrained from direct criticism. For too long their former colonial interests have trumped their international responsibilities in the region. The effect of this 20-year dispute has been not only to strain relations—although I am concerned that the wider European Union was allowed to repeat the criticisms of Rwanda by the United States on the recent referendum—but to destabilise the politics of the region and the international community and to promote the causes of those who wish to see the current Rwandan Administration fall.
Rwanda has real concerns with Belgium and France, particularly in relation to the genocide, leading to its acceptance within the British-led Commonwealth in 2009. Rwanda has adopted English as the first language in place of French as a result of these tensions. It is important that these politics do not influence or shape our aid commitments through the international media or institutions that wish to influence us. Speaking to officials both in UK aid and in Rwanda, it is clear that this flexibility has helped them achieve remarkable developmental and economic achievements. Sadly, that has now changed due to the politics that comes with aid.
Following the UN report, which I have read, of Rwanda’s involvement in illegal military support in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, supporting the M23 militia, our aid programme was changed away from general budget support towards direct budget support or targeted programmes, reducing the Rwandan Government’s ability to function and deliver services that it had previously delivered. The UN report is considerable and provides plentiful anecdotal evidence against Rwanda, but it lacks documentary evidence—guns, munitions, photos, attributable quotes, dates and times of events are all missing. I have no doubt that Rwanda has engaged against the supporters of Hutu Power in neighbouring countries; they are fearful even today, 20 years on. The threats from the militia still exist, and they see a west that has long had a policy of liberal interventionism in self-defence in its own interests, but that seems to have a hypocritical position.
As a result of the UN report and growing criticism by opponents of Rwanda, in 2012 the UK Government held back £21 million in aid, reversing a decision by the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield, who part-authorised the aid payment. It is no surprise that this aid change caused consternation in Kigali. Central Government budget programmes supported by UK aid were put in jeopardy and the trust in donors was eroded. It is seen as an intrusion into sovereignty. UK and western donors would be wise to consider fully the consequences of such changes in aid provision.
Rwanda has been at the forefront of poverty reduction in Africa. It is unusual in that it has a popular and stable Government, which is something we should be mindful of. It is also a close ally of the UK—a special relationship —and we should value that friendship as well as the progress Rwanda has made.
The reason we should value that relationship can be seen in Burundi, which is another country I have had the opportunity to see at first hand. Crossing the border, we noticed the differences immediately. In Rwanda we saw well-dressed people going about their business, walking freely along the road, but that gave way to impoverished Burundians, lacking substantial clothes, often barefoot and hanging about aimlessly along roadsides. Half the population are under the age of 16. Per capita income has fallen to a quarter of that in Rwanda over the past 20 years. Burundi is the fourth poorest country in the world, and the UK and the European Union have stopped providing aid because we cannot guarantee that it will not be lost to corruption. Such instability makes it difficult to find structures to deliver aid.
Burundi has elections that we consider, on paper, to be more democratic than those in Rwanda, but is that a meaningful comparison? Outside of the capital, Bujumbura, it is a country without much structure and with endemic poverty. With the collapse of presidential support, the country is once again on the verge of widespread violence. Hundreds of Burundians have died so far in the disturbances. It is a democracy led by patronage and corruption. Magazine sellers in Kigali can sell anti-Kagame magazines—they do so outside the Milles Collines hotel—and the country has a universal healthcare system, a low level of crime, and free education. By contrast, the people of Burundi have to live in poverty, with little state support and under the dark cloud of sectarian violence and killing.
However noble the aim, Burundi is an example of the west’s failure to support or uphold a healthy democracy, despite much effort, and the casualties are some of the poorest people in the world. The comparator with Rwanda should teach us that we should be far more careful in our criticism, for the forces of terror and Hutu Power seek solace and support from our easy criticisms.
Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) on securing this important debate, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), who is sadly unable to join us, and I welcome the opportunity to speak in it.
Many Members have spoken about various countries in the African region. My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey) made some interesting points about Kenya and the need to tackle corruption—something that is important to us all, and to our constituents. I want to touch on the two countries that I have visited most in Africa—there are hon. Friends in the House with whom I have visited them—which are Rwanda and Burundi. I first travelled to Rwanda about 10 years ago, on my first ever trip to central Africa. Over the years, I have gone back regularly, and I have been incredibly impressed and moved by two things. The first is the friendships that I have developed there and the way that people have shared with me their experiences of the terrible genocide 20 years ago. With that memory, we must ensure that we never let that happen again.
Secondly, I have noticed the huge steps forward that have been made in Rwanda in infrastructure development. On my first visit, travelling down towards the border with Burundi was incredibly difficult. The route was literally a red dirt track, which, over the years, has developed. Economic development has gone at a tremendous pace, as has education, as other Members have said. I have seen many examples of the work that DFID has done there, as well as the FCO and the many NGOs and civil society groups. I have seen how people have expanded the country’s economic development way beyond gorilla tourism, tea and coffee. I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to meet many small entrepreneurs—people who have been given a chance, a hope, and a lot of support. The British Government and DFID have a very long and proud history of working not just in Rwanda, but in many other countries.
More recently, I was able to travel to Burundi, which has also been deeply affected by conflict. As the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) said, there is a huge contrast between Burundi and Rwanda in terms of development. I, too, took that away from my visit. For me, the main message is the reminder that stability and peace really matter—not only for the countries I have visited and about which I am speaking tonight, but for the whole region and indeed way beyond it.
The region has a history of instability and fighting. We have heard many examples of the ongoing issues. I find it particularly worrying to hear reports of the deepening political, humanitarian and security crisis unfolding in Burundi. I believe that more than 200,000 have fled the country to the neighbouring countries of Tanzania, Rwanda, Uganda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Not only is there a deepening political crisis, but a deepening refugee crisis.
Graham Jones
The hon. Lady makes a very good point. Will she respond to this point, which I nearly mentioned, but wanted to raise? The stability in Rwanda enables it to supply forces to the African Union—I believe its forces are operating in four other countries with the African Union—and bringing such stability must be welcome.
Wendy Morton
When it comes to the region, the role of the African Union must be recognised, as should the strength that comes from countries working together. It is not only about Rwanda. To take the example of Burundi, its peacekeeping force has been doing worthy work in Somalia. This is about working with the region for the benefit of the region and way beyond it.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) on securing this debate. The wide range of contributions that we have heard today may have stretched the definition of the region of east and central Africa, but the United Nations’ definition —I looked this up in advance—of sub-regions of eastern and middle Africa encompass more than 20 countries—from Chad, Cameroon and South Sudan in the north to Malawi, Zambia and Zimbabwe in the south—and between us we have covered just about everywhere in between. I shall focus on a couple of countries in particular and reflect on some of the themes that we have heard from the Members who have spoken.
Eritrea was mentioned. It has one of the worst human rights records on the continent. It has been described as the North Korea of Africa. As has been said, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook) led a very useful Adjournment debate before Christmas on the situation in Eritrea, and I know that there are ongoing efforts to establish an all-party parliamentary group, so it would be useful to hear from the Minister what recent representations have been made to the Eritrean Government about their continued use of indefinite conscription and the detention without trial of human rights campaigners, and what discussions he has had with the Home Office about the treatment of refugees from Eritrea here in the United Kingdom. I have heard from constituents and campaign groups that the current Home Office assessment guidance is totally unsuitable. People are being returned to a country where the Foreign and Commonwealth Office itself advises against travel to areas within 25 km of the Ethiopian border.
Irrespective of UK citizens travelling to Africa, many citizens from central Africa wish to travel here, not to stay, claim asylum or soak up benefits, but simply to visit family and friends, to promote business or to promote human rights and good governance. Too often, we hear stories of visa applications being knocked back, or application processes being beyond the reach of many citizens in countries with poor infrastructure. What discussions has the Minister had with the Home Office on that matter?
The broader issue of population movement and displacement has been a theme of this debate. It demonstrates how very few crises are contained within one set of borders, particularly when the borders are the result of a colonial or post-colonial dividing up of the map, rather than any democratic or consultative process. This is particularly true of the discussions that have been held about the situation in Burundi and the close link that exists with the previous situation in Rwanda. Hon. Members have emphasised the contrast that now exists between the two.
I declare an interest, as Members might have heard me do before. I worked for SCIAF, the Scottish Catholic International Aid Fund, which has projects in Burundi. I have heard stories of beneficiaries and partners who are subject to fear, restricted freedom of movement and of the economic impact of the violence on them. SCIAF is part of the global Caritas Internationalis family, which estimates that at least 400 people and probably more have been killed since April, 3,500 have been arrested and 220,000 have fled to neighbouring countries which, as we have heard throughout the debate, increases pressure within those societies. In addition, there are many internally displaced people.
The warnings about Burundi from Zeid Ra’ad Al Hussein, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, are stark: “all alarm signals flashing red,” he has said. Hundreds are dead as a result of political violence in recent months, and there have been reports of sexual and gender-based violence and, most worryingly of all, reports of systemic ethnic targeting that are far too reminiscent of the genocide in Rwanda and the previous civil war in Burundi. We cannot, and must not, stand by and allow this to happen again. Later this week we mark Holocaust Memorial Day, and this year’s theme is exactly that—not to stand by, but rather to learn the lessons of the past, speak out and never again permit genocide to happen.
The Government of Burundi have international obligations to protect their citizens, and the international community has a role in preventing violence and any degeneration of the situation. It would be interesting to know what role the Minister sees the UK Government playing to support international efforts to end the cycle of violence in Burundi. What steps are the Government taking to support a humanitarian response and the protection of humanitarian organisations already on the ground? In particular, what role do the Government see for the African Union? The hon. Members for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) and for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) both touched on this. Are the Government, for example, prepared to back the African Union diplomatically if it decides to send in peacekeepers, even without the invitation of the Burundian Government? This is an important moment for the African Union to demonstrate its authority and mandate, and not only to try to resolve the situation in Burundi, but to send a message to the rest of continent about the role it intends to play in supporting development, peace and stability.
Civil society has a hugely important role to play in Burundi and across the region. Strong civil societies that can hold Governments to account ought to be—and must become—an alternative to violent protests that can spin out of control. Front-line civil society organisations play an important role protecting or supporting some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in their societies.
One of the poorest and most vulnerable societies not only in the region but in the entire world is the Democratic Republic of the Congo. As the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) mentioned, the greatest irony is that, in fact, the DRC should be one of the richest countries in the world. We all carry around with us in our pockets a little bit of the DRC in the form of either coltan or cobalt, which are essential ingredients in mobile phone devices. Instead of being one of the richest countries in the world, the DRC is one of the poorest—it is 176th out of 188 on the UN human development index. To me, that sums up everything that is not just wrong but perverse about the systems we have in place to regulate global trade and protect human rights. How can it be that something so valuable that we take for granted in this part of the world can be so cheapened?
Graham Jones
The hon. Gentleman makes a valuable point about the connection between some of the mining companies, which are in essence the wealth of Africa and eastern DRC, and some of the Administrations in Africa, particularly South Africa, that benefit from the mining interests in eastern DRC and across the Congo. Nothing seems to be done about that relationship and there is an ongoing problem. The wealth of eastern DRC and Africa is taken and nothing is done about it by those who could do more in terms of the ethics of that mining.
Patrick Grady
That is a very valuable exposition of the point I am trying to make on the regulation of multinationals. It is hugely important that they are able to report on their supply chains and who their suppliers are; the relationships they have with the producers of the minerals they use; and the tax they raise and profits they make—so-called country-by-country reporting. There is a role for the UK Government as part of the European Union and the broader global community to place those issues front and centre. As I have said, Amnesty International and others regularly produce, including recently, evidence of the use of child labour in mines. Those mines go on to supply major electronic brands, including Apple, Samsung and Sony, with the kind of things that we carry around and interact with every single day. It would be useful to know how the Government will take steps on many of those issues, and what steps they will take to work with NGOs on the ground that are trying to extend protections for artisanal miners and to end the worst forms of child labour.
As we have also heard, the DRC is, like much of the region, experiencing climate change. Climate change exacerbates the problems of food and security, access to water, and population displacement. In many ways, it ultimately fuels the kind of instability that leads to the conflicts we have heard about. The Government have a responsibility to live up to their commitments on climate change. It will be interesting to hear what steps they have taken, for example, to promote the adoption of renewable energy on the continent rather than tying developing countries into fossil fuel infrastructure that will quickly become redundant.
Hon. Members have mentioned other countries. My hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Stuart Blair Donaldson) and the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey) mentioned Kenya, which is experiencing instability—there are worrying reports of human rights abuses. The Scottish National party manifesto called for a special envoy in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on global lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex issues to show leadership on discrimination, which is all too prevalent in many of those countries. It would be useful to hear what consideration the Minister will give to that proposal.
Respect for human rights is at the core of much of what we have heard and debated today. If Government and non-state actors alike were to show more respect for basic human rights—both rights to material needs such as food, clothing and shelter, and political rights to freedom of thought, speech and assembly—perhaps the humanitarian need would not be so great.
Today, of course, we mark one of Scotland’s great humanitarians, Robert Burns. Perhaps in our approach to central and eastern Africa, like so many other areas, we should be guided by his great anthem to solidarity and egalitarianism:
“Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a’ that,)
That Sense and Worth, o’er a’ the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an’ a’ that.
For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
It’s coming yet for a’ that,
That Man to Man, the world o’er,
Shall brothers be for a’ that.”
Oral Answers to Questions
Graham P Jones Excerpts(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Ellwood
My hon. and learned Friend is right to articulate the loopholes that still exist. We are hoping that Iran, which has committed itself to continued talks in the Vienna process, will make the necessary changes to ensure that the loopholes are closed.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
Currency is clearly flowing out of ISIL towards Afghanistan to fund its huge operations there. As with any criminal organisation, currency will be flowing out of ISIL into foreign and western bank accounts to secure a future that it foresees. What success have we had in stemming that flow and capturing the people who are involved in the transfer of currency from ISIL as it exists as a state to wherever else it is going?
Mr Ellwood
The hon. Gentleman is correct. It is not only finances that are moving out of Iraq and Syria, but people. The fighters are moving to other parts of the world to promote their extremist cause. Afghanistan is one of those places and Libya is another. We are closing in on the individuals who are providing the accounts and we now have the legislative means to close them. It will be difficult, but we need to work with those countries outside Iraq and Syria if we are to defeat extremism and close the financial channels it uses.
Daesh: Syria/Iraq
Graham P Jones Excerpts(8 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
Order. I was going to call the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), but I wish to be assured that he did not leave the Chamber at any stage.
Mr Speaker
Very well; I will not inquire further into the hon. Gentleman’s domestic arrangements.
Graham Jones
I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for a welcome statement. He talks about defeating Daesh and, of course, all the financial implications, but as we see in Afghanistan, ISIS is now recruiting in 24 of the 39 states. It is transferring money clearly from the oilfields of Syria and Iraq to fund that campaign and paying some of its soldiers—the foreign fighters— $600 a month, and it has now got trained divisions in Afghanistan and has declared war on the Taliban. What is the Government’s assessment of the situation in Afghanistan, and what does he think ought to be done to defeat Daesh?
Mr Hammond
Whatever the hon. Gentleman’s issues, after the 11-and-a-half-hour Syria debate, it is not a problem that any of us think you share, Mr Speaker.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. There is evidence of Daesh penetration in many countries, including Afghanistan. What we have to do in Afghanistan is to continue to support the Government, as we and the international coalition have done, to fund the Afghan national police and the Afghan national army to resist the attempt to create a new caliphate, and we will find that happening elsewhere. We need to be clear about this; it will pop up in other countries as well, and we need to be ready to respond to it, wherever it arises.
Europe: Renegotiation
Graham P Jones Excerpts(8 years, 11 months ago)
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Mr Lidington
The problem with the idea of a unilateral national parliamentary veto, which my hon. Friend advocates, is that it would mean that, for example, the most protectionist Parliament in any one member state could veto every deregulatory and every single market measure that the United Kingdom believed was profoundly in the interests of our people and our prosperity. Such a unilateral veto would be incompatible even with the arrangements that Norway and Switzerland have with the European Union. I just say to him that if he had had the privilege and responsibility of sitting at Council of Ministers meetings in Brussels, a responsibility that he may well indeed enjoy at some future stage of his career, he would be less sanguine about what he terms the unambitious nature of what we are proposing. What we are proposing is going to require some very tough negotiating indeed.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
It is ridiculous that the Prime Minister is putting the referendum to the British people but he cannot explain what the British people are voting for. If they are voting out but they are not voting for the arrangements Norway or Switzerland have, what is it that the British people are voting for?
Mr Lidington
That will be a question for those who are campaigning for out to make clear when the referendum comes. A number of studies have been published on what various options for British engagement with Europe would look like. As for the Government, we are relentlessly focused on securing a successful outcome to this negotiation and delivering the reformed Europe that the British people want.
Oral Answers to Questions
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Mr Ellwood
I did say that there are others, including the Iraqis themselves, who have put together those numbers, and I am more than happy to share those with the hon. Gentleman if he wants to see them. With regard to the decision to invade Iraq, lessons have certainly been learned. We await the Chilcot inquiry, but I recall that after the invasion a diktat went around the Department for International Development saying that the war was illegal, so in Basra we went from being liberators to occupiers. That is not the way to do it. There are lessons to be learned, and we are learning such lessons and applying them in Iraq today.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
12. What recent assessment he has made of the situation in Syria.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond)
Syria is facing a humanitarian crisis as a result of the continued assault by the Assad regime on the civilian population and the brutal occupation of a significant part of the country by ISIL. The Russian intervention—purportedly to join the fight against ISIL, but in fact targeting principally non-ISIL opposition positions—is complicating the situation and risks driving much of the opposition into the arms of ISIL.
Graham Jones
The Financial Times reported on Thursday that ISIS is making $1.5 million a day, plus racketeering, plus ransom money, plus proceeds stolen from the banks. It is a $1 billion organisation now. Where is that money going? It is not kept in shoeboxes under beds. What are the British Government doing to pursue the financial interests of ISIS?
Mr Hammond
The UK is heavily involved in that particular strand of coalition activity—intercepting financial streams—and, of course, the coalition is also taking kinetic action to try to disrupt ISIL’s revenue-generating activities. However, because we target cautiously, to avoid collateral damage and civilian casualties, there is a limit to the kinetic action that we can take.
Civilians in Syria
Graham P Jones Excerpts(9 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Ellwood
I will not give way, because of the time.
The UK supports the efforts of the UN envoy, Staffan de Mistura, who faces a complex and challenging task. The UN Security Council and the wider international community must support Mr de Mistura’s efforts as he works with the Syrian parties to deliver a political process that brings about an inclusive transition.
Mr Ellwood
No, I will not give way.
The Russian Government’s increased support for Assad has further complicated an already complex situation. They must take responsibility for their part in escalating the Syrian war. By predominantly hitting non-ISIL targets, they will only fuel more extremism and more radicalisation.
We call on Russia to cease its attacks on the Syrian opposition and civilians and to focus its efforts on ISIL. Observers of the middle east will know that Russia’s strong links with and interests in Syria are not new. Secret agreements offering diplomatic and political support were signed even before Syria gained its independence from France. The Soviets offered military help to form the Syrian army in the first place and Hafez al-Assad sided with the Soviets during the cold war and agreed the permanent basing of naval, land and air assets. This is not just about global posturing but Russia’s actions in shoring up a tyrant who was on his way out, and it will lead to Russia’s losing influence in the long term.
It took six days for Russia to strike any ISIL targets at all. More than 85% of Russian strikes have been—
Mr Ellwood
I will not give way. I have made it very clear that time is short and I am answering the hon. Member for Batley and Spen. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will hang on to his seat and I will be delighted to speak to him after the debate.
It is clear that Russia’s priority is not to defeat ISIL but to prop up Assad. Russia has violated Turkish airspace three times in the past week and the UK strongly condemns these provocative violations of NATO members’ sovereign airspace. It is important that allies show solidarity to ensure the inviolability of NATO airspace is respected, so we call on Russia to stop targeting civilians and opposition groups, which are part of the future of Syria. This is Russia’s biggest air deployment beyond its borders since the cold war, with fast jets, helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, electronic warfare and air defence systems propping up an ailing Syrian regime whose military is exhausted, depleted and demoralised.
Russia’s entry, with all its propaganda, will no doubt delay a resolution and the political transition about which the hon. Member for Batley and Spen spoke rather than expediting them. It will also widen the extremism footprint for Russia, as significant numbers of foreign fighters supporting ISIL will no doubt react to Putin’s actions.
The hon. Lady mentioned safe zones, and I have taken a lot of time over the summer to consider the issue in detail. We will continue to look at all options along with our allies to protect civilians in Syria. There has been talk of safe or protected zones, no-fly zones and so on, but history tells us that implementing genuinely safe zones is difficult and must be accompanied by an international mandate that would provide the will, the authority and the full means to ensure that they have a chance of being effective. It would also involve significant military commitment. As we have seen, that can be hard to come by from the various Parliaments across the world.
We should also bear in mind the legal justification for intervention in another country has five means. One is a UN Security Council resolution—
Mr Ellwood
I will not give way. The other legitimate means for engagement include article 51 of the UN Charter, or the right collectively to defend others, or intervention to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe, as we saw in Kosovo. The final such means is an invitation by the leader, which is what we saw in Iraq.
The hon. Member for Batley and Spen mentioned the humanitarian situation. The UK has been at the forefront of the humanitarian response to the conflict in Syria. I am pleased to say that we have pledged more than £1.1 billion in aid in response to the crisis in Syria and the region. I visited the Zaatari camp in north Jordan in the summer and my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces, who is in her place, has just come back from Azraq. I am pleased to say that we are seeing how well British money is spent. It is clear that refugees want to stay in the region where they have family and cultural ties, and the cost of housing one refugee in the UK equates to supporting more than 20 refugees locally. Let me make it clear that the standard of that support is very different, but that just illustrates the difficult decisions people are having to make in every country about how much money we spend domestically and how much we spend in the region.
The Prime Minister also announced on 7 September the expansion of the Syrian vulnerable persons relocation scheme to resettle up to 20,000 Syrians in need of protection during this Parliament. Since the crisis began in 2011, the UK has granted asylum to nearly 5,000 Syrian nationals and their dependants.
In conclusion, we are well aware that Syria remains the greatest humanitarian tragedy of our time. We must support the desire of ordinary Syrians for a future free of the cruelty of Assad and the barbarity of ISIL. I end by apologising to Opposition Members for not being able to take interventions. As they can see from my notes, I have plenty more to say on the matter—
Mr Ellwood
I will not give way, no. The hon. Gentleman is not going to tease me at this last moment. I invite and encourage a wider debate that lasts longer than 30 minutes, which I would very much welcome—