Renters’ Rights Bill

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Lord Thurlow

Wednesday 14th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

I will make just a couple of comments on the two amendments tabled by my noble colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Best. I start with Amendment 220 and the point made in support of it by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, because what is proposed here is clearly, in effect, a public register. I was not absolutely sure that I understood whether that was delimited in certain ways by the reference to “other interested stakeholders”, whoever or whatever they might be in any given circumstance, but a public register is what we are dealing with.

If I may, I link this across to the next group of amendments, because it is appropriate to mention here that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, has Amendment 222, which has an extensive list of requirements. I simply say that some of what she sets out there might need a rethink as to whether it is appropriate for that degree of detailed information to be on a public register, bearing in mind who else may have access to it and for what purposes.

I have a question on Amendment 225. I absolutely agree with the functionality point, and I add to that by saying that there must absolutely be an email communications option in any database of this sort. Given the state of the normal, regular postal service, having an email option and being able to flag up an alert system of some sort would be absolutely essential for any landlord, their agent or, for that matter, any renter using the database.

My question is to do with the way the database is applicable to local authority schemes. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, confirmed what I believed to be the case: namely, that local authority schemes might vary considerably. If we have a national database, I simply ask how that deals with strictly local things on a per local authority basis. The rules of the game must obviously apply nationally, but the property concerned, the landlord and the renter in particular may be local. I simply flag up how that will function or whether there will be a subsidiary local authority subset on a per local authority basis.

If we have approach, and given the amount of data that the noble Baroness’s later amendment suggests, then, in terms of the amendments previously spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, I suggest that we are looking at quite a considerable lead-in period in practical terms to get this database in place. If it is to be of use, it needs to start off as some sort of cut-down version in order to enable the essential information to be there, even if it is then expanded. I therefore see this being achievable by some sort of rollout over time. Trying to put it in place from day one would be a recipe for something approaching chaos.

[Lord Thurlow (CB)]

My Lords, I will briefly comment on two amendments in this group: Amendment 233 in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Bybrook, and the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, and Amendment 243 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, about databases. I feel that we are overlooking the need to ensure that the rogues in the system are identified and banned or punished for bad behaviour. They riddle the rented sector, I am afraid.

The database is a great attempt to give transparency and clarity to mortgagees, as in one of these amendments, to tenants and to potential tenants to check on their potential landlords. It is not responsible landlords who are the problem; it is the rogues. Rogues like to be invisible. They do not want to be detectable. They certainly do not want enforcement proceedings served against them. Enforcement must have teeth. Without real teeth, there is little point in trying to catch the rogues. The database would go a long way towards achieving that, but I fear that there is not enough determination in the Government to really punish those who are determined to cheat.

Rogues can hide their properties under the names of shelf companies. They can be registered abroad. They can have a tangled web of subsidiaries and further subsidiaries. They will make themselves as invisible and undetectable as possible. I close by simply saying that these are good amendments, but I would love to see sharper teeth in the enforceability.

Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Lord Thurlow

Committee stage
Monday 24th February 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Thurlow (CB)]

My Lords, after my practice run, for which I apologise, I rise to address this second group. Conveniently, it consists of three amendments, all in my name. Before doing so, I should mention that I was formerly a chartered surveyor and spent several decades working in the realms of commercial property. This included a certain amount of rating, so I have considerable experience. I also beg the Committee’s leave inasmuch as I was unable to take part at Second Reading, but I have read Hansard and spoken to colleagues.

The purpose of Amendments 2 and 4—the latter is consequential on the former—is to remove the power to introduce higher multipliers for the more valuable RHL properties on the valuation list. There is a fundamental flaw in the Government’s proposal to pay for the reduced multiplier, hereditament or—I cannot remember what it used to be called—poundage by taxing the larger organisations. To understand this, we must look for a moment at what characterises a successful high street and distinguishes it from one that withers and fades. Although a high street that has withered will continue trading, it will have lost its heart as a retail centre and lost the social cohesion that it provides to the community. There is a gradual decline in the presence of national multiples, which are the key to high streets’ economic health.

A key presence in a successful high street are the anchor retailers, as we have heard. These may be department stores—though, sadly, few remain—other large retailers, such as Marks & Spencer, or possibly a leisure centre. Importantly, nowadays, it may also be a large supermarket. Most larger towns now have a town centre shopping scheme, of course. These are developments that have been carried out behind the retail frontage, usually, but with one or two shopping units providing access to the prime section of that high street. They are anchored by a large retailing presence: the department store or the supermarket in the shopping centre. They also frequently have the advantage of providing car parking and bus station services to the high street, which are particularly important these days with traffic restrictions and general congestion.

It is important to understand that anchor retailers are the lifeblood of our high streets, many of which are pedestrianised to improve the experience and safety of pedestrian traffic. The proposal to charge the larger retailers or RHL traders premium rates will cause yet more of these anchors to close down. This will structurally destabilise the complementary nature of a balanced retail offer. These anchors, including supermarkets, are already under extreme financial pressure.

It is no accident that the large department stores are fast disappearing from our high streets. To ask the higher NDR companies to pay this extra tax is punishment in the extreme. British Home Stores has gone, as has Binns in the north-east. C&A, which many of us will remember, is a good example of another that was forced to close by its parent because it could not afford all the costs, yet it trades healthily and thrives across continental Europe and in other countries around the world. It closed in this country because it could not afford to trade any longer; there was nothing wrong with its product.

Ironically, the only retailers that can afford the high street costs are the mail order giants, and the Government know who they are. Yet we must tread carefully in taxing the fulfilment centres, which are linked to the remaining high street operators and which, by managing to operate away from the high street, can control their costs and keep operating. They are a very different category from the Amazon generic, if I may use that phrase, which the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Bybrook, already mentioned.

Amendment 45 probes the wisdom of asking the large ratepayers—£500,000-plus is proposed—to subsidise the RHL discount for smaller traders. As already mentioned, the sweeping and inclusive size-related premium will impact many high street retailers attempting to stay afloat by resourcing their mail order businesses elsewhere. They are not the Amazon generic. Asking the larger retailers to subsidise the smaller ones is robbing Peter to pay Paul. The unintended consequence is that the larger retailers will find it harder to continue. It will be another financial burden for them to bear, and it is too much. High street shops will then close to save costs, impacting in turn the economic health of the town.

The key to all this is to separate the fulfilment centres operating behind the scenes of the high street retailers—the big organisations—from the Amazon generic. Dealing with this is complicated and difficult, and it is a matter of definitions. The solution is to ask the experts. There has been consultation on the Bill, but there has been no impact study of this aspect. There needs to be a simple invitation to the experts in the field—the Rating Surveyors’ Association, the RICS and one or two others—whose profession is focused on these subjects, to come up with proposals, ideas and suggestions that can then be refined and considered as a satisfactory solution to funding the discount that the small RHL players will enjoy. Amendment 45 addresses that funding problem. It should not be the highest ratepayers; they suffer enough. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Thurlow for introducing this point. I support the general thrust of what he said, although I do not see any great likelihood that this will move the government position at all.