Building Safety Bill

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, as I was saying, the Committee will know that there has been a serious problem aggravating the difficulties that leaseholders have experienced in the post-Grenfell world. This is because insurance companies and mortgage lenders have required these external wall assessments to be made and the dreaded EWS1 forms to be filled in before transactions can proceed. However, not only are the assessments expensive—or they were—but the requirement to provide them implies, or implied, a very cautious view of the needs of fire safety in particular. Worst of all, there has been a crippling shortage of RICS professionals to carry them out.

I argued during the passage of the Fire Safety Bill that this process was over the top, as sometimes happens with professional-based regulation, and increased the numbers of unsaleable properties post Grenfell by hundreds of thousands. I was therefore delighted to hear the Valentine’s Day announcement of the Secretary of State, Michael Gove—in addition to the January comments quoted earlier by my noble friend the Minister —stating that:

“The provisions will protect leaseholders and encourage a more proportionate approach to fixing buildings. Currently, building owners can simply pass all costs on to leaseholders, with no incentive to hold back on unnecessary remediation work that has brought misery to leaseholders. Today’s package, alongside the duties in the wider Bill, will create an environment for tough, proportionate action on critical safety issues while preventing cost inflation and excessive work.”


“Today’s package” sounds good to me. However, I remain a little sceptical, knowing just how bad the gold-plating has been. For example, we were right to agree earlier on the need to be proportionate about balconies, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, argued.

The purpose of this probing amendment is to invite my noble friend, who is of course the Minister at the Department for Levelling Up, to update us and agree to undertake a review of the situation in 12 months’ time. The review proposed would focus on the tall buildings that are in scope, but the whole sector would benefit from a review that assesses the position of smaller buildings as well as the interests of the consumer rather than just the surveyor—in this case, the leaseholders and property owners affected. I add that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans asked me to say that he supports this amendment but had to be elsewhere. I very much hope that my noble friend will look sympathetically on this request, particularly given the helpful change of approach by the Secretary of State.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I will probably disappoint the noble Baroness a little, but I hope that I can also give a bit of explanation. I say that with particular feeling because she chairs the Built Environment Committee, on which I have the privilege to serve.

I understand the irritation that has been generated in some quarters by the EWS1 scheme. I ask the Committee to bear in mind that this was prepared as something of an emergency measure to deal with the logjam of unmortgageable, and therefore unsellable, properties. It was set up at the instigation of government and occurred following discussion with insurers, lenders and valuation professionals. It is a creature of common creation and not the RICS alone, although the RICS put it out. That is quite important.

The unfortunate thing is that, as it was the only form of certification around, it has been latched on to in certain quarters as providing some reassurance for things that it was never intended to achieve. In other words, it was seen as something with a wider fitness for purpose than was ever intended, and that is part of the problem.

When one produces something of this sort, it is produced in collaboration with others, but there will always be people across the spectrum; the insurance world is such that certain sectors of it will top-slice the risk. There will always be some that—a bit like some of what I might call the more adventurous motor insurers—will insure only certain clearly de-risked parts of the market in risk generally. I do not know whether that is a problem here.

This EWS1 was just reviewed in December. The RICS—again in consultation, and again, I believe, with support and collaboration from government but certainly with all the relevant bodies—decided that even though its application in terms of the problems that it created was reduced to a very small proportion, it should be kept because that was the view of valuers, mortgage lenders and insurers. The RICS as a professional body cannot ignore what these people are saying or the commercial pressures that are set before it in dealing with that. The RICS also published its justification in December, which is available on the web. I am all for de-risking things so that assessments of all sorts do not grow horns and a tail. However, I am not sure that having the Government take control and ownership of this particular matter would necessarily reassure lenders or professionals or, for that matter, benefit the market sentiment.

In its evidence to the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee, the RICS acting chief executive made it clear that there is already a process in hand to train up a cohort of fire risk assessors pursuant to the Bill’s objectives. EWS1 itself is probably destined to wither on the vine in a relatively short period of time. I therefore hope that I have given some sort of helpful explanation of why I am not sure that it is a good thing for the Government to take on this thing, even if they felt that they were willing to get their fingers involved in that particular pie, and why it is probably best that the matter continues on the critical path it is now and we see the outcome of this cohort of newly trained people. I am sure that other professional bodies will need to do training as well; we must try to make sure that it is rolled out as speedily as possible so that, hopefully, the problems will be put behind us.

Enterprise Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his amendment, and, in particular, for his words and the work that he has done in this very complex area. Having said that, some very critical comments have been made this evening which seem unfair. I will, therefore, take time to go objectively through the amendments and respond where I am able to do so.

The experience of the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, underlined to me the urgent need for reform. That is why we brought forward provisions in the Bill, the consultation and the modernisation and improvement plan for the agency. I will look into the point that the noble Lord made, on which I am not briefed, about the fact that the backlog seems to be increasing and cases are not being dealt with—but I am not able to answer that this evening.

Amendment 64 would allow the Valuation Office Agency to share HMRC information with ratepayers. Members of my team greatly appreciated the meeting noble Lords held with them to discuss these issues. A subsequent meeting has now been held with ratings agents and further meetings with businesses will follow. I understand that our proposals to address the high volume of ineffective appeals and delays under the current system have been recognised as worthwhile, not least in speeding up any refunds. We will continue to work with businesses to ensure that the new system is practical, workable and beneficial.

As the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, said, we have been running a parallel consultation on implementation, in which we set out a clear and structured three-stage process. The consultation is still open and I am sure that the bodies mentioned this evening will respond. The reforms promote full and early engagement between parties. Factual information will be established during check stage, with arguments and evidence exchanged at the beginning of the second challenge stage—far earlier than happens at present. This significantly brings forward the point at which the Valuation Office Agency is able to provide information to address the ratepayer’s case.

Business rates are a unique tax which require the collection and holding of commercially sensitive information. This can include details of market deals such as rent-free periods or the treatment of fit-out costs—information that the landlords and tenants in question may well not wish to make available to their competitors. I note the concern about the Valuation Office Agency but we should abstract from that to some extent because it has a duty to protect information and the interests of the ratepayers must be taken into account. That is a fundamental principle of data protection and to override it and allow routine sharing of confidential information would undermine the basis of trust on which the system depends.

Amendment 66 allows the Secretary of State to regulate the operation of several aspects of the appeals system. I share many of noble Lords’ aims: to support small business, of course; to see high performance standards in the appeals system, which is obviously not fit for purpose at present; and to ensure that decisions are made quickly. I have some good news today for small businesses in that the spending review extended the doubling of small business rate relief for a further year. Given the discussions, particularly in Committee, noble Lords will also be pleased to hear that the Valuation Office Agency will now prioritise small businesses within the appeals system. Of course, the majority of rates are paid by larger businesses and they bring the most appeals, but I think we all agree that the small business interest is extremely important.

Performance is more appropriately addressed by a service-level agreement than in the Bill, and that is what we proposed in the consultation. The requirement for parties at every stage to provide specified information in a structured way will ensure that the Valuation Tribunal for England is able to deal with cases in a quicker and more efficient way. However, it would not be appropriate for Parliament to prescribe the operation of an independent judicial body, which is what would happen with the amendment.

The Government agree that ratepayers should be able to move on to appeal stage if no decision is forthcoming at challenge stage. The proposal for trigger points in the consultation paper will provide that right. The 18-month figure in the consultation paper is obviously longer than the six-month figure proposed by noble Lords. However, we have made a commitment to reduce that figure as the system develops and beds in.

Amendment 67 would remove the power to introduce the payment of fees at appeal stage. This is a fundamental part of our reforms, because it will increase the incentives for early and full engagement in the first two phases. It will promote quicker decisions and reduce costs for businesses, as well as helping to reduce the large number of speculative appeals, which I do not think anyone has mentioned but which clog up the system for everyone else. We need to get away from that.

In the three-stage process, there are no charges at check or challenge stage, where it is our expectation that the majority of cases will be resolved. We are also proposing that appeal fees will be refunded where appeals are successful. Discussions on these important matters will continue as part of the consultation process. The consultation closes on 4 January, and we will consult further next year on the draft regulations.

The Government are not, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, implies, clamping down on taxpayer information. These measures introduce earlier information exchange and will help the ratepayer. The new system enables businesses to make the judgment on the basis of information provided at stage 2, before launching an appeal, which is stage 3. So the Bill addresses the information deficit, which I think is of mutual concern.

Finally, Amendment 65 changes Clause 22 to protect taxpayers’ information. Identifiable taxpayer information which is held by the Valuation Office Agency is exempt from FOI requests, but that exemption does not extend to information shared with local government under Clause 22. Therefore, as the clause stands, identifiable taxpayer information could become exposed to disclosure under FOI. The amendment will exempt from FOI anything shared under the clause which would identify the ratepayer; it will not exempt any other information from FOI and will merely ensure that taxpayer confidentiality is maintained. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, that the amendment, far from restricting the flow of information, is key to enabling the safe transmission by giving the agency the confidence and security to share data without risk under FOI.

It has been a long debate and it is late. I commend Amendment 65 to the House and ask the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Lytton]

I thank very much those noble Lords who have supported this amendment, and the Minister for her thoughtful comments. I particularly took to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, which were elegant, to the point and delivered much more effectively than I could ever have done.

I make one point on the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, on the check, challenge and appeal process, which relies entirely on resources being available at the check stage. I, too, had heard the point about resources being withdrawn from appeal handling until, I think, the 2017 revaluation is out of the way. So there is an ongoing structural problem. On that point, the Minister did not answer the question that I put about at what level disclosure would take place. If, under the check, challenge and appeal process, the disclosure does not appear at the check stage, we are precisely back where we are at the moment.

There are two other things. With regard to what the Minister said about HMRC information being disclosed, the label “HMRC information” in this context is by proxy only because this is information that has always been dealt with as a Valuation Office Agency matter under the relevant legislation. It is about the valuation officer role rather than the person concerned with general taxation, the district valuer. There is a very important difference—which was pointed out in the Holgate opinion, which I have circulated—between the two. There is a morphing into HMRC information under that label which should not be used. It is mislabelling where that information comes from, the purposes for which it is compiled and the route by which it comes.

My final point is on confidentiality. Why would a lessor or business want to keep its rental information confidential? Given what is known and the leakage through the system, that would be a tough call in this country. We are not dealing with the sort of closed shop that applies in many other jurisdictions. However, I can think of some very good reasons why a confidentiality clause might be included, for instance, where a letting is procured ostensibly at a headline rent but is actually underpinned by a three-year rent-free period in a five-year review cycle. Of course, someone would not want that to be bandied about. If the Valuation Office Agency could be counted on to sift that out, so that there was absolutely no question of the integrity of the body in analysing that and it was a true reflection of what that rent was in real terms, as opposed to just the headline rent, I do not think we would have any problem. However, it cannot be. I know that from direct experience.

It is unfortunate that this very important point of principle occurs so late when there are not so many people in the House let alone in the Chamber. It would clearly be wrong even to consider pressing this amendment in the circumstances. Had it been in any other circumstances, I would have been sorely tempted to test the opinion of the House, but now is not the time or the circumstances to do that. It is with great reluctance that I withdraw this amendment because from having spoken with the clerks I am not at all clear that it will be possible to bring it back at a later stage. If it is not possible, we will have to rely on the good offices of the other place in order to raise this and, I hope, do it.

I will end on one thing. We stand in all this in terms of what we are doing to foster business in the construct of an Enterprise Bill, and we should never forget that mission. As the noble Lords, Lord Mendelsohn and Lord Stoneham, said, this runs entirely in the wrong direction. It is the wrong question and you get the wrong answer. It is a false premise. It is a reductio ad absurdum in terms of where we are. That has to be addressed. It is clear that this is an area of tax that is long overdue for fundamental, thoroughgoing reform. It is a failing of many Administrations over many years that it has not been dealt with. Businesses are the worse for it. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Consumer Rights Bill

Debate between Earl of Lytton and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Earl for his thoughtful and very clear contribution to the debate. I share his sympathy for the untimely death of Sir Sydney Chapman. I also agree that the vast majority of consumers and service providers are honest but, regrettably, there are some on both sides who would not meet that description.

Perhaps I may look at the three amendments by taking a step back. Clause 50 is the result of careful consideration, as I said. We have thought and listened hard, consulting on it and publishing it in the draft Bill. We have sought to achieve the delicate balance between giving consumers the right to have what they pay for and not overburdening traders. To do that, we have given consumers a clear statutory right: the right that information that they are given and which they take into account is complied with.

Crucially, there are three safeguards for traders. It may help if I set them out. First, this right does not cover every bit of information given to a consumer by a trader. It is limited to information that the consumer took into account when making a purchase or making a decision about it—for example, if a consumer contracted for a service specifically because the trader said it would be done in a certain way. Secondly, it would be for the consumer to prove that they took the information into account if seeking to enforce this right against the trader. Thirdly, we are allowing traders to qualify information given. The trader can qualify information as long as, where they do so after the occasion when it was first given, the consumer is happy with the new information. For example, if a salesperson gives information over the phone in good faith but later, as more details of the consumer’s circumstances emerge, they need to change it, then they can do so as long as the consumer agrees.

We think that those safeguards are enough to address concerns that noble Lords have mentioned. For example, we have heard concerns that sales advisers will have to speak strictly to a script. That will not be the case, because of the safeguards that I have just outlined. We are not restricting the trader’s ability to discuss options with the consumer or making them stick to jargon, in the words of the noble Earl. We are saying that when a trader gives information which the consumer may take into account in deciding whether to make a purchase or make a decision about it, the trader needs to comply with that information.

On spurious claims, we do not think that there is an assumption that consumers remember information. I know from my experience that you cannot assume that consumers remember information; one sometimes forgets things. That is not what the clause states. Clause 50 provides that where a trader has given information that the consumer has relied on, the trader must comply with that information. The consumer will need to prove that the information was given and that they relied on it. Those safeguards—that the burden of proof is on the consumer and that the consumer must have relied on the information—in my view protect traders from unreasonable claims. Unfortunately, some consumers will, as the noble Earl said, act unreasonably. They are not the vast majority. Most consumers of services simply want the service to be provided to the required standard, with access to redress if things go wrong. That is what this chapter provides.

Turning to Amendments 47 and 48, the safeguards that I have explained achieve a balance between traders and consumers. Adding a reasonableness test to the clause would, in our view, cause confusion and uncertainty. There are some places in legislation where reasonableness is an appropriate test. However, I fear that it would add complexity here, which would not benefit consumers or traders. When we consulted in 2012, the vast majority of respondents thought that the existing law on services was too complex.

That brings me to Amendment 49. As I explained a moment ago, we are allowing traders to make changes to information given. While subsection 2(a) allows the trader to qualify information on the occasion when he gives it, subsection 2(b) allows the trader to make changes at a later date if the consumer agrees to those changes. That achieves clarity for both parties, so we think it is an appropriate balance.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, also mentioned adjudication. We have already talked a lot about alternative dispute resolution in the debates on the Bill. ADR will be available in all sectors covered by the EU directive from next year. While I sympathise with much of what my noble friend has said, given the safeguards I have outlined, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

[The Earl of Lytton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that explanation. I will go away and think about it. The words about what the consumer takes into account when making a decision are pivotal. I would simply leave a question in the air: objectively, how would anyone know, other than the consumer himself? How would one test that? This is not the time to pursue this, even if we were not in Grand Committee. I will ponder what the Minister said and I may return to this at a later stage. I may well write to her with some more focused issues between now and the next stage, although I cannot guarantee that, for all sorts of reasons. That said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.