Scotland Bill

Earl of Kinnoull Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, I feel obliged to intervene for Wales for a moment, because there is a very solid Welsh dimension in this. I also feel that I can do so because I was married for 39 years to a lass from West Lothian and I have always known the answer to the question—which is, “Yes, of course, dear”. The point that really concerns me is that a deal is being done in secret in Scotland, involving the fiscal framework, which will have implications in Wales. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, the Welsh deal on the Barnett formula is rubbish. Every political party in Wales recognises that. The Welsh Labour Government refuse to exercise their tax-raising powers until that formula, or some formula, is revised. I fear that this secret formula or framework that is being arrived at in Scotland will be used as a precedent in Wales when we come to deal with tax-raising powers under the draft Wales Bill, and that we will be stuck with the same sort of system, arrangements and mechanisms as there are in Scotland—but it will be entirely different.

Therefore, I urge Ministers, as my noble friends have done, to allow transparency, so that we may actually have some input. Many speakers in this debate have said that it is unfair on other parts of the United Kingdom. Certainly, it may very well be unfair on Wales: the impact of this fiscal framework in Scotland could devastate Welsh funding for the future. I hope that your Lordships will excuse me for putting in a Welsh voice.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 76 and 79G. Like many other noble Lords, I have found much that is attractive in many amendments in this debate, but I am confining my remarks to those two. I note that all the amendments and speeches have been wholly consistent with the Smith commission report.

I support Amendment 76 totally, of course, but I fear that it is something that is needed more than once; in fact, I would repeat it every five years. I see it as part of what, in commercial terms, one would call a feedback loop, which I think one needs to set up for every single devolved Administration. It could be well-structured and formal and allow for a frank examination of every aspect of devolution between Westminster and those devolved Administrations. If we do not set up a feedback loop now, as sure as eggs are eggs, when things go wrong we will set one up in the future. I feel strongly, and I think this will come back in further debates, that a feedback loop is required.

Secondly, I was much attracted by the thinking behind Amendment 79G. However, I would not in fact set up a Scottish fiscal commission; rather, I would expand the OBR to include this. As we expand the number of devolved deals, the problem is that we could potentially end up with a massive number of these commissions, all of which would essentially be umpires and all of which, one assumes, would umpire according to slightly different rules. There would be a great advantage to having one umpire in the UK—it has been pleasing to read today in the press how the OBR has resisted political interference in the recent past—which used one set of rules to examine figures and to report generally to the United Kingdom.

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The serious point—not that I am saying that the points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, are not serious—is that these are quite important constitutional issues. I hope that in replying to the debate the Minister will indicate that the Government are willing to look at this again, because these powers go far beyond what is reasonable.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

I support the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. I said near the start of the debate that I felt that, of all the stuff we have had in Committee over the past few days, this clause was the one thing that was inconsistent with the Smith commission agreement. I shall explain a bit more of my thinking behind that.

I have my dog-eared copy of the Smith commission report here, and in the foreword there is a paragraph headed “A more autonomous Parliament”, which starts:

“The Scottish Parliament will be made permanent … and given powers over how it is elected and run”.

In paragraph 26, entitled “Powers over the operation of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Administration”, we read that:

“UK legislation will give the Scottish Parliament powers to make decisions about all matters relating to the arrangements and operations of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government, including”,

and then follows a list of the things that are included.

It seems to me that those words—and I am sure that we could trawl through the Smith commission report and find others—at least raise a reasonable doubt about whether the provisions are consistent with the Smith agreement. I would certainly feel, on balance, that they were not. There are few fans of Henry VIII clauses in this House, and I can see no reason why these powers are needed, or indeed—because of my point about the Smith commission—why they should be there.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

80: Clause 69, page 75, line 17, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert—
“(1) Sections 13 to 68 of this Act shall not come into force until such time as the relevant Secretary of State has laid before Parliament a statement to the effect that the Secretary of State is satisfied that the Scottish Government and any Scottish authorities to which power is devolved under this Act have the appropriate arrangements in place with which to exercise the relevant powers devolved under this Act.
(1A) Each section or subsection to which subsection (1) applies may be the subject of a statement under subsection (1), which once laid before Parliament would cause that section or subsection to come into force.
(1B) The provisions in subsections (3) to (7) are subject to the provision in subsection (1).
(2) Sections 1, 69 and 70 come into force on the day on which this Act is passed.”

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 80, I wish to speak also to Amendment 81.

Amendment 80 is intended to do something very simple. The language is illustrative only. The concept is that a power to be transferred under the Bill would be so transferred only once the Secretary of State was satisfied that arrangements were in place for the transferred power to be successfully and smoothly operated in Scotland; and that, by implication, matters in the rest of the UK would continue at least as successfully and smoothly as before that transfer. This is fully consistent with the Smith commission agreement and would, of course, remove all temptation to go for a rushed and bodged job—a temptation that has so often been succumbed to in the process that has led us here today. It is quite simply a small source of comfort and protection for the ordinary citizens of Scotland and the rest of the UK who would be the innocent victims of such a rushed and bodged job. It is worth noting that I was anticipating that a similar discipline would be observed in Holyrood.

As I said in an earlier debate in Committee, the origin of this thinking came from a conversation that I had with an SNP MP, who said that he had anticipated teething troubles where the British Transport Police were concerned. Here, I assume that “teething troubles” means young women being thumped, drug smuggling having an easier ride and terrorists getting through. I dare say that the Minister will suggest that the amendment is not needed because responsible Ministers would act in such a manner anyway. However, I put it to the Committee that in the politically charged atmosphere that is the genesis and continuing history of this Bill, we have seen time and again actions taking place that would not occur under the simple discipline proposed in Amendment 80, and when taking into account the ordinary citizen’s point of view rather than the political one.

I further add that, as we move into a more devolved United Kingdom, with further devolution deals affecting other parts of the UK, this would be a help as a general principle. It would ensure that the risk of teething troubles is greatly reduced. It would mean that devolution is considered from the point of view of the ordinary citizen, not the politician.

Amendment 81 was debated at an earlier stage, and I know that the Crown Estate will come up again on Report, but would the Minister care to comment on whether the SNP has had put to it the various Crown Estate ideas which have been debated in this House? If so, what did it have to say about them? I beg to move.

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[Lord Dunlop]

I am very happy to write to the noble Baroness on that point.

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

I thank the Minister for what he said. I was rather ungracious earlier on: he spent a lot of time with me on this issue, and has gone a long way to giving lots of assurances about my essential concern, which is the private citizen as opposed to political expediency. I am grateful to him and I note that he has organised a drop-in on the issue of the British Transport Police tomorrow afternoon; I shall be dropping in for sure. That said, and putting down a marker that I feel that the interests of the private citizen as opposed to political expediency is something that this House should have regard to, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 80 withdrawn.