Grenfell Tower Inquiry: Phase 2 Report

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Lord Khan of Burnley

Thursday 27th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, as always, makes a very important point. We are working on the response to Sir Martin’s report. We accept the inquiry’s findings and will address all the recommendations. I will take that suggestion away and we will have conversations to ensure that we deal with the recommendations and work through all of them. We will explore the opportunity for noble Lords, if not here then in another setting, to have an opportunity to listen to Sir Martin’s recommendations and how the Government are doing.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the report from Sir Martin Moore-Bick and the Government’s Statement, but there is a legacy issue from what was put in place by the previous Government in terms of support measures for a defined range of properties considered most at risk following the tragedy. In light of the measures put in place concerning remediation under PAS 9980, which is the relevant standard, can the Minister explain what steps are now proposed to prevent that proportionate approach—bearing in mind there is an issue between critical life safety on the one hand and the safety of the building on the other hand? Those are two different risks. What does he propose to prevent that proportionate standard? There is also the issue of the lack of the Building Safety Regulator powers in relation to avoiding full remediation responsibilities where building regulation standards at the time of construction had not been met. The problem is continuing to impede remediation and to trap innocent homeowners with high insurance costs. I wonder if he could comment on that. He may need to write to me.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I kindly accept the invitation to write to the noble Earl, due to the specific nature of the very important question he raised.

Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Lord Khan of Burnley

Committee stage
Monday 24th February 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

Yes, that is right.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

I have just looked up the Royal Albert Hall. It has a £1.9 million rateable value.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl very much for that clarification, but if he looks at my remarks later, he will see that I said that we do not expect “many”—not any—grass-roots music venues to fall above the £500,000 threshold. As I said, although we do not hold data specifically on music venues, we know, for example, that pubs, which often play an important role in the grass-roots music scene, have an average rateable value of only £16,800.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, asked how the lower multipliers will affect vacant property. The Bill allows for the lower multipliers to apply to vacant RHL properties. I assure the noble Earl that we intend to apply these new multipliers to occupied properties in the same way as we do to vacant properties. That will be consistent.

The noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, touched on the important point of why an impact assessment has not been prepared. Let me be absolutely clear and repeat my previous points on this: policies and legislation concerning tax and the administration of tax fall outside the meaning of regulatory provisions and are therefore not required to be accompanied by an impact assessment. However, His Majesty’s Treasury committed to publishing an analysis of the new multipliers at the Budget.

A further set of amendments seeks to expand the set of properties eligible for the lower multipliers. This includes widening the lower multipliers to manufacturing properties. I repeat this for the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, who raised this in particular: a further set of amendments seeks to expand the set of properties eligible for the lower multipliers. This includes widening the lower multipliers to manufacturing properties and, more generally, a power to widen the lower multipliers to other sectors.

I acknowledge the intention of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, to provide greater flexibility within the Bill, should it be deemed appropriate, in future, to apply the lower multipliers to other types of property. However, the Government were clear at the Budget that the intention is for the permanently lower tax rates to apply to qualifying RHL properties from 2026-27, ending the uncertainty of RHL relief that has been extended year on year. This has been an ad hoc system, and year on year is not the most effective way for businesses to plan.

Building Safety Bill

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Lord Khan of Burnley

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I should perhaps explain that, while I am a RICS member and fellow and a registered valuer, I do not actually deal with this particular thing. But, as a valuer, I understand constructs of risk and the attitude of lenders, because they so often dictate the process that is put in place by the valuers: they often set the fee for valuation and their form is used for this particular process. I say again that it is very difficult for a professional institution that tries to weigh up all these different bodies to get away from the big beasts of the mortgage lenders and the insurance world when it is dealing with this sort of thing. But I make no apology for that—there have been problems, and the noble Baroness is absolutely right that they have been visited, as she would say, on wholly innocent leaseholders. It is right that the whole thing should be kept under constant review.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to Amendment 132 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. It is a little but very important amendment and, as the noble Baroness will appreciate, “Every little helps” in making sure we get this right. I admire what the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, who spoke with great expertise, said about ending the confusion and providing clarity. That was a very important point. As a Lancastrian, I have never agreed with somebody from Yorkshire as much as I have agreed with the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, during the course of this Bill. She is quite right: leaseholders should not bear the costs for issues they have no control over. It is not their fault. We need to end the logjam.

This is my final contribution in Committee. It has been a fascinating debate. I have a special message for the Minister in Latin, to continue the theme: “Da operam, si potes”, or “You can do it, if you try hard”. We have debated a lot of fantastic amendments during this Committee. I am sure the Minister can do it and make this landmark Bill even better, to help people, residents and leaseholders across the whole country.