Trade Bill

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Haskel

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Monday 7th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

I call the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. No? Then I call the noble Earl, Lord Caithness.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Baroness was unable to give us the benefit of her wisdom.

An advantage of being “tail-end Charlie” as the last speaker of 15, is that most of the points have already been made, which helps to speed things up. Let me start with Amendment 12 in the name of my noble friend Lord Lansley. He made some convincing arguments and, unless the Minister can convince me otherwise, we should support the amendment. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, said that CRaG was fit for purpose. I contend that it is not. It was designed in another era, when we were part of the EU and the EU was doing our trade deals. Now we are doing our own trade deals—good luck to the Minister and godspeed to all his civil servants; they will need it in this complicated world. The trade deals that we negotiated 50 years ago are hugely different from those we are negotiating now. Today’s deals are much more complex and involve not only trade but each and every one of us—the environment, biodiversity, the way we live. Therefore, it is important that Parliament is properly involved.

How complex trade deals have become is the compelling argument for Parliament to be given a statutory right to look into these matters. Trade deals are only going to get more complicated, therefore the discrepancy between the current situation, which is out of date, and what is needed in the future, is growing. Effective scrutiny by Parliament on a statutory basis would improve the quality of decision-making. Nothing hones a civil servant’s pen quite like getting Parliament to have a good look at what they are doing.

We have heard that a common objection to the wording of Amendment 6 is that it ties the Government’s negotiating arms and affects their room to negotiate with the other side. I do not think it does. In America, Congress is a very useful weapon that the US negotiators use. They constantly say, “We couldn’t possibly get that through Congress”. Our discussions with the EU are at a very delicate stage, and if there had been a mandate from Parliament that one of the negotiating objectives of this Government was that we would be a sovereign state equal to the EU, we would not be having prevarications with some of the EU states. We would have had a much better chance of getting a deal. Rather than the Prime Minister saying: “We are going to be a sovereign state”, he could quite rightly say: “Parliament has said that we are going to be a sovereign state”. That would have saved a lot of the rather frustrating and silly discussions that are going on at the last minute. It would also consolidate the position of the UK as a serious negotiating partner which will ratify whatever deal is agreed if Parliament has had a proper say.

I am very much aware that the Minister has made concessions on a number of points, but that is not the same as having them in statute. In this day and age, given what has happened in America and how the EU looks at its trade deals and has adapted, it is time that we adapted and took a firmer view, giving Parliament the statutory backing that it needs to look at these matters, but not to the extent of tying the hands of the Minister and the Government in any negotiating deal. Therefore, I support Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Haskel

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, we have had a very good humoured debate throughout the day. It began perhaps a little fractiously in the morning but—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel)]

Before the noble Lord responds, I have to call Amendment 143 as an amendment to Amendment 142.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, in order to allow the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to speak, I am not going to move Amendments 143 to Amendments 161 inclusive because they are amendments to Amendment 142 which I am going to withdraw for the reasons I have said. I had to move it to get on the record my apology to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Is Amendment 142 not moved?

[The Earl of Caithness]

No, my Lords, with respect to the Chairman, we are debating Amendment 142 at the moment and the noble Lord, Lord Steel, is on his feet. I have yet to speak on it again.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am slightly confused. I do not know whether the Deputy Chairman of Committees has called Amendment 1. He certainly did not call any Peer to speak to Amendment 1, so I do not know whether we are in limbo land or debating an amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel)]

I was obliged to call Amendment 1 but it was obvious that the Government Chief Whip wanted to say something, so I called it and then invited him to speak. If it is the wish of the Committee I shall call Amendment 1and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness.

Amendment 1

Moved by