Storm Bert: National Preparedness

Debate between Earl Russell and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Thursday 28th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

On the dredging question, the Environment Agency undertakes dredging to manage flood risk where it is technically effective, does not significantly increase flood risk for others down stream and is environmentally acceptable. Some locations will benefit from this and others will not, so it is looked at case by case. On flood warnings, my feeling is that most of the time they work very well. I am signed up for them: we get them by email and text, and we get a phone call. I urge anyone who has not signed up for flood warnings and who lives in a flood area to do so, because they are effective. Regarding having a single place, that is something I can take back to the department to review.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, for every one degree rise in temperature, the air can hold up to 7% more moisture. In the UK, rapid climate change is having an ever more devastating impact on our local citizens and property. We are particularly seeing a rise in very localised extreme weather surface water flooding events. What action are the Government taking to help improve the forecasting models for these hyper-localised devastating flooding events?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The answer is twofold. First, what do we need to do to reduce the likelihood of surface flooding? A lot of the nature-based solutions that we have been bringing in and discussing in the water Bill will help towards that. Climate change is having a serious impact, so we need to review the effectiveness of how we are working and have a long-term model. We have set up the new flood resilience forum, which will look across the board to consider floods that have taken place and how we can react better in future.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl Russell and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Committee stage
Monday 4th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I completely get the noble Baroness’s point. I would hope that, when we do the review, we look completely across all the issues to do with a water company, including the way it behaves because of the way it is set up, and that that should be part of any consideration. By the time we have reported, I am sure the noble Baroness will be very happy to have another Labour Government.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her responses on this group. Mine was a probing amendment and I appreciate her response. I fully recognise that there would be issues with six months as a period, but I think it is important that we have a discussion about the power of revoking licences. I appreciate that the Government are keeping that under review. On Amendment 97, I appreciate what she says about the courts and their powers in all this: that was a welcome response. On Amendment 98 on the public ownership of water companies, I think her response to the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, giving those figures and calculations, was useful in moving that debate forward. Obviously, there are costs involved in that and in the Government supporting failing water companies as well. I know that these are difficult matters. Of course, on our Benches we want to have public ownership of water companies, and we will continue to support that, but I thank the Minister for her inclusive responses and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl Russell and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I do not have that detailed information. I will write to the noble Lord and place a copy of the letter in the Library so it is available to everybody ahead of Report.

Amendment 50 was tabled by my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone. The Government fully agree that emergency overflows should be monitored. However, we do not support the removal of the delegated power for Ministers to make exceptions to the Clause 3 duty. We believe that this power is necessary to allow for scenarios where it is not feasible to monitor emergency overflows, such as where an overflow is due to be decommissioned. Removing this power may inadvertently lead to delays in commencing this duty, if issues arose that we could not resolve without this power. Any exception to the monitoring duty would need to be agreed by Parliament using the affirmative statutory instrument procedure.

On Amendment 58, tabled by my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone, water companies should bear the cost of understanding the impact of their discharges on water quality. Installing and maintaining continuous water quality monitors requires regular access to water company sites. Water companies can do this much more easily than can the Environment Agency. Defra has issued guidance on the expected standards of these monitors, and in future all monitors will be expected to become independently certified under the Environment Agency’s certification scheme. Water quality data that will be made available will then be scrutinised by the independent regulator. Regulators will continue to work with water companies to ensure that the data is of high quality. I hope that this reassures my noble friend and that she feels able not to press her amendments.

Amendment 75 was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and I thank her for raising this issue. Misusing sewers to dispose of materials such as wet wipes and cooking oils contributes to major issues, such as blockages in the sewerage system. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, asked whether I have gone down a sewer. I have, and it is just disgusting; it is quite extraordinary what can happen there. Sewer blockages cost the water industry £200 million a year to fix and are responsible for 40% of pollution incidents.

Many people are not aware that the actions they take in their own homes can have such damaging impacts. Small but significant steps, such as not pouring fats and oils down the plug hole, can prevent blockages. The Government work to encourage all householders and businesses to play their part, and fully support water industry campaigns to address this issue, including Water UK’s “Bin the Wipe” campaign. I completely understand where the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, is coming from. I will take this away and look at whether there is any more we can do to draw attention to this fact.

Having said that, we do not believe that water companies should be exempt from sanctions when using emergency overflows following blockages caused by sewer misuse. Water companies should take every reasonable measure to prevent the use of emergency overflows, including measures to prevent blockages. Some blockages caused by sewer misuse can often be mitigated by good maintenance; for example, by detecting blockages before they become significant issues and with preventive cleaning. The intent of this Bill is to strengthen water companies’ accountability for pollution incidents and not to diminish it. That is why Clause 2 will require water companies to publish the pollution incident reduction plans that we debated earlier.

I was interested in the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Deben, to look at how Canda deals with this issue. My brother-in-law lives in Canada, so my family and I go there. It is a really interesting suggestion.

I turn to Amendment 87, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. Proactive data publication is vital for transparency and to enable the public to scrutinise water companies. While we support the principle of transparency and are taking action to increase transparency through Clauses 2 and 3, we are concerned that the noble Baroness’s specific proposals duplicate pre-existing provisions and would create practical difficulties. Case law and the Information Commissioner’s Office have been clear: water companies are public bodies for the purpose of the Environmental Information Regulations, and water companies already provide information under these regulations.

The Information Commissioner’s Office is clear that water companies must be transparent, and it is taking several actions to enforce that. In May of this year, the ICO released decision notices for six water companies, instructing them to disclose the start and stop times of sewage discharges. In July, it wrote to water companies to encourage them to proactively publish information on sewage monthly. In October, it published a practice recommendation to United Utilities to address the specific issues that it had identified.

I turn to Amendment 89, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning. The Government acknowledge that it is important that there is more transparency about the abstraction of water by water companies. However, any new requirements must be both practical and proportionate. Clause 7 already provides the necessary flexibility for the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to impose conditions or general rules for abstraction licences. We believe that secondary legislation is the more appropriate vehicle to address these technical matters effectively. However, having listened to the noble Baroness carefully, we will consult on the use of Clause 7 powers to ensure that the conditions introduced are appropriate and achievable.

Finally—I am sure we all want our dinner—I turn to Amendment 94, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. I am supportive of greater involvement of the public in this sector. He made the very important point that bringing in the public is vital, including through citizen science. However, this amendment is not needed, as we believe that the provisions in the Bill will already increase transparency and the provision of data in this sector, which are critical to informing and engaging the public going forward.

I hope that I have set out sufficient detail on Clause 3 to reassure all noble Lords of its intended purpose and effect. I sent out a fact sheet on the definition of emergency overflows and storm overflows to try to make sure that everybody is clear on the difference, but I am sure that we will come back to these issues in future. I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments and enjoy their dinner break.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her detailed response; that was a lot of amendments to respond to in one go.

I take the point about volumetric flow monitoring. I will go away and think about that but I am aware that there might have been costs associated with it. It is welcome that that has been confirmed.

I take the point also about a number of amendments on the website, access to data and one data point. I hear what the Government say—that one does not want to pin that down, limit it and find that what is written in the Bill is yesterday’s technology, or that there are other, better ways of making sure that it is accessible. I welcome the response there as well.

I also welcome the response of the Minister about the plans of the Government to publish live maps in one place. That seems sensible.

In relation to my amendment on citizen science, I welcome what the Minister said. Let us go away, think about it and explore it. I am pleased that the Government acknowledge the importance of that matter, the work that has been done and the work going forward.

This has been an interesting group of amendments. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, for what she said, and the Minister’s response on the emerging threats was important. I am particularly concerned about microplastics because we do not know what those are doing. They are in our brains and various parts of our body where they should not be. I encourage the Government, outside the Bill, to do more research and work on that.

I thank also the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, for his interesting comments on telemetry monitoring, and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for his contribution.

This was an interesting debate. I am getting in the way of everyone’s dinner, so I thank noble Lords. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Independent Water Commission

Debate between Earl Russell and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register and thank the Minister for this Statement updating the House on the launch of the independent water commission. There is much that we on these Benches welcome, most importantly that this Government, through the Water (Special Measures) Bill presently being considered by this House and the launch of the water commission, have given a clear signal that they are determined to try to fix our broken water system. The intent is a welcome step change, and I am thankful for it.

That said, there is a time for reviews and commissions and a time for calm, direct and decisive government action to fix systems that have been broken for far too long. The Government talk proudly about their longer-term approach, when the electorate is keen for more radical and immediate action. My friendly warning to the Labour Government is that the people who voted for them did so with the expectation that real action would be taken to resolve this mess, at scale and at pace. Labour has had many years in opposition; quite frankly, we expected the Government to be better prepared and to have come up with the necessary plans and answers by now that are urgently needed to fix these problems.

The water industry is a mess, and the sewage scandal was a critical issue at the last general election. The Liberal Democrats are determined to put the protection of our precious natural environment at the heart of everything we do. In 2023, water companies dumped 54% more sewage into our lakes, rivers and coastal areas than they did in the previous year. This amounts to 464,000 incidents and 3.6 million hours of untreated sewage discharges in England alone, damaging our freshwater ecosystems. Meanwhile, water bills are set to rise by some 40%. We are clear that we would abolish Ofwat, create a new, unified and far more powerful clean water authority and replace the failed private water companies with public benefit companies.

The Government have taken a different policy direction. My worry is that the magic trick of making Ofwat fit for purpose, securing investment while keeping consumer water bills low and protecting our environment lies way beyond the measures contained in the Water (Special Measures) Bill and that, when further legislation finally arrives, it will be too late. I welcome the Minister’s engagement, but I call on the Government to work with all sides to make the measures in the Water (Special Measures) Bill more radical and robust. Our environment cannot wait while Labour decides on the real systemic reforms that are the only solutions to this crisis.

Only 14% of our rivers and streams are in good ecological health. With the commission taking at least a year to consider evidence and report back to government, and with further legislation only then to be prepared and debated in Parliament, the radical change required appears unlikely to be implemented before 2028-29 at the earliest. I hope that the Minister can acknowledge a growing sense of concern on all sides of the House that the measures in the Water (Special Measures) Bill are not enough to fix the problem and that further legislation derived from the conclusions of the water commission will just not arrive in the urgent timescales required.

The 30% by 2030 target for protection of nature is coming up urgently. How will this review help support that process? My understanding is that the water review will not report until 2025, which leaves a short timeframe for making the necessary changes and requirements to meet our targets. Further, if we find after the Water (Special Measures) Bill is passed that problems in the water industry persist and we are still in the gap before the water commission finishes its work and is ready, are the Government prepared to put forward additional urgent legislation to help fix any remaining problems?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Baroness Hayman of Ullock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their questions on the Statement made in the other place recently. Both noble Lords mentioned the fact that we had been in Opposition for 14 years— I would suggest that is probably one of the reasons why the water industry is in such a mess. It is a little bit rich of the Opposition to say that we should have sorted it out when we were in Opposition.

In answer to a few questions, the review will be reporting in the first half of next year. It is not that long until next year; it is only a few months away. The idea is that the review will develop new legislation that will make water companies and our water infrastructure fit for purpose for the future.

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for his broad support. He talked about urgency. It is important to point out that we came into government at the beginning of July. On 11 July, my honourable friend the Secretary of State made a Statement to the House on the agreement he had already reached with water companies and Ofwat to ring-fence money earmarked for investment so it could not be diverted to shareholder payments. On 9 September, we introduced the Water (Special Measures) Bill that we are considering in the House. Yesterday, the review was announced—so we are pretty well cracking on with this as an urgent action going forward.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl Russell and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Committee stage
Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, clearly, public trust in the water sector has been severely damaged and the number of serious pollution incidents is increasing, as we heard very clearly from my noble friend Lord Sikka when he introduced his amendments. At the same time, companies have been paying out millions in bonuses. To rebuild public trust, the Bill enables Ofwat to issue new rules on remuneration and governance to ensure that companies and executives are subject to robust oversight and held accountable for failure. I thank the noble Lords who have tabled amendments relating to the application of these rules.

I will start with Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for introducing it on the noble Baroness’s behalf and wish her all the best from these Benches. I also listened with interest to the suggestions made by the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington. Clearly, he and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, had different opinions on the wording. Our approach is intended to strike a balance between the approaches suggested by the noble Lords, to give Ofwat some flexibility while ensuring that it issues rules in relation to our priority areas.

However, I emphasise that the provisions in the Bill state that Ofwat must exercise its power to set rules in relation to performance-related pay, fitness and propriety, and customer representation. Ofwat may also make rules about other remuneration and governance arrangements at its discretion, but it must take action regarding the specific matters referred to in the Bill. We are pleased that Ofwat is already taking action to implement these rules through the publication of its consultation announced on 22 October. This was referred to by number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Remnant. I hope the noble Earl will tell the noble Baroness that we hope that this has reassured her that her amendment is unnecessary.

I turn to Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Remnant. Ofwat has a range of primary duties, including acting to protect the interests of consumers, ensuring that companies properly carry out their functions, and securing that companies are able to finance the delivery of their statutory obligations. I assure the noble Lord that Defra has worked to assure agreement with companies to update their articles of association to place customers and the environment at the heart of business decisions which impact on consumers.

The noble Lord is correct that I am going to say that Ofwat’s existing duties are already consistent with the outcomes that this amendment aims to ensure. This includes ensuring due consideration of the human and capital needs of the sector. He also raised concerns about influencing Ofwat. The current consultation that I have referred to is an initial policy consultation which has been launched with the express purpose of inviting views early. This will be followed up with further statutory consultations, which will also take into account the views shared through this initial policy consultation.

I thank the noble Lord for bringing his knowledge and experience to the development of this legislation. It is very valuable to hear his contributions. However, I hope that he is reassured that, in setting the rules about remuneration and governance, Ofwat will continue to act in accordance with its core duties and understands that it is for this reason that the Government will not accept the amendment.

Amendment 25, tabled by my noble friend Lord Sikka, and Amendment 27, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, relate to the timing and process for setting the rules for remuneration and governance. My noble friend took the opportunity to lay out clearly the many concerns around the behaviour of water companies and the ability of regulators to hold them to account. Ofwat is required to undertake statutory consultation with the relevant persons, which includes the Secretary of State, before any rules are finalised. Allowing Ofwat to set rules in this way, rather than through legislation, will enable those standards to be more easily amended, subject to the relevant procedural requirements, where it is appropriate to do so in the future. The Government and Ofwat agree that the rules should be in place as soon as possible after Royal Assent, and Ofwat intends to implement them following its statutory consultation, which, as I previously mentioned, has already been launched. I hope the noble Lords are therefore reassured their amendments are not necessary.

Finally, Amendment 101, tabled by my noble friend Lord Sikka, relates to dividend payments. Sustained investment in the water industry will continue only if the shareholders of companies can expect a fair return. Ofwat already has the power to stop the payment of dividends if they would risk the company’s financial resilience and to take enforcement action if companies do not link dividends to performance for consumers and the environment. The amendment risks deterring much needed investment in the sector. I highlight that the Government’s new independent water commission will look at how we can improve the regulatory framework to attract investment and support financial resilience for water companies. I hope this is helpful in explaining to my noble friend why the Government will not accept his amendment.

A few noble Lords talked about the importance of investor confidence and the impact that we could have on this and talent in the water industry. While we believe it is right that companies and their executives are held to account for basic and fundamental performance requirements, it is important that, should companies meet their performance expectations, executives can still be rewarded. The proposed £88 billion in investment under PR24 is the largest ever in the water sector and has the potential to create up to 30,000 new jobs. It is crucial that the sector can recruit the talent it needs to deliver the PR24 proposals, because improving the performance of the water industry will help the industry attract and retain talent. Private sector investment is also at the core of how we grow the economy, and the Bill is designed to deliver a clear and consistent regulatory framework for the water industry and its investors. Noble Lords may be interested to know that on 10 September Defra and Treasury Ministers held a round table with investors where they outlined how the Government will work in partnership to attract the billions of pounds in private sector investment that are desperately needed if we are going to clean up Britain’s rivers, lakes and seas.

Finally, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, that I always try to get on well and work constructively with everybody, including Ofwat. I once again thank the noble Lords for their suggestions and input to this discussion on the general application of the rules for remuneration and governance.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her comments. The noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, put forward an interesting idea on issuing guidance, and it is one that I will take back to my noble friend for further consideration. The noble Lord, Lord Remnant, talked about the lack of ability to scrutinise the rules, the need to attract talent and the carrot and stick approach. The noble Lord, Lord Sikka, talked about broken trust, the poverty of regulations and the level of convictions in the water industry. His Amendment 101 would curb excessive dividends, financial engineering practices and practices inflating the worth of companies. The noble Lord, Lord Roborough, n his amendment said that rules must be published within six months and he talked about the powers of Ofwat being unchecked.