Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Monday 18th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests in financial services, particularly in international financial services for quite a long time.

Many of the speeches in this debate have given the Government a poor grade on things. However, it is important to remember business, which is at the centre of this. I always find that there is some confusion about what equivalence is. For financial services, there are 11 directives or regulations which give rise to powers to grant equivalences, 35 countries have taken advantage of that, and 279 equivalences have been granted—those are the figures from October on europa.eu. I gave evidence in respect of one of those 279 to try to get an equivalence for Bermuda—a successful achievement—some years ago, so I am very familiar with the process and also extremely familiar with how important it is for international business to have that equivalence.

The areas that are covered by equivalence, where obstacles and barriers are lowered or removed by granting it, include: accounting and auditing; capital requirement measurement; risk exposure measurement; and reliance on other markets’ regulators that reduces the amount of senior management time that is taken up, making sure that regulators feel comfortable with whatever the business is that you are running within their regulatory environment. It is therefore very important indeed that we have this instrument in place, if there is a disorderly Brexit, in the first instance. I agree with many of the points that have been made about how the Government’s performance has not been that good on this, or indeed on other statutory instruments. However, this is vital for business and is a key part of our economy, so I hope that the House will hurry it through.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome this statutory instrument. I note that paragraph 77 of the consolidated impact assessment states:

“This does not remove the general need to review and improve legislation, which HM Treasury remains committed to doing in due course and where appropriate”.


Following the debates we had on the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill, there are areas which might improve the financial services community and be for the benefit of the public and companies seeking to raise capital without the confines of some EU regulations; in particular, for small companies and for existing public companies that are seeking to raise capital from existing shareholders. At the moment, due to the expensive costs of a prospectus, they are prohibited from so doing. Although I have never prepared an impact assessment, I cannot imagine how one can be prepared in this sector, because there are so many potential benefits that might arise from this. I refer your Lordships’ House to my registered interests.

Official Listing of Securities, Prospectus and Transparency (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Monday 18th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

My Lords, I can be very brief. I declare an interest as chair of the Hansard Society, which is almost as obsessed with the effective scrutiny of secondary legislation as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is. I agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, has said about scrutiny, but I also have no objection to this SI per se. After listening to the exchanges, I understand the difference between consultation and engagement, and I support the view of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, that there should have been consultation as well as engagement on this SI and the other SIs that we are considering today.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to put the case for poor old business because once again it is the Government who are being blamed. This SI is about access to capital. Without good access to capital, business is constrained and we do not have the means to create the wealth that we need in our country. I have a lot of experience with prospectuses relating to both equity and debt and I am old enough to remember, and have produced prospectuses for, the 2003 prospectus directive. I have been invited, although I have not actually been, to many conferences to discuss the prospectus directive, the transparency directive and CARD—the consolidated admissions and reporting directive. This is very much in UK capital-raising mode. It is the devil that everyone knows, and these SIs grandfather through for British business a very important route to capital. It is not the only route but it is the listed route to capital here.

Here I want to say something very complimentary about the UK Listing Authority, which many noble Lords probably do not know. I have dealt with listing authorities in other countries as well, and the UK listing authority is exceptionally good. It is good at giving clear guidance and responding swiftly when it needs to give comments on a draft prospectus, and that is certainly not the case in some of the landlocked European places that are trying to snaffle our business. Again, it is of absolute importance that this SI goes through.

Turning briefly to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I think that of the various amendments that he has tabled today, this is very much the back marker, in that I do not think the case for it is nearly as strong. I note that the original policy note for this came out on 21 November last year and the draft SI surfaced on 12 December and was laid on 21 January. So this is the 89th day that this has been around, because the policy note was spot on that there have not been any changes. In fact, the appearance of the policy note produced a tremendous number of emails into my inbox from all sorts of the expensive lawyers that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, was talking about earlier—

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Distinguished lawyers.

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

Yes, I am sorry, we have now decided that they are distinguished lawyers—and others of the huge number of advisory people in London who help people get access to capital. There were a lot of notes in November and more in December, and what is interesting is that they have all been positive on this SI. So I am not sure what a full consultation would have produced in excess of the current SI. Anyway, that is what we have, and I very much hope that it too will sail through shortly.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

I very much agree with the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. His remarks were spot on. This has been around for some time, everyone in the industry is adamant that it is necessary for ongoing financial services success, and there is no quibble about its importance. The only quibble that I might have with the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—who has explained that he is not a financial services expert—is about what he was focusing on in note 10: the underestimate of 2,113 firms having to bear the cost of £700 each. Of course, the £700 is calculated assuming that firms will use lawyers at £330 an hour in each and every case. I can assure noble Lords that my firm, for one, will not be.

Benchmarks (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Monday 18th February 2019 Lords Chamber

In my submission, the appropriate consultation for this sort of enterprise is one that looks at the detail in the way that has been described, and a full public consultation would be an absolute waste of time. I feel pretty certain that the number in this House who are very familiar with the details of this particular situation is not very large—certainly, the proportion in the country as a whole is not large. Surely the right thing to do is to speak to those who know about it and have an interest in it, and find out how they think that it should be developed. That is what has happened. At the moment, it is not only in a no-deal situation that this would work. Of course, it may be that, if there is a deal, there will be consequential legislation, which would affect the present statutory position.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

It is a pleasure to follow that stream of logic, with which I agree entirely.

I wish to say two things. The Explanatory Memorandum was published initially on 23 November, so we are now in the 87th day after that. It generated a great deal of comment, which was widely circulated to people who were interested. Again I rang round various people in the course of the past few days and no one has raised any objection to this. In fact, everyone has said how important it is.

In answer partly to what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said, I notice that paragraph 2.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum states:

“Without these provisions, the FCA would not have an effective framework designed to prevent benchmark manipulation in the UK, affecting the integrity and attractiveness of the UK’s financial markets”.


The Explanatory Memorandum is right behind the noble Baroness in her point about the necessity of having the benchmarks properly looked after.

I have looked at a list of all the benchmarks and it is worth saying that many of them have been invented here in London—they are British—and so it is unsurprising that the naughty behaviour took place here and that the skills lie with our own regulators to prevent misbehaviour.

[Baroness Kramer]

Part of the problem is that it was not our regulators that identified years of benchmark manipulation but the US regulator and the US media. We need to be clear about that. Our regulators came in late in the day and only after a huge amount of pressure and exposure.

Secondly, while banks were manipulating Libor and some of the foreign currency exchange rates in order to increase their profits to suit certain circumstances, they were doing it, they thought, quite openly. People were shouting at each other across various trading floors that X would like the benchmark set here and Y bank would prefer it to be set there and whether they could do them a favour. The Bank of England was then implicated in instructing various banks to manipulate the rate at the time of the financial crisis in order to disguise from the wider market how difficult banks were finding it to raise financing. So, rather than reporting the actual rate they were being offered in the market, they were reporting a lower rate to suggest that they were being looked at more favourably; and because the Bank of England saw this as necessary for financial stability, it is itself implicated in some of the manipulation.

One of the concerns that I have that underlies this is that the FCA will be in a position with this SI to be the administrator, but it now becomes the sole administrator rather than one working in partnership with other EU administrators. That could lead to a vulnerability, with the challenge coming not from the EU but from the United States.

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

Thank you for that. I do not want to be the defence attorney for the regulators but the FCA would argue that it did not have the relevant powers beforehand. However, I shall not go there.

Again, this will be the effective framework to enable the FCA to do that work. Without this SI there is no framework.

At the end of the paragraph in the Explanatory Memorandum headed “Why is it being changed?” it states:

“If this instrument were not made, there would be significant market uncertainty among UK and third country providers over whether they would still need to be compliant by 2020, and among users over which benchmark they could lawfully use”.


In other words, it is a complete mess. The size of the markets that are affected by these benchmarks is vast. I am not sure that I quite understand the reasoning behind the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, to decline these regulations. It seems he is trying to take aim at a government process and is actually clobbering the City. I feel that is wrong and I very much hope he will not press his amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am afraid that despite my efforts I can find nothing wrong with this statutory instrument. It seems to be perfectly straightforward and necessary to manage the situation. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for reminding us of the Libor scandal. It was a dreadful period in British financial services history, and we forget it too easily, I fear.

If my noble friend intends to divide the House on his amendment I make it absolutely clear that he will not be supported by the Opposition Front Bench. We would support a fatal amendment on a statutory instrument only in exceptional circumstances and only after very careful consideration of the reasons and widespread consultation. We will therefore be sitting on our hands if my noble friend divides the House.

Solvency 2 and Insurance (Amendment, etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2019 Lords Chamber

In summary, this Government believe that the proposed legislation is necessary to ensure that insurance and reinsurance firms, insurance distributors and financial conglomerates continue to operate effectively in the UK and that the legislation will continue to function appropriately if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period. I hope noble Lords will find that explanation helpful. I commend these regulations to the House.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register, especially those in respect of the insurance and reinsurance industries. I will speak briefly to two of the three statutory instruments: the Solvency II and insurance regulations and the insurance distribution regulations.

Turning to the Solvency II and insurance regulations, and thinking about the near term, I congratulate the drafters of the statutory instrument; I know the ABI has been sitting with Treasury and PRA officials. First, it gives great comfort to the board of an insurer or reinsurer in the near term—I was thinking about how I would analyse it. It gives certainty on capital required, rollover for capital models and the ability to use reinsurance as temporary capital, and the asset values in an insurer’s balance sheet are unaffected. Secondly, I think the mutual equivalence regime is clever. It would have been possible to put equivalence for EU countries in the statutory instrument, but instead it is left to the Treasury to decide what to do. I think that is important because otherwise it would be possible for us to grant equivalence and then find that our Lloyd’s market had no equivalence granted back to it in the EU, which would be quite wrong. Mutuality of interest is preserved by that. Finally, I think the selection of measures designed to reduce that horror for all insurers, multiple regulation of the same action, is as good as can be done in the circumstances, so I congratulate the drafters on that.

However, thinking about the longer term, I put a question to the Minister. Solvency II—which came into force on 1 January 2016, for those who did not know, and is a regulation dating from 2009—is very much a one-size-fits-all solution to the problem of having the right amount of capital in your insurance market. Accordingly, it was not designed for the British situation. If you look at equivalent regimes in other jurisdictions—I am particularly familiar with the Bermuda jurisdiction, which is equivalent to the EU, but there are others such as Japan, Australia, Canada and the US, which is of course 50 jurisdictions in insurance terms—it seems that some changes could be made.

Your Lordships might well ask for some examples and I can think of two. There is a lot of gold plate around; that can go away. But one dynamic that has always surprised me is that over the last 15 years or so a large number of insurers and reinsurers have been set up, notably in Bermuda, while I do not think any have been set up here in the UK, the home of insurance. A review could properly investigate that dynamic. There are many reasons for it but I hope a review could address them because, to be competitive, I hope that new insurers and reinsurers will be born here, and soon. I would like to hear the Minister’s views on whether a review is warranted and can be expected.

I turn to the insurance distribution regulations. The directive on insurance distribution came in during 2016 and was the update to the 2002 insurance mediation directive. Insurance brokers were then hit by a regulation in 2017, which expanded on the directive, and in 2018 were hit by GDPR. A substantial series of changes have thus been made to how they need to operate, and a period of stability for them would be quite important. I come from the insurance underwriting world but I know the absolute necessity of having a healthy insurance intermediary world to feed our insurance underwriters.

One statistic that is a little worrying is that when the FSA, as it then was, took over the regulation of brokers there were 8,000 insurance brokers in Britain. Britain now has a bigger economy and we are down to under 5,000 of them, which does not feel right to me. I know that it is extremely difficult to found new insurance businesses. Does the Minister feel that, in the longer term, a review would be warranted here? It could seek out gold plate—insurance brokers are sure, and I am convinced, that the cost of regulation in this country is far greater than in other EU countries—but also look at why we have a shrinking number of brokers and why it is so difficult to start up a new broking business. A good review there would certainly give us a fitter and healthier insurance industry.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for his introduction. When I was involved in legislation in Europe, Solvency II was perhaps the first time that I discovered that I could be right while the Treasury was wrong. When I chaired the committee that gave me the confidence to trust my own judgment and to have few, if any, disagreements with the Treasury.

As it was originally done, Solvency II did not manage to cater for everything that the UK needed. In particular, we forgot about annuities; so did the ABI and the Treasury. I have to tell your Lordships that Parliament did not forget about annuities, but we were not strong enough to work out what to do about that because there was a big row going on, particularly between the UK and France, on equities and volatility. When I came back and discovered that I was to chair the committee, one of the first things on my agenda was Omnibus II, which aimed to sort things these out. We had the volatility adjustment for France; we had extrapolation for bonds in the eurozone, which were desperately needed by Germany; we also had the so-called matching adjustment, which we needed because otherwise the fact that insurance companies naturally tried to match the term of the assets that they collected to their liabilities would have been forbidden. They were supposed to account for their assets separately from assessing their liabilities, which in the business of annuities is a pretty stupid thing to do. Because we were having to box and cox with three other things, that meant that the solutions were probably less than perfect in the end, so in the fullness of time it might perhaps be made a little more perfect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these three SIs. However, once again, it gives me no pleasure to be here; these various SIs have ruined yet another weekend and are in pursuit of an outcome which all sane people believe is stupid and potentially catastrophic. It need not have been this way. Even with the excuse of taking responsible action in case of a no-deal scenario, had we started the whole process earlier we could have been considering these SIs at a more modest rate and perhaps giving them more scrutiny than they are inevitably able to receive—certainly, from me.

Before turning to my own concerns, I want to comment on what other noble Lords have referred to. The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, spoke of responsibilities presently held by EU bodies being transferred to UK bodies. There are two problems here. One is that the sheer complexity necessarily involved in doing that leaves the possibility of unintended mistakes having been made in the transfer. Secondly, the noble Lord mentioned costs. I am not too worried about costs; I am much more worried about resources. Do the FCA and the PRA have the resources to take on this burden? It has been explained to me that they will get their money from the industry and so on, but will the people involved be good enough, given the complexity of the situation that we are addressing?

The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, talked about the generality of Solvency II. From my standing-start understanding of this area, which began on Friday night, I accept that there is some debate about Solvency II. On the solution suggested by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, that the changes be introduced through this instrument, the Minister knows that I would be the first person to jump down his throat if he tried to do that.

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

I am sorry for having confused the noble Lord, but I certainly did not suggest that changes be introduced in the instrument. I suggested that Solvency II was a one-size-fits-all regulation with a number of things in it. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, must have known how difficult were the negotiations, taking place over such a long period and spanning a large part of the world, because of the interaction between the global insurance markets. I suggested merely that it might be wise to have a review and asked the Minister for his view on that. I apologise for any confusion.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I thank the noble Earl for that explanation and apologise for misunderstanding him.

The task we have is under Section 8 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, which is a very narrow task. My concerns are perhaps quite small and detailed, but I think that there is a fundamental concern about the process. There is a generality in political activity whereby what politicians do should be understood by a reasonably intelligent amateur—I am at least an amateur—and there is disquiet about the complexity of these three SIs. They are remarkably difficult to understand if one is not part of the industry. It is impossible to read the raw instruments. Much of them relates to FSMA 2000, which has been amended so many times that the original document is indistinguishable. Trying to understand the measure from the Explanatory Memorandum, in which I must trust because I have no other way of examining it, was difficult.

The Opposition will not oppose these instruments. As I read through them, they seem in general to do similar things, so I have no points to raise. However, paragraph 7.12 of the Explanatory Memorandum states:

“The European Commission’s responsibility for developing legislation will be transferred to HM Treasury which will be given power to make regulations for certain matters previously dealt with under Solvency II, e.g. the system of governance and risk management, methods and assumptions used in valuations and risk modules”.


That seems to be a pretty sweeping power which has been transferred. Does the Minister believe that is compatible with the withdrawal Act, particularly Section 8? What scrutiny, if any, will Parliament have of the exercise of these powers by HM Treasury? As set out here, they seem to be unrestricted.

Paragraph 7.13 says:

“EU assets and exposures held by UK insurers will no longer be subject to preferential risk charges when setting capital requirements for insurers that use the Standard Formula”.


At first sight, that sounds as though we are taking something away from the EU, that we are being beastly to them. It was only when I did further research that I realised that it has the opposite effect. As I understand it—I hope the Minister will be able to confirm this—the effect will be to increase the capital requirements for UK insurers, which will certainly reduce their profitability. As we know from previous debates, the objective of the withdrawal Act was to not introduce new policy. In his introduction, the Minister said that these instruments aligned with previous SIs. I do not think they do because, in order to stop cliff-edge changes in value, previous SIs have always had some sort of transition regime. If the effect is higher capital requirements, does that mean that UK insurers have been operating unsafely, with insufficient capital? If not, we will be introducing an increased burden on them. If my interpretation is right, why is there not a transition regime in order to make sure there is no cliff-edge change to that requirement?

Further on, in the section on impact, paragraph 12.3 states:

“UK insurers which use the Standard Formula for calculating capital requirements will be impacted by the removal of preferential treatment for EEA risk-weighted assets and exposures. Such insurers could face higher capital requirements unless they divest themselves of such assets and exposures. However, the government intends to legislate to provide regulators with powers to introduce transitional measures to phase in on-shoring changes to reduce the immediate impact on exit.


That hints that the Government are going to introduce a transitional regime through the regulators. Is that a proper interpretation of the paragraph? If so, when will the legislation alluded to, giving these powers to the regulators, come before the House? Why has this not been part of the SI?

Paragraph 7.15 of the insurance distribution instrument says:

“Regulations 6 and 12 of this instrument also transfer relevant legislative functions of the European Commission contained within Articles 25(2), 28(4), 29(4) and 30(6) of the IDD to HM Treasury. This includes the powers to make regulations about conflicts of interest, regulations about inducements, and regulations on assessments of suitability, appropriateness and reporting to customers, and specifying principles for product oversight”.


That seems to be a big bunch of powers. Will they be subject to any parliamentary scrutiny?

Finally, I was somewhat exhausted by the time I came to look at the conglomerates SI—we amateurs do have to work hard—but reassured by paragraph 7.12 of the Explanatory Memorandum which says:

“In practice this change will not have a material effect on financial conglomerates already operating in the UK”.


With that assurance, I have no questions on that SI.

Trade Bill

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, I am struggling, because I fear we are mixing our drinks a little. On the one hand, we have had some debate—particularly from the noble Lords, Lord McNicol and Lord Lansley—on the mechanics of a TRA. That is, what sort of people do we want, and how will they be governed? We clearly want competent people, which is to some extent going to be a tough ask—not because people are not clever enough, but because they have not practised this particular activity. On the other hand, the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh and Lady Brown, are talking about the politics and economics of trade remedy. In a sense, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, alluded to the nexus between that decision—the politics of trade—and the role of the TRA. This debate is not unpicking those two activities.

We talk about having a wholly independent TRA, but as a country there seems to be some political convergence around the idea that we have an industrial strategy. Are the Government going to run one independently of the other? I am not sure that Germany does that. Even though Germany is beholden to Brussels, I am pretty sure that its trade policy—the way in which it works through Brussels—is very much beholden to its industrial strategy. Further homework is required for all of us.

I sympathise with the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, on the ceramics industry. That industry benefited in this country from the political clout of Spain and other countries which have similar problems. If we leave the European Union, that support and clout will be gone. That will be true for many industries in this country, not just ceramics—agriculture is a huge loser in terms of lobbying in a post-Brexit world.

The question to ask ourselves is how much clout this TRA will have, when you have got the United States, the European Union and China. Let us say that this is a steel-dumping question. Does it matter what the TRA will do in the face of those challenges? We are arguing all sorts of important things, but by coming out of the European Union, we are reducing any kind of clout we will have in future trade decisions.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly in support of the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, and associate myself with all her remarks. I also associate myself with the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh—I agreed very much with what she had to say.

Amendments 101A and 103B are probing in nature, and I will address a few thoughts to this TRA membership question. In Schedule 4, the TRA is proudly declared to be independent. That is important in trade, because, as one goes through Article 6 of GATT, and the 1994 associated agreement on that article, one sees that the whole idea behind trade remedy processes is that they are fair and are not being used as political weapons by the countries wielding them. That independence is therefore philosophically important to preserve. And yet, in Schedule 4 we find that the Secretary of State will appoint all the non-executives. In addition, the non-executives will always be in the majority, and the Secretary of State can fire all of them. To add icing to the cake, the Secretary of State has the power to issue guidance, and the TRA must “have regard” to it. That does not look to me like a recipe for independence. It would mean that the TRA would begin life with a bad image, and it would be difficult for it to appear a useful, independent tool internationally.

I worry that, if another body had a similar structure which might have political interference—although I do not think we would actually operate it badly—we could be on the wrong end of something. We would not be able to criticise, because it would have the same structure. I join other noble Lords in very much looking forward to what the Minister has to say about the independence of the TRA, and about the points that I and others have made.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 101A and, without rehearsing the points, I entirely endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, said in speaking to the amendment. The Minister was kind enough to have a meeting with the team and myself, but I have this awful feeling that she will not support this amendment. I would like to give her a bit of bottle this evening and say why she must adopt the amendments, particularly Amendment 101A. A similar amendment was not carried in the House of Commons but by a very narrow margin and it goes to this point that a number of noble Lords have said this evening—the process must be, and be seen to be, fair in appointing and sustaining members of the TRA, and they must operate independently and impartially. I make this plea to the Minister: the Government must be seen to rein in some of the powers of the Secretary of State, which will be pretty broad if we let the Bill go to its final stages without making these points.

I entirely support what my noble friend Lord Lansley said about why an independent Trade Remedies Authority is required, and I should have declared an interest: I spent a very enjoyable six months in 1978 when I was very young, very keen, and very green, with the EU Commission—DG IV, now known as DG Comp. We did important things, such as read the Financial Times, which was amazing because a number of companies were announcing they were merging without having told the European Commission or the UK home authority, so it is absolutely vital that we have an independent authority such as the Trade Remedies Authority.

To respond to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, we need to give the businesses in this country the knowledge that there will be a remedy which replicates the remedies that are currently available. I entirely support his point that it will not be EU-wide, but we do need some anti-dumping and retaliatory measures at our disposal in this country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Brown of Cambridge]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendments 90A and 90B in my name. Again, I thank my noble friend Lord Kinnoull for adding his name to both amendments.

As we have heard, the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act sets the overarching rules under which the UK’s new Trade Remedies Authority will operate. The Act states that trade remedy measures do not need to be adopted if the TRA or the Secretary of State decides that they do not meet the economic interest test, as we have heard. When applying the EU’s equivalent—the Union interest test—special consideration must be given to the need to remove the injurious practice, that is the dumping or subsidy by another country, and restore competition. It is this special consideration that gives the EU test a presumption in favour of the adoption of measures. The materials industry, in particular, is concerned that this consideration is absent in the UK Act.

I appreciate that government amendments at Report stage of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act improved the wording around the economic interest test and Ministers have assured manufacturers that the intention is that there is a presumption in favour of adoption. However, the words contained in the Act fall short of such a presumption. Amendment 90A would give clearer direction to the TRA in exercising its duty to conduct an economic interest test. The intent is to establish firmly a presumption in favour of adoption of measures and hence to continue the protections that UK manufacturers currently benefit from while we are members of the EU. I recognise that the Government have indicated that the presumption in favour of adoption is their intent and that there may be other ways to strengthen this message to support and assure our manufacturers. I look forward to the Minister’s response as to how this might be addressed.

I think we have probably already discussed Amendment 90B. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, already highlighted the issue of rules about the operation of trade remedies coming through secondary legislation as a result of the provisions of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act. I will not go on for much longer about it because we have already heard the Minister’s response. But I would like to take the chance to emphasise again that these are hugely important rules that will have a profound impact on UK manufacturers’ ability to get a level playing field when overseas competitors are not playing by the rules. I also emphasise my strong conviction that these statutory instruments should be affirmative ones, approved by resolution of both Houses.

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

My Lords, I do not want to comment on the two amendments I have signed. I want to urge some support for the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara. I have in front of me Article 13 of the 1994 agreement which supplements Article VI of GATT. Entitled “Judicial Review”, it says:

“Each Member whose national legislation contains provisions on anti-dumping measures shall maintain judicial, arbitral or administrative tribunals or procedures for the purpose, inter alia, of the prompt review of administrative actions relating to final determinations and reviews of determinations within the meaning of Article 11”.


It then goes on to say that the tribunal must be independent of the authorities that have made the determination. It is an international obligation for there to be exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, proposes in his amendments. I think we need to pick that up and put it in the Bill.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for interrupting him. Of course, there is a requirement to have proper appeals, as has just been elegantly explained by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, but I was interested in whether they had to be the subject of special tribunals or whether they could in fact be fitted into the existing court system. My main concern as a former business person is with speed. Sometimes tribunals, public interest tests and so on can be a field day for lawyers and the whole thing can take a very long time. That is not what we want. We want to be able to make sure that the interests of our industries and other players are properly protected.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. I am grateful to her for having responded with such grace and clarity to a point I made six months ago in a similar debate. I should begin by declaring my interests and saying that I am in the curious position of deeply respecting the people who have signed the amendment, and usually agreeing with everything they say, but of disagreeing with what they say tonight. I will explain why.

If we in this Chamber sought to legislate for Scotland in a matter of devolved competence, and we did so without the consent of the Scottish Parliament, we can imagine what a hell of a hullaballoo would be raised immediately. We would be reading about it in every newspaper and the media would be full of it. Indeed, the media are fairly full of warnings from the Scottish Government every day that we must not do that. As a resident of Scotland—not so far from Glen Clova, in fact—I can tell the House that there are deep feelings in Scotland about someone coming into our competence. I know that that will be the same in Wales. I was with the EU Select Committee when we visited the Welsh Parliament, and in the course of a day that point was made to me probably half a dozen times by different Welsh politicians, from every different denomination and party within Wales.

Indeed, as a Parliament we developed the Sewel convention to cope with this situation, and it has been put into the memorandum of understanding. The October 2013 version says that,

“the UK Government will proceed in accordance with the convention that the UK Parliament would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters except with the agreement of the devolved legislature”.

Indeed, we put that into statute—certainly in the Scotland Act 2016, and I think in the equivalent Wales and Northern Ireland legislation. It has, of course, been litigated.

I have here the Miller judgment, and in his outstanding judgment—from which I shall quote shortly—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, rather elegantly reminds us, in paragraph 144, that the Sewel convention was not invented at that time, but that its substance was actually in effect between the UK and Southern Rhodesia, because the leading case in the Privy Council from 1969 discussed that. The Sewel convention represents something that this Parliament has had for a long time, and it stretches out to our Commonwealth as well as to our devolved Administrations here.

In the final paragraph of the five pages considering the convention, the noble and learned Lord says:

“In reaching this conclusion we do not underestimate the importance of constitutional conventions, some of which play a fundamental role in the operation of our constitution. The Sewel convention has an important role in facilitating harmonious relationships between the UK Parliament and the devolved legislatures”.


I repeat all that, and make a meal of it, because I have to say that the countries concerned and named in the amendment—I use the word “countries”, having lived in Bermuda for a number of years—are very proud and sophisticated places. Bermuda is incredibly sophisticated: its GDP per head is much bigger than that of the UK; its reinsurance industry overtook the UK’s in size in 2004, and is much bigger and very sophisticated. It would hate any infection of the sort of corrupt and criminal behaviour that has been elegantly referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. Everyone working on Bermuda feels—as I and every Member of this House does—that chasing down these corrupt and criminal individuals and their money is very important.

Therefore, we should not legislate without at least consulting these Parliaments, and getting their agreement to do so. It would be deeply wrong and very counter- productive not to do that. If one were to think of legislating, one should do so under the Sewel convention if there is strong evidence that something very bad is going on, and there is no ability to address that. However, I have to say that the evidence is the other way. I looked again at the Wikipedia article on the Panama papers. About half way down that article, there is a rather good league table of the banks that had been involved in that affair. Four of the top 10 banks listed in the league table were based in Luxembourg. None of the top 10 banks was based in any of the countries listed in this amendment. Therefore, we are getting slightly ahead of ourselves. Certainly, there appears to be a bit of work to do at home in the EU before it starts trying to do a lot of work outside.

When responding on the then Criminal Finances Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams—I am sorry not to be able to read out the relevant bits—said that the Government and the overseas territories discussed these issues round the table almost as if they were members of a family, and that there were a lot of subtle ways in which the British Government could try to make sure that there was continual progress on this very important issue. She assured the House that such measures produced continual progress. In my experience, I think they do as well. The thinking behind this amendment is admirable. I hate all this disgusting stuff perpetrated by corrupt and criminal people as much as anyone, but I do not think that the amendment pushes the ball further up the pitch. It would be very damaging constitutionally to our relationships with our loyal overseas territories. We should continue to take the road we have taken so far, which is to push the ball gradually up the pitch, as and when our Government meet representatives of our overseas territories and discuss issues such as that which came out of the EU yesterday.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, I declare an interest as vice-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for the Cayman Islands. In addition, a member of my family lives in the Cayman Islands. I very much support what the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has just said.

We have come a long way in the best part of 18 months from a situation in which there was no statutory methodology whereby United Kingdom law enforcement agencies could get information from any of the overseas territories in a reasonable length of time and know that it had been properly produced. Speaking only from my knowledge of the Cayman Islands, that information is now available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. That is rather better than Her Majesty’s Companies House is capable of doing. I think that is a great advance.

I deeply regret what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said: namely, that when Cayman Islands representatives went over to Brussels recently, they were protected by Her Majesty’s Government. They went on their own, put their material before the authorities there, and, quite rightly, the authorities listened properly and recognised the progress that had been made. That is why the Cayman Islands are not on the blacklist. Of course, the volume of financial operations in Bermuda and the Cayman Islands is extensive—so, understandably, anybody who is concerned about financial transactions will keep a watch on what is happening. That is absolutely right and justified.

The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, rightly referred to Luxembourg. Top four—not the bottom four. What about other parts of the world? The USA is probably in the clear, as I am sure that the central government of the USA is in the clear. However, it is totally incapable of controlling Delaware, Nevada and half a dozen other states. We are supposed to have a special relationship with the United States. That is not much good if we accept an amendment such as this and find that all the people in our overseas territories are thrown out of business as their legitimate business is undercut totally by Delaware and Nevada—particularly Delaware.

Therefore, I say to your Lordships, “Tread carefully. Recognise that huge progress has been made in the last 18 months and that we now have a situation where our authorities can get concrete evidence when it is required”. We are not getting that out of the present system of control in the United Kingdom. We can go out of this Chamber tonight, go through the smart parts of central London and see how many of those houses are unlit. Do none of us wonder who owns those houses? Do we think the British own them? We all know in our heart of hearts that they are not owned by British people, and almost certainly not by continentals. That money has come from somewhere. It seems to me pretty likely that it is hot money. So I ask noble Lords to think long and hard before they start to destroy these overseas territories.

I was sorry that the noble Baroness who introduced this amendment brought in human rights. I have had the privilege of working and living in Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka and I know that part of the world extremely well. Legitimate British companies working there are not exploiting people. They have brought employment there, better living conditions and all the rest. The noble Baroness is quite wrong to suggest that every company operating there—or the vast majority—is exploiting these poorer countries. I ask the noble Baroness and others to find some real, concrete examples rather than generic ones. That is why I will resist the idea of a public register until such time as we have given the existing one time to work, and until such time as the EU and the United Kingdom persuade the United States to join in with producing uniform reporting. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that I hope Her Majesty’s Government will tread carefully and recognise the work that has been achieved so far in a pretty short measure of time.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope the Minister will be able to give a concrete progress report. He had to dash away from the last Committee session to meet members of the overseas territories on the joint ministerial committee. Let us hear his assessment. But I give notice from the Opposition—and I know this has cross-party support—that we will be returning to this matter and we will push it strongly, because everyone wants to see firm action and we do not want to wait another seven years.

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

Before the noble Lord sits down, could he give some comment on the Sewel convention-type points that I made? I was making a constitutional point and it would be very helpful to understand the Opposition’s view.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

The Opposition’s view, in terms of global economic theft, for want of a better word—the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised this point—is that we are not talking about domestic industries or domestic activities. We are talking about transactions that are going global in terms of what I would call international crime. Not only the Panama papers but also the Paradise papers are showing that these activities are causing far more damage.

I believe that the overseas territories have an obligation to comply with international agreements, certainly regarding our UN obligations on sanctions. If we sanction a country for corrupt activities, the overseas territories have to comply. If it is good enough for sanctions, it is important that we consider it important enough for some of the crimes we have heard described this afternoon.

Financial Services: Regulation

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I suppose we can all declare an interest in that. My noble friend may be encouraged to hear that as a result of the money laundering regulations that were laid before the House in June 2017, the FCA has issued guidance on politically exposed persons to ensure that they are dealt with on a case-by-case basis and in a proportionate way, and that organisations focus on those individuals who would be at highest risk and recognise those who are at lowest risk, which I am sure would include all Members of your Lordships’ House.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, UK non-life insurance brokers are regulated by the FCA and bear the costs of that regulation. Is the Minister aware that the relative cost in the UK is more than twice that in Ireland, Hong Kong and Bermuda? The multiple is bigger in France and Germany. Does he agree that this is unhelpful to the industry and is actually evidence of overregulation?

[Lord Bates]

I respect the knowledge the noble Earl has in this area but there are differences in the way that the regulation is funded in different jurisdictions. I come back to the point that we need to look at how regulation is applied effectively on those who are at highest risk and recognise those who are at lowest risk. The FCA has a statutory duty to establish and consult a small business practitioners’ panel on policies impacting on small and medium-sized enterprises, and I think that is the right way forward.