Immigration Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Lords Chamber

I now invite your Lordships to do just that. I hope that I may have persuaded noble Lords and the Minister that four would be a more appropriate age than seven, using the very arguments that the Government have used to justify seven.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, before speaking to my amendment I would like to say just a few words on what the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, has just said. She reminded me very much of the work of the child psychotherapist Anna Freud, who wrote several books on law and children with two eminent jurists from Yale University in the United States. She wrote about the difference between child time and adult time. A year in the life of a child is obviously disproportionately large compared with a year to an adult. We are all very concerned about children who languish in the care system who are just sitting waiting to be adopted. Even six months for a very young child is a huge chunk of their lives. I have a lot of sympathy for what the noble Baroness said.

I shall speak to Amendment 58 standing in my name and that of the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach. There has been concern that this Bill may weaken the welfare rights of children. The purpose of my amendment is to provide clarification that the rights of children will be undiminished.

I am most grateful to the Minister for adding his name to this amendment. I could have wished that the amendment went further to include reference to the best interests of the child, as was mentioned earlier in a debate this afternoon. However, having discussed this with officials, I understand that there are procedural difficulties that prevent the Government agreeing such a reference in the legislation at this stage of the Bill. I regret that, but I am grateful at least for this. I hope that the Minister will reiterate and make clear in his reply that the best interests of the child remain a priority throughout this legislation.

I also take this opportunity to reiterate my thanks to the coalition Government for having done so much to improve the welfare of children detained with their families. I have followed this issue for many years and the change has been remarkable and wholly in the right direction. I am most grateful that the Government are now enshrining those changes in this Bill. I also appreciate the opportunity that the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and I had to meet the Minister, the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, and officials to discuss our concerns about the welfare of young care leavers who arrive here as unaccompanied asylum seekers. I think that the Minister shares our concern for these young people—18, 19 and 20 year-olds—who are resident here without their parents, having experienced the loss of their homeland and their families, often having made a perilous journey to this country as children.

I hope that the report on these young people, to be published by the Children's Commissioner for England very shortly, will be favourably received by the Minister. I trust that any noble Lords who have been a parent or worked with young people will think about what it would be like for their own children, bereft of their parents, unguided and uncertain in a foreign land. I hope that they will keep that at the forefront of their minds when considering the immigration status of these young people and wish to treat these young people with consequent humanity.

I would be most grateful to the Minister if he would consider writing to local authorities to remind them of their particular duties to these young people. Many local authorities extend themselves very far to help them, but there remains evidence that not all authorities are clear about their duties in this area. I look forward to the Minister's reply.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, I added my name to Amendment 21, which is in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett. As she explained, some of the provisions in Clause 18 depend on a relationship with a qualifying child. I am doubtful of the wisdom of imposing rigid categories in a context that inevitably depends on the circumstances of individual cases. It seems that the inevitable consequence will be to create anomalies, as here, with the impact on a child who has lived in this country for a continuous period of four, five or six years. If we are to legislate by reference to the number of years that a child has been in this country, a cut-off period of four years seems much more appropriate than seven years. If the child is aged between six and 10, four years will form the major part of his or her conscious experience.

Immigration Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

I shall briefly speak to paragraph (d) of the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to draw to your Lordships’ attention today’s Financial Times. The headline reads:

“Migrants set up one in seven companies, study reveals”.

The article goes on to state that foreign businesspeople create 14% of UK jobs. I am sure that the Minister and the Government are very aware of the complexities of this issue. I hope it may be helpful to bring forward the information that was published today. Clearly, we do not wish to cut off our nose to spite our faces. If they are likely to contribute to the economy and generate jobs, we probably want to keep them.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome this amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Hamwee. I was very pleased to add my name to it. This is an issue on which I am fairly young. I have got into it over the past year through people from North America, who were in my very old European constituency, who, having been married, are unable to come back and live together.

At Second Reading, I mentioned this, and the Minister responded in a letter. He interpreted my speech as being very much in favour of sham marriages and as saying that people had a right to them. That is completely untrue—I welcome every effort by the Government to stop the pernicious incidences of sham marriages—but this is not about that. This is about real marriages and people who are forced to part by the administrative regulations around financial means. This amendment is a sensible and measured way to balance humanity with economy. It perhaps makes choices a little more complex, but it particularly concentrates on the areas of carers, of saving taxpayers’ money, as my noble friend said, and where children are parted from one of their parents.

All sides of this House are in favour of strong family life. I am sure all sides of the House are also in favour of people being able to make an open choice about whom they marry. Those choices are not always sensible, and that is nothing to do with whether they live abroad or are of different nationalities. It is surely a British citizen’s right and expectation to choose freely whom they are able to marry in a real marriage. This is not all the way to that, but it is an excellent compromise towards finding a way forward. I hope the Minister will be able to respond in some sort of positive way at this time.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Earl of Listowel Excerpts

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I listened with great interest as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, presented his case, particularly to what he said about children and families and the importance for children to grow up in a very strong environment, ideally with a father and a mother. I do not think that he said that specifically, but he talked about children coming into the care system and the difficulties at finding someone who will make a real commitment to the child. In my own family, marriage was fairly relaxed from a religious point of view, but it was there in preparation for having a child and gave us children a secure base to look forward to.

I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, speaking about the old view and the modern view of marriage. The old view is there for families and to give a strong framework in which children can grow up, and the modern view is much more about individual adults choosing what is best for them and what they feel most comfortable with. I am reminded of a report from the Children’s Society—the Good Childhood inquiry—some time ago, which drew attention to exactly that change and shift in adults, and the unfortunate consequence for children, with so many children nowadays growing up without contact with their fathers. That freedom of choice for adults has become a very unhappy situation for many children who do not have that security of having a father around.

This is such a difficult question and it is helpful that the noble and learned Lord has tabled the amendment. It is important to distinguish between this new version of marriage that we are discussing today, and traditional marriage, especially as there is some misunderstanding about the impact of same-sex parenting and heterosexual parenting on child development. There are strong feelings on both sides, and some say now that the question is quite finalised: we all know that same-sex parenting has the same outcomes for children as heterosexual parenting. However, I think that there are a number of difficulties about that particular point of view, and I would say briefly that same-sex parenting has been around for only a short time; it is a new phenomenon, so scientifically there has not been the time for extensive or controlled research to verify either way, or to provide data on these outcomes. We will come back to this later in the debate, but I support strongly what the noble and learned Lord proposes, and I hope that the Minister will feel inclined to accept it.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord across the Chamber. I want to make a brief point to the noble Lord, Lord Lester. If the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, had asked for the phrase, “traditional marriage”, the point made would have some benefit and would be something that we should perhaps take into account. But the amendment refers to “same sex couples” and “opposite sex couples”, so how on earth can anyone suggest anywhere that one sort of couple is better than another sort of couple? They just happen to be different—different and equal. So I cannot see how the noble Lord, Lord Lester, can make the point that one group will be downgraded because they are the same sex and another will not be downgraded because they are opposite. That is not an argument that can be used in the present wording—very clever and careful wording, if I may respectfully say so—of the noble and learned Lord’s amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

I want to say one last thing. I hope that those who are thinking of supporting this amendment will just remember what they are having to live down. This country has a terrible history of the way it has treated gay people. There are other countries which have a terrible present in the way they treat gay people. If you think that we are going too far, then put that down to making up for not getting there much earlier. Put it down to all those years in which gay people were subject to punishment of a criminal kind. Put it down to all those years of the jokes at school and university which so hurt gay people. Put it down to what we have done in the past to gay people and, if we go a bit further than you would like this time, then say, “I really have a lot to make up for”.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, he has made many important points but in his first point I think he was saying that there is no risk of confusion in the public mind and no need for this differentiation because it is all clear. However, is there not a risk in terms of raising children? There is a real question in the public mind about having children raised by, for instance, two men or two women and about children being raised without a father. I must not go on, of course, and this is a simple question. However, there is confusion, and is not the benefit of this amendment that there would be less confusion?

[Lord Deben]

I very much thank the noble Earl for that question. It would be germane if we were in France and debating the French changes, because France changed the law about adoption. The whole system was changed. We, of course, are not changing the law, as that provision is already there and is not altered at all. If that was where we were and what we were doing, there would be a different argument because I have to tell the House that I have a huge problem with the creation of babies in a world in which there are so many babies waiting for adoption. I have not yet come to believe that there is enough evidence to say that same-sex adoption is the same as or equal to opposite-sex adoption, but none of those issues is before us today. If they were, we would have a different argument. Because they are not, the proposed change is naked and unashamed. It is not about children or any of those things. It is about two different sorts of marriage and the difference will be upheld by those of ill will and by some of those of ignorant will, and we should not have it.

--- Later in debate ---

The Government want to make that happen. As I said at the beginning, there is one institution of marriage and we are opening the door to it. We do not want to open a separate door marked “same-sex couples”. There will be only one door and all couples will be invited to walk through it.

[The Earl of Listowel]

I thank the noble Baroness for her reply to my question about research into outcomes for children of same-sex couples. It is encouraging and reassuring, to some extent, that there is positive research about the experiences of two women bringing up a child. However, is she aware that it is still early days in terms of research? We have not, for instance, looked very deeply at what happens to children being brought up by two men. We have not looked at issues around lower income couples and the outcomes for them. Surely we need to keep in mind, and be critical about, all the research because we know, for instance, about poor outcomes for boys who grow up without fathers. We need to look at the research critically because it is still early days.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would disagree with the noble Earl’s suggestion that there is a difference in outcomes for children of same-sex couples, but that is a debate for another day. That argument, and the points he makes are not relevant to the amendments before us, which are about creating two different types of marriage. We are saying that there is only one institution of marriage, and both gay and straight couples who want to get married should be able to be part of that one institution on equal terms.