Homelessness Reduction Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 24th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as listed in the register as a property owner and as a vice-chair of the Local Government Association. I thank Mr Blackman for enabling the Bill to come to the House and for seizing the opportunity available to him in the Commons. I also thank my noble friend Lord Best for introducing the Bill and taking it through this place. As a former director of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and chair of a housing association, he obviously has so much experience in this area. His introduction today reminds me of how valuable this House is because of the depth of expertise of its Members in many areas.

I thank the Government for supporting the Bill today; in particular, for the £60 million in financial support and the review they have undertaken to carry out in the next two years to ensure that local authorities are not out of pocket as a result of the Bill. I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, for drawing attention to the fact that the Government are also funding to the tune of £40 million their work on rough sleepers. The noble Baroness gave a very vivid example of why this Bill is so important. One can become callous. One sees people on the streets, day after day and year after year, and can take it for granted. The noble Baroness highlighted the fact that we are the fifth-richest nation in the world, with one of the highest levels of employment, yet we cannot get this right. I found what she said very helpful.

In the referendum last year, I was disappointed by the decision that was taken. But one of the very positive things that came out of it is a growing recognition that large sections and areas of this nation have been left behind and forgotten. I am grateful to the Government for recognising this and for taking these steps to ensure that the forgotten—those who have been left behind—are properly taken into account and for introducing measures to ensure that their needs will be better met in future.

I am particularly grateful for the impact the Bill will have on young, disadvantaged people, who are perhaps managing without a family. Let me give the example of a young person I met in December of last year. The Drive Forward Foundation is a charity which works with care leavers to help them into professions. A number of its ambassadors came to Parliament to meet with me and to discuss their experiences. I was introduced to a young black woman in her early 20s, about five foot tall, who had a disability. She had secured an apprenticeship in a City firm, at great sacrifice to herself because of the complexities of how things work with housing benefit. For many care leavers there is a disincentive to enter work because, as long as one is on benefit, one is fine. However, as soon as one starts getting an income one’s housing benefit drops and one has to perhaps seek a new home—as she did—in order to be in employment. She just managed to meet her rent each week and was eking out a living in order to do this apprenticeship which was important to her.

She had to lie to her landlord because, as we have heard, more and more private landlords do not wish to accept people on housing benefit. She did not tell him that she was on housing benefit but he found out and decided that she must go. I had an e-mail about a week after we had met to say that this young woman was about to become homeless and asking if I could do anything to help. Thankfully, through her own resourcefulness, she found another room.

I was also told that, as she was a care leaver, her local authority owed her certain duties. Her local authority said, “Wait until the bailiffs arrive and then we will come and help”. Her situation highlights the importance of the early intervention that the Bill offers. The last thing this young woman needs is to have to worry about her accommodation. By enabling early intervention to help people through the transition, the Bill will be a great help to disadvantaged young women like her who are ambitious to make a good job of their lives.

I have another request for the Minister. It would also be helpful to young men and women in her position if the Government were to respond to the requests in the Crisis campaign to ensure that, first, there is a proper mortgage guarantee for people entering private landlord accommodation; and, secondly, that help-to-rent supports both the private tenant and the landlord to give them confidence that things will progress well. There should be a mortgage guarantee and support for the tenant and landlord so that it becomes more attractive for private landlords to take on tenants such as this young woman.

Perhaps the Minister will write to me outlining what progress has been made in responding to the Crisis campaign in this area. The noble Lord, Lord Best, has raised this matter in the past and I would be grateful if the Minister would write to me about it.

In closing, I say that I am grateful to Mr Blackman and my noble friend for bringing the Bill to this House and for the Government’s response. Listening today to broadcasts about the recent by-elections, I heard one woman say, when asked about her vote yesterday, “I feel forgotten. I do not think it matters which way I vote”. Another resident of Stoke-on-Trent said, “For 40 years nothing has been done here. I feel that no party has taken any interest in my area”. So I am therefore grateful that the Government are taking steps such as these to reach out to people who may have been left behind in the past. I wish the Bill a speedy journey to the statute book. I certainly will not seek to make any amendments to it.

Housing White Paper

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is right about the importance of the rurality factor. As somebody who used to represent a very rural area, I understand that. In the White Paper we reinforce the importance of rural housing exceptions. However, the point is a very good one and we will give proper weight to rural housing as the consultation—which, as I have indicated, ends on 2 May—goes forward. I hope people, institutions and local authorities will respond to it.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, as someone involved in commercial and residential development, I warmly welcome aspects of the White Paper, particularly the attention it gives to the private rented sector, its encouragement of institutional investors in that area and the way it addresses land bank issues, including reducing the window after planning permission from three to two years. These are very welcome. Will the Minister examine closely Crisis’s campaign and the comments of both the private rented landlords’ associations to ensure that more homeless people can access the private rented sector? I am particularly concerned about young disadvantaged people without family support. Support for that campaign, a mortgage guarantee scheme and for private landlords implementing the right to rent scheme would be very helpful to the Government’s endeavours.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that welcome, particularly in relation to the private rented sector, and for his comments on land banking. Crisis is a very valued partner. The point made about the importance of ensuring that the private rented sector frees itself up to the homeless much more than it has done previously is well made. As we take forward consultation on these areas, I hope that we can accommodate it.

Business Rates: Devolution

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right about there being an element of risk and volatility in the system. We are seeking to address both those points to ensure that we smooth the process. Risk from a single business on which a local authority was very dependent would perhaps create an issue and so would appeals, which, as the noble Lord indicated, can have an effect on cash flow. We are seeking to address both of those in discussions with local authorities. We also have a technical working group drawing on people from local authorities as well as from the DCLG and elsewhere to address the very issues that the noble Lord raises.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has said about looking at distribution to more disadvantaged areas. Given the recent report from the Social Mobility Commission highlighting blackspots of disadvantage across the country, will he look again at the funding of local authorities to see whether some money can be found to help them improve the life chances, the social mobility and the social opportunity of disadvantaged young people in their areas?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Earl is right to refer to redistribution, which is fundamental to the system because we are able to identify it very easily. Quite separate from that but something that he will know we are looking at is the issue of fair funding. We are consulting local government on that with a view to ensuring that new formulas are in place by the end of the Parliament to take account of the very issues of social mobility to which the noble Earl referred and to which the Prime Minister is of course very committed.

Homelessness

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right about the serious challenge that we face. Key to this, of course, is building more, and she will know that we are committed to that, with 400,000 affordable homes and a target of a million new homes in this Parliament. That is part of it, but I acknowledge the importance of working with charitable partners, which we are committed to doing and are doing, as I saw yesterday on a visit to Chelmsford.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, in eagerly awaiting the forthcoming Homelessness Reduction Bill, can I ask the Minister how many children are currently in bed and breakfast accommodation? Am I right in thinking that there has been a 15% rise in the number of families in bed and breakfast accommodation this year? Does he recognise the huge cost for local authorities and the public purse of placing such families in temporary accommodation? Surely we need to work with local authorities to help them build more homes for those they have a statutory duty to house.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Earl is right to draw attention to the challenge that we face. We are, of course, working with our partners to ensure that temporary accommodation is just that—although it is valuable to have a roof over the head. It has been brought down from a peak in 2006 and we are seeking to address it.

Living Home Standard

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I have referred to the £12 million that the Government have made available. I have looked at the evidence to see whether local authorities are making use of that in relation to raids and inspections, and they are. In addition, a database of rogue landlords will be brought in next year following the 2016 Act.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, in considering the White Paper, will the Minister keep to the forefront of his mind the importance to families of having stable, not overly crowded accommodation, bearing in mind the risk of family breakdown, of mothers and fathers separating, and the terrible impact that can have on their children?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right to stress the importance of that. Local authorities have existing powers under the Housing Act 2004 relating to the overcrowding of houses.

Housing

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grender (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port, for initiating this all-important debate and his eloquent summary of the current situation. I am registered as a vice-chair of the All-Party Group for the Private Rented Sector. I think we are all agreed on one thing: we would not start from here and 30 years of lack of housebuilding, in all mixes of tenure, has led us to this point.

At the end of this chain—on the front line—are homeless young people. Once a year, the charity Depaul UK, which works with vulnerable young homeless people, has a “CEO sleepout” to raise funds and awareness. On Monday night 200 of us, including some parliamentary colleagues, slept out. Just one night on a cold slab of concrete serves as a sharp reminder of where roughly 1.3 million young people have at some point ended up; namely, sleeping rough or in an unsafe place.

I recall lobbying both the Major and Blair Governments for the charity, Shelter, about the desperate need to solve supply at that time and even then having a limited impact. All Governments at some point have had within them great advocates for the need to promote supply, particularly of social housing, as the noble Lord, Lord Horam, has shown. But it is never enough.

In the coalition Government, the Help to Buy scheme, bringing empty homes back into use through the empty homes premium, increasing support for self-build and a small increase in the building of social housing were not enough. Even if we were to close down both Houses of Parliament—no, let us close down the whole of Westminster—trained everyone in the area, reskilled them in the skills now lost to the housebuilding industry and started to build in earnest, it would still take too long for the supply of homes to meet current need. As the LGA says, we need to build a minimum of 250,000 homes a year—in the Liberal Democrats, we believe that it should be 300,000. But last year, as the noble Lord has already explained, around 170,000 homes were built.

If we would not start from here, my question for this debate is: is the private rented sector now part of the solution? According to the Financial Times, No. 10 is starting to think that it may be. Now that 20% of the population is living in this sector, with a growing number of people renting throughout their adult lives, perhaps it is. However, our private rented sector in too many cases is simply not fit for purpose, for families or for young people.

Perhaps then this is a moment when this Government should take a long hard look at security in the private rented sector. There can be small but essential changes. My own Private Member’s Bill, to make provision for the rights of renters, will be in Committee in a fortnight—all are welcome to come along. There are two central proposals in it. First, if there is to be a database of rogue landlords, and we welcome that change in the Housing and Planning Act 2016, we believe that it should be open. If a landlord is designated as a rogue landlord under the new Act, a tenant should know that. Secondly, for too long, lettings agents have been able to double-dip into fees: they charge the tenant, who has no choice when it comes to who their letting agent is, having already made the difficult choice of a place to live and the landlord they will have. Instead, lettings agents should charge the landlords only. They are the party who can shop around and make the choice about which lettings agency to use. The law has been successfully changed in Scotland with little impact on either rents or the lettings agent sector.

Yesterday, I met a 41 year-old who has just started renting near Liverpool. He has paid £300 to a lettings agent for “admin fees”, with no transparency and no explanation of what it is for. He has also paid a deposit of just under £1,000. The flat is so damp that water is seeping up through the lino in the kitchen. So what is that £300 for? It is clearly not for checking whether the place was in good order in the first place.

People who rent are faced with significant up-front costs and often very short tenures, and they have to pay more fees and find large deposits every time they move. Young people in particular have to move often, especially in London. In England, the length of a let is always so short that they face those up-front costs again and again.

If the rented sector is part of the solution, or the stop-gap between here and the vision of housing in the future that I think many of us have, it is a market badly in need of reform. Shelter has published with YouGov a detailed survey of more than 3,000 private renters and a study of the differences in legal status of renters elsewhere in Europe. It is entitled Time for Reform: How our Neighbours with Mature Private Renting Markets Guarantee Stability for Renters. The findings are fascinating. I urge the Minister to read it and use it in the current DCLG working group that is looking, right now, at the private rented sector. The report explains that we are the nation with the least stable renting laws in Europe, the only exceptions being Switzerland and Portugal. In all other countries, including Poland, Slovakia and Greece, private renters are given greater security of tenure. Eighty million renters across the countries studied rent in markets where more than a year’s minimum security from eviction without grounds is the legal norm. Both Ireland and Scotland have recently introduced these changes.

We have heard the phrase “take back control” a lot over recent weeks—it is something of a mantra—but young people renting in this country have no or limited control. When the quality is poor, it affects relationships, plans to raise children, travel to work and health. It is time for a generation that has little choice but to rent to have much greater control over how they rent.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness with her long career in campaigning on homelessness and her detailed knowledge of the area. I too am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, for securing this timely and important debate—

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

If the noble Earl looks at the speakers list, he will find that he is next but one.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness for jumping the gun. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, for securing this important debate. It is important because it is young people who are most important to the future success of any society. I remind your Lordships of my interests in property, as noted in the register.

The noble Lord’s Motion emphasises the need to provide local housing to sustain communities. We are all becoming increasingly aware of the importance of sustaining relationships for the healthy development of children and young people. Continuity of relationship is the key to recovery from trauma for children and young people in care but it is vital for all our young people.

I hope I may thank the Minister for the priority that the Government have given to housing since the last election. We have had a housing Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Horam, talked about the forthcoming White Paper. The coalition Government legislated in the area of looked-after children for staying put—allowing many care leavers to stay with their foster carers or close to home up to the age of 21. The Government are looking now at staying close—allowing care leavers from children’s homes to remain close to those homes and the important relationships there. In the Children and Social Work Bill, currently being considered, we are looking to support all care leavers up to the age of 25. Between 80% and 90% of care leavers aged 18 to 21 are now described as being in satisfactory accommodation, and Ofsted has recently begun inspecting care leavers’ services. These are all most welcome changes.

I should like to concentrate on housing for young people in care, care leavers, foster carers and families in temporary accommodation. The lack of affordable or suitable housing for care leavers is an issue of grave concern. Over the years, many of those in care and leaving care have expressed these concerns to me and I am particularly grateful to Jordan Morgan, a care leaver who produced his own report on care leaver housing issues from his own experience and those of others. He kindly wrote to and met me recently. I am also grateful to the charity the Who Cares? Trust for its work on the housing of care leavers.

Care leavers are suffering from the lack of affordable housing. They are often forced to rent in the private sector. They are dependent on benefits and can often be in worrying rent arrears, which can become exacerbated by the cut to their housing benefit that occurs at age 22, as they move into the shared room rate. No parent wants to see their child homeless or unable to afford to live safely in the area that they call home. However, many care leavers, unable to benefit from staying put, are facing real challenges in accessing safe, secure and suitable housing. Care leavers are offered homes that they will not be able to afford if they stop receiving benefits and move into work, particularly in London. This leaves individuals either reliant on benefits or facing a move when they find employment, adding increased pressure at an already stressful time. Care leavers are three times more likely to face benefit sanctions then their peers and two-thirds less likely to challenge those sanctions—yet when they do, most sanctions are overturned. Many continue to pay council tax and, too often, face the bailiff for failure to pay.

The tools and resources for individuals moving off benefits and into work are not often available to young people from care. Faced with anything of up to six weeks before their first salary payment and signed off from benefits, some care leavers still have to turn down employment opportunities. There is no consistency across the country for care leavers’ access to local authority accommodation, with some care leavers qualifying for a priority banding only if they have additional vulnerabilities. Fixed-term tenancies can act as cliff edges, forcing young people to move on regularly—often into accommodation of ever-decreasing quality, as the price of rent increases beyond their income.

In their strategy for care leavers Keep on Caring, the Government made a variety of commitments to improve outcomes for care leavers, including experiencing stability and feeling safe and secure, as well as achieving financial stability. I would be grateful to know how the Minister’s department is working with other government departments to increase the amount of suitable housing stock that is available for care leavers to access and how it plans to tackle some of the problems outlined above. I would also welcome an update on what the Government are doing to ensure that homeless young people aged 16 and 17 receive appropriate support during the crucial years of transition to adulthood. Perhaps the Minister could write to me on these issues. I would be grateful if he might consider sharing my concerns with the noble Lord, Lord Nash, and the Minister of State, Edward Timpson.

The charity Fostering Network has significant concerns about the impact of housing shortages and benefit cuts on foster carers. Staying put—allowing young people to remain with their foster carer to the age of 21—is most welcome but it puts pressure on the sufficiency of foster placements. Furthermore, two-thirds of foster carers report facing reduced financial support for their staying put role, while a quarter say that they cannot afford to provide staying put because of that lack of support. Local authorities are unwilling to assess families for fostering if they are in insecure housing, as they increasingly are. By far the majority of foster families are on low incomes. Foster carers’ homes are often of an inadequate size; this is exacerbated by the bedroom tax. The housing shortage prevents their biological children from moving on, so they lack the capacity to foster. The empty nesters are in decline. It has become more difficult to place sibling groups with foster carers. It is often important to keep together brothers and sisters who have been taken into care. It was reported to me that one foster carer had to sleep on the sofa to accommodate the sibling group of five whom she had felt moved to keep together.

I turn to families in temporary accommodation and their children. I am very grateful to Shelter for its campaigning in this area and its report on families in emergency accommodation, published today. There are 120,000 homeless children in Britain, the highest level since 2007. The number of families in bed and breakfast accommodation is 18% higher than last year—nearly 20% higher. The report looks at 25 families in depth. They all live in a single room, more than half of the parents have to share a bed with their children, three-quarters have to share lavatories and bathrooms with others and two-thirds describe their rooms as being in disrepair.

One family I have been in touch with over the past year began in Southwark, moved to a refuge from domestic violence in Hackney, then to a one-bedroom for the mother, her 16 year-old daughter and one year-old granddaughter, then, following eviction, to a bed and breakfast single room. In that period, the mother’s worst fear was of being rehoused possibly as far afield as Manchester, where she would know no one. This is a common experience nowadays. Thankfully, it now appears that Hackney will provide for her.

I should finish. Does the Minister share my concern for these families? What does he have to say to the increase in the use of bed and breakfast accommodation? When does he envisage the number of children facing homelessness declining? Will he bring forward a cross-departmental strategy on homelessness, as the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government in the other place recommended on 31 August? I look forward to his response.

Homelessness

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend has put her finger on the nature of the problem. As I said, it is difficult to define hidden homelessness for the reasons that she just gave. Many people may be staying with friends or relations for six months, perhaps having come down from a village or town to London, before finding permanent accommodation, for example.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister deplore the fact that 100,000 children are living in homeless accommodation—temporary, insecure accommodation—in this country, the highest level since the early 2000s? When do the Government anticipate that the number of homeless children will begin to decline?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right: young people being homeless is a matter of concern. The Government have contributed a significant amount of money to the positive pathways framework—two-thirds of local authorities are benefiting from that—and £15 million has gone into the fair chance fund, helping 1,900 homeless young people with complex needs. Yes, there is a challenge; the Government are rising to it.

Wales Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

I do not favour votes at 16, so I would be hypocritical in the extreme if I said, “Yes, of course”, to the idea. I think that we made a mistake in Scotland, and the whole thing needs looking at very carefully. If, as a result of that careful deliberation, the consensus solution—as my noble friend Lord Crickhowell puts it—is votes at 16, so be it. But I do not wish to move further in that direction at the moment. I do not think that is a necessary part of this Bill; that is a further answer to my noble friend Lord Wigley. I therefore hope that the Government will resist these amendments, however persuasively they have been put by people for whom I have real regard and affection.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for his kind comments about me. May I return the compliment by saying that the families, particularly, and also the campaigners, including myself, were most grateful to the Government, the Home Secretary and the Minister for moving more swiftly than we had expected yesterday and bringing about that change, which will protect children—17 year-olds—in future far better than they are protected now. We are all very grateful to the Government for what they did yesterday.

I would like to raise some concerns in this debate, but first may I apologise for arriving so late to the debates on this Bill? I should manage my time better, and I apologise for entering the discussion at this late stage. Perhaps I may be slightly forgiven because it is a Welsh Bill, and perhaps I may have thought that, because I am not Welsh, I might not—I am digging a hole for myself, so I shall stop there.

There is much to be welcomed in the proposition made by those who have tabled these amendments, in relation to hearing the voice of young people. However, I am concerned that they betray a certain difficulty in the English-speaking world in terms of understanding child development. If one looks to those who treat people best, one might look to Italy, France or Spain for the way that they care for families and children. I should be interested to learn how far discussions there have gone in this direction.

Let me stress the good things about the proposal. It is so important to hear the voice of young people. Visiting schools, I heard young people talking about the withdrawal of the education maintenance allowance. Many young people felt passionately about that, and the proposal would give them an opportunity to vote on the matter. One could talk about school uniforms and concern about their cost and other issues for young people that they could push harder if they had the vote. Giving young people more responsibility is a well recognised way to help them to develop in maturity. In the care system, for foster children and children in children’s homes, it has been recognised how powerful it has been as a tool to improve outcomes to allow young people’s voices to be heard, particularly by those who make the decisions about allocation of resources—putting those people in the same room.

The principle is much to be welcomed, but—I know that this has been raised before—I am particularly concerned about a misunderstanding of child development and of human development. For instance, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is shortly to have a debate about children, the internet and social networking. I hesitate to presume what she may say, but I think she will say that we have been unkind to children. We have not given them any guidance; we have released this technology on them and expected them to deal with it. We have treated them just as if they were little adults, and we need to do better and give them better guidance.

There are welcome improvements in the criminal justice system, particularly in what the coalition Government have done to remove so many young people from custody, but in general, we are still far harsher to children who misbehave but are also troubled than they would be in France, Germany and other continental countries. As in America, the English-speaking world has difficulties in this area. The age of criminal responsibility in this country is 10; on the continent, the average is probably between 12 and 14.

What is the issue about the rate of human development? There is probably a biologist who may help me here, but the distinguishing feature of humanity is that we allow our children so long to grow up. Most animals have to face a hostile world from a very early stage in their lives. They may have to leave the womb and be walking within minutes. It may be one reason why humanity is so sophisticated that we allow our newborns, our children, our young people, to grow up and mature over a considerable length of time. In Denmark, for instance, children do not start primary school until the age of seven. The Danes feel that it is right to allow young people to enjoy their infancy and young childhood for longer.

First, I am concerned about people arguing for us to be harsher on children and using the fact that the voting age moves to 16 as a means to say that we can punish young people and keep the age of criminal responsibility at 10. I know that young people can marry at the age of 16, so it can be argued the other way.

I am taking too long, but let me give your Lordships one more example: the Rochdale sexual abuse of children. The Times reported last week or the week before that the police were saying, “The girl knew what she was doing; she wanted to be in that relationship”, about a 13 year-old. That highlights confusion within the police, but perhaps more generally—a difficulty about judging when a child or young person can make the right decisions for their age. I am concerned about the general principle of reducing the age and allowing young people to vote at 16. I fear that that reflects a general misapprehension. We do our children wrong when we ask them to act as adults too soon.

At the end of the 1960s, the renowned child psychotherapist, Donald Winnicott, wrote a book the final chapter of which dealt with the revolution in the 1960s. He said that it is right that children and young people should revolt. Teenagers should be kicking against adults and against the system. That is absolutely right; if they do not do that, they will not mature properly and become proper individuals as adults. But it is adults’ duty to stand against that, to set boundaries for children and young people. As difficult as that is—in particular, not to be overly punitive, not, because children challenge them again and again, to start locking them up or physically beating them—we must find ways to contain them.

As I said, I worry that this move reflects a misunderstanding on our part of the need to allow young people to grow up gradually over time. I cannot support the amendments. Again, I apologise for coming to this debate so late.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, if I had had the vote at 16, I would have voted Labour, but I grew out of it. I grew up and I grew out of it. The experience of the Scottish referendum was remarkable. I guess that those on my Front Bench probably want me to make a short speech. If I was to make a short speech, I would say: “I told you so”.

When we agreed that the Scottish Parliament could decide the franchise for the referendum, we gave up the argument. It became impossible to resist the argument for referenda in other devolved areas. We did that, I believe, without giving the matter proper consideration. We have not at any stage had a debate on the franchise. I asked my noble friend Lord Tyler whether he would extend it to general elections and candidates, and he gave me a politician’s answer. He did not answer the point; he said that it is not relevant to the Bill; but it is, it seems to me. If we are to give 16 year-olds the vote, why should we not allow them to stand as candidates for the bodies for which they have the vote as councillors or Members of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly or the Northern Ireland Assembly? Why should we limit that?

Other issues arise. Why do you have the right in Scotland to decide to break up the United Kingdom but not the right to buy a packet of cigarettes? We need to have a considered debate about what rights should apply to 16 year-olds. My noble friends Lord Crickhowell and Lord Cormack emphasised earlier today that you cannot proceed with constitutional reform on a piecemeal basis; it must be looked at in the round.

I am becoming desperately alarmed at the way in which the political parties are now engaged in a competition to use constitutional reform to get votes. That is disastrous. I was brought up in a tradition where constitutional reform was something which you did not do unless you had consensus, unless you could show precedent and unless you had taken a considerable time to consider the implications and unintended consequences, which always follow from constitutional reform. I am very much in the camp of the Labour Party in wanting a constitutional convention, a royal commission, or something to look at all the issues in the round, recognise how far we have gone so far and do something about it.

We are engaged in highly dangerous stuff. If you do not believe that, look at the opinion polls in Scotland today. We have just won a referendum. We won the argument decisively. What has happened? The unionist parties have seen their support slump. According to the opinion polls, Labour is looking at having only four seats in Scotland. The Tories have our lowest ever recorded share of the vote—that is saying something—at 8% to 10%, and the nationalists are romping ahead. Why? Because of that last-minute promise made of extra powers, not defined, and the consequences that have followed from that. We are in grave danger of dismantling our British constitution like some fine clock, taking out the wheels and finding that we no longer know the time of day.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Whitaker]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has set out very clearly and powerfully the way this group of amendments would work. I will briefly give noble Lords a couple of examples to flesh out what they mean in real cases.

For instance, there are two Gypsies on different plots, both facing injunctions to make them leave their own land because they have not yet obtained planning permission—notoriously low down on most local authorities’ to-do lists. With legal aid, lawyers managed to hold off the injunctions on the basis that there were reasonable prospects of success in their planning appeals. One of them has now obtained permanent planning permission and the other has obtained temporary permission for three years—of importance when there are school-age children in the family. The point is that these two would have been homeless without legally aided assistance, but these cases would not qualify for legal aid.

I should just add that the other Minister’s amendments to the previous group of housing clauses, offered in the witching hour last Wednesday, are welcome, but they are not nearly bewitching enough. They do not materially alter the unfair situation that Gypsies and Travellers will find themselves in if the Bill becomes law.

I also cite the case of a family on a private caravan site, protected by the Mobile Homes Act 1983—unless this Bill becomes law—but facing harassment by their landlord. The harassment was clearly intended to force them to leave the site. Their legal aid lawyer obtained an injunction to stop the harassment. One of the victims said, “Without a solicitor acting for us, they would have got us out by now”—again, they would have been homeless. As the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said, Gypsies and Travellers are often illiterate and harassment can be very complex in legal terms.

Gypsies and Travellers are often illiterate because that is what happens when you are moved on all the time as a child. Is it any wonder that our Gypsy and Traveller children have the lowest attainment rates in school, are more likely to die in infancy and have mothers who are more likely to die in childbirth? These are the consequences of constant eviction and moving on. The reason for even more moving on will still be the lack of legal sites, but added to an overwhelmingly unmet need—if the Bill becomes law—for legal advice and assistance in establishing such entitlement as exists.

Of course, the costs of unnecessary evictions are huge, but the most important disbenefit, if some form of these amendments is not accepted, will be to the ordinary human rights accepted for all other citizens not to be made homeless. As it stands, this Bill discriminates against a defined minority-ethnic group—whatever previous government letters to me have said—and I hope the noble and learned Lord can provide a more positive attitude.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I, too, support Amendment 79, to which my name is added, and I declare my interest as a landowner. I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and my noble friend Lord Avebury, for drawing my attention to these amendments. All children need a degree of stability in their lives if they are to do well. Instability for Traveller children arising from repeated displacements—the “churning” to which my noble friend referred—impacts particularly adversely on their educational outcomes. Displacement risks undermining the education of Traveller children, excluding them from society and contributing to a cycle of generational failure. I would encourage the Minister to accept this amendment as a means of improving educational outcomes for Traveller children and of promoting their inclusion in society.

I should like to pray in aid two documents; namely, My Dream Site, which includes research with Traveller children and is published by the Children’s Society, and a 2003 Ofsted report, Provision and Support for Traveller Pupils. The Ofsted report states:

“The average attendance rate for Traveller pupils is around 75%. This figure is well below the national average and is the worst attendance profile of any minority ethnic group … The 1996 Ofsted report The education of Travelling children estimated that at least 10,000 Traveller pupils of secondary age were not registered at school. This survey”—

the 2003 survey—

“indicates no decrease in these numbers and estimates that the figure could now be closer to 12,000. Despite examples of success by some services, the picture at the secondary phase remains a matter of very serious concern. Not enough Traveller pupils attend or stay on at secondary school … The vast majority of Traveller pupils linger on the periphery of the education system. The situation has persisted for too long and the alarm bells rung in earlier reports have yet to be heeded”.

That 2003 report highlights our failure to educate secondary-school-age Traveller children in particular.

The Children’s Society report indicates the connection between stability and school success for Traveller children. It states:

“More than any other amenity school raised a range of emotions.

‘It’s good for your education but it’s hard to get in because you’re travellers and that, so you get a lot of hassle at school.’ Johnny aged 12 years.

Other children’s experiences at school were similar, as they had also experienced bullying because of their traveller status.

‘The only reason a lot of people do it is because they don’t understand. I tell the teachers but they don’t do anything.’ Daisy aged 12 years.

There was a marked difference in attitude towards school from the children who had been settled on a site for a stable period of time. These children had an opportunity to settle into a school routine and knew what was expected from them in a school setting. The opportunity to build up a relationship with staff and with other children seemed to make attending school a far easier experience. They appeared to have less of a problem with being bullied because of living a nomadic lifestyle. Some of the children no longer identified themselves as travellers but saw themselves more as settlers. These children had been able to attend one school and had lived in one place for most of their lives”.

To conclude, all children need a degree of stability. The education of Traveller children is likely to be significantly impaired by continued upheavals, which can lead to their exclusion from society and failure for successive generations of Traveller children. I support this amendment because it may contribute to improved stability for Traveller children and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, after three excellent speeches I will make only one point, following directly from the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. What I may perhaps call the Cookson report—the King’s College report—quantifies certain knock-on costs. What it does not do is look at indirect knock-on costs. For example, in a case such as the one my noble friend referred to when he moved the amendment of somebody not getting timely advice and as a result finding that he and his family were on the street with the local authority having to pick up the problem and provide housing, along with the welfare fallout and so on, the indirect costs were not included in the figures of the King's College report. That makes the self-interest of the Government in listening to and agreeing the amendments in this group all the more acute.

My only other point was made by all three preceding speakers but is worth emphasising. The noble Lord, Lord Best, drew an analogy with Somali pirates. He talked of a small minority of exploitative landlords. That is absolutely fair; it is only a small minority of private landlords. However, they are concentrated among poor tenancies. If we throw our minds back to Rachman, we will remember that his tenants were among the poorest in London. That was no accident. Landlords who are of that evil mind know that poor tenants are least able to protect and stand up for themselves, and most easily harassed. Again, it is an issue of self-interest on the part of the Treasury to recognise that. If it does, it will see the sense of the amendments in this group without getting into morality and justice.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I confess to feeling very troubled by what I have heard in the Chamber during this debate. I will say a few words about my concerns in particular about vulnerable families in private accommodation. A few years ago I accompanied a health visitor in the borough of Redbridge in north-east London just north of West Ham. We visited a number of families living in very poor conditions in private property. In one such home the basement was flooded and the landlord had taken no action to remedy this. Another was overcrowded. A mother and her two young children shared one room with water almost running down the walls. The third, and most shocking, was a home in which the shower and the lavatory were somehow combined in one system. It may be a small proportion of landlords, but there seemed to be a lot of them in Redbridge, back then, at least. I declare my interest as a landlord. I hope that the Minister can offer some real reassurance in his reply that the most vulnerable individuals and families in society are not going to suffer significantly because of what the Government propose.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I come to this debate informed not only, as ever, by the noble Lord, Lord Best, whose expertise in matters of housing is second to none in your Lordships' House, but by my experience over many years representing an inner-city ward in Newcastle that has a mix of housing. It has owner-occupiers, a substantial number of council houses, houses owned by registered social landlords and a significant number of private rented properties, many of which are, I have to say, poorly managed and which present many problems to the tenants. It is certainly true that, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has said, some landlords are exploitative. Others are simply incapable for one reason or another of managing their properties adequately. They do not have the resources or the skill, or they may not live locally. Whatever the reason, it is the tenants who suffer. In these circumstances, there has to be some redress.

I will be speaking to Amendment 81, which seeks to cut to the chase in terms of the overall issue. The amendment so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, deals with a series of issues, but Amendment 81 simply seeks to restore legal aid across the piece in housing matters, which strikes my noble friends and me as probably the most efficacious way of dealing with the problem. That is not in any way to minimise the strength of the arguments put by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. He and I have been opening and closing debates across the council chamber for about 35 years, and it is a pleasure to continue that long-standing tradition.

Housing is now becoming one of the critical areas of public policy. For those engaged in not only the policy but the daily life that is influenced by housing, it is obvious that matters are getting increasingly difficult. We have spiralling rents and a shortage of available accommodation exacerbated, as other noble Lords have said, by pending changes to housing benefits that are likely to lead to still greater pressure on the private rented sector. At the same time, councils are having increasing difficulty in maintaining their stock as capital programmes are reduced and repairs and investment in existing council properties become more difficult to achieve. It must be said that not all councils are wonderful managers of property. Council tenants also have their problems and need redress as, occasionally, do the tenants of registered social landlords. What will occur as a result of the changes that the Bill proposes is that 40 per cent of housing cases—52,000 cases—will lose legal help, often from organisations such as Shelter rather than from solicitors but sometimes from solicitors, and that will save the Exchequer some £10 million. There will be 1,200 cases where legal representation will no longer be available. That will save the Exchequer £3 million. These are not inordinately large sums one might think, and other noble Lords have pointed out that the potential on-cost to other services could be considerably greater. Under the provisions of the Bill, there will be exceptional case funding, up to 25 per cent for some proceedings. I do not know whether the Minister is able to indicate the likely take-up. Up to 25 per cent can, of course, mean from virtually nothing up to 25 per cent, and it is not entirely clear what proceedings are envisaged in the term “some proceedings”. A little enlightenment on that would be helpful.