House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Norton of Louth

Friday 10th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I wonder whether it might not be better if I withdrew this amendment, talked to my noble friend and came back at Third Reading—I see the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, nodding—with amendments that were more tightly drawn. I think that everyone understands the point I am making.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

If I can help my noble friend, my recollection is that the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill, most of which was lost in the wash-up at the end of the previous Parliament, had a provision to meet the very point that he is making. I suspect that if we look at that, we can find the actual drafting that would meet that point.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I am even more inclined to withdraw the amendment and we can discuss this between now and Third Reading. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Norton of Louth

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, this is a very simple amendment, which I hope my noble friend will be able to accept. It says:

“A person who ceases to be a member of the House of Lords under section (Retirement age) shall not be disqualified from … voting at elections to the House of Commons, or … being, or being elected as, a Member of that House”.

I beg to move.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I do not understand the amendment. It appears to be consequential on Amendment 128, which has just been withdrawn.

[The Earl of Caithness]

No, my Lords, it is not consequential on Amendment 128. I did not accept the groupings. I did not group Amendment 129 with Amendment 128 and I did not speak to it earlier. So I am moving it now and I am perfectly entitled to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I merely note in respect of manifestos at the last election that the three main party manifestos said different things about the House of Lords. They were not all in agreement. My main point is in response to my noble friend Lord Caithness’s argument that this is a major constitutional change so should be subject to a referendum. If the Bill constitutes major constitutional change which should be subject to a referendum then we are perfectly entitled to regard it as stage 2 of Lords reform and his objection to getting rid of the by-election option completely falls.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the point I made was that it was because of getting rid of that. If the noble Lord takes out the removal of the hereditary Peers, then it is not stage 2 of Lords reform. The removal of the hereditary Peers, which breaks a crucial agreement, means that it becomes a major reform. It would be implementing the terms of the 1999 agreement. I have absolutely no doubt that we will talk about this a lot more in the future.

My noble friend Lord Cormack was absolutely right to say that many of your Lordships are concerned by the idea of an elected House, and not least the noble Lord, Lord Steel. He has expressed some serious concerns about having an elected House. I do not fear that. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. It is interesting that once again the hereditary Peers are more reforming than most other noble Lords. That takes me back to the days of my noble friend Lord Carrington, who in 1968 got the agreement of the basically hereditary House to change the way that we operated. That was turned round in the House of Commons. Had that proposal been agreed, I would not have been here for 40 years, nor would my noble friends Lord Selsdon and Lord Trefgarne. I would have missed it by one year and I am the third longest-serving Member of the House speaking today.

Clearly, this amendment does not receive any support at all. That surprises me. If we are allowed a referendum on a decision under the provisions of Article 31(3) of the Treaty on European Union, which permits the adoption of qualified majority, we ought to have a referendum on constitutional change. However, I agree with all those who have said that there must be a referendum on the Government’s Bill. I think I said that when we discussed it in your Lordships’ House. I am happy to withdraw the amendment.