Health and Social Care Bill

Earl Howe Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Owen]

May I just make a slight correction? I said that the debate on the impact of the European Union on healthcare in the United Kingdom in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, will be held on 10 January. It will actually be held on 11 January, as the dinner-break business. I want to be quite clear about the timing of that important debate, which at the moment is limited to a maximum of one hour.

While I am on my feet, I want to stress that every word that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has said is wholly appropriate. This question of risk assessment is central to the judgments which will have to be made at Report. I hope very much that we do not proceed to Report until the tribunal's judgment has been heard.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, perhaps I could begin by addressing briefly the matter of the risk register. Arising from earlier debates on this subject, I have discussed the timetable for the appeal with my officials, and I say again that I recognise fully the strength of feeling on this issue and the desire for speedy resolution. As noble Lords are aware, the timetable for matters of this kind is a matter for the Information Commissioner and the legal process. In view of the noble Baroness’s very courteous suggestion that I should write to her and to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about this, I undertake to do so straightaway. I will copy in my noble friend at the same time. In that letter, I undertake to give as much information as I can at the moment about what we see as the likely timetable for the process.

[Lord Mawhinney]

Before my noble friend leaves that, can he tell the Committee whether the Government have already made representations about speeding up this process?

[Earl Howe]

Yes, my Lords; I have personally done so, as I undertook to the Committee that I would do. Perhaps I may include my noble friend in the letter that I send out so that he is fully aware of what I have done and what my department has done.

I turn next to the matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Owen. To answer his direct question: yes, I was aware that the department was writing to the noble Lord in the terms that he outlined. I would not wish him to think me guilty of discourtesy or bad faith, because after he asked me to look into this matter I did so. I received very firm and clear legal advice that the information he has asked for falls into the category of professional, legally privileged advice given to the Government. It has not been the practice of successive Governments, including the previous Government, to waive privilege on information of this kind. However, as this matter is ongoing, I hope the noble Lord will forgive me if I limit what I say at this point. He has asked me to look at this further, and of course I shall do so.

[Lord Warner]

I was the Minister of State responsible for competition policy in the NHS in 2006, when this legal advice was sought by me and, I think, by Patricia Hewitt as the Secretary of State. As I recall, it was at the point when we were considering the whole issue of regulation reform and Monitor becoming an economic regulator. For my part—I cannot speak for Patricia Hewitt—I would be only too happy for that information to be made available to the noble Lord, Lord Owen. If, in a sense, I am the client, I waive my client’s responsibilities in this area, and I am very happy for that information to be shared.

[Earl Howe]

I note the noble Lord’s liberality of spirit in this Christmas season. The problem is that it is not up to him, or indeed me as an individual, to cut across the practice which has been laid down across government. However, I have undertaken to look further into this question and I shall indeed do so.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, it is of course open to my noble friend to simply seek access to papers that he was given advice on as a Minister. I suggest to my noble friend that perhaps he should ask to see those papers. Having done this myself, I know that you have to see them within the department. Usually you get a cup of coffee from the Permanent Secretary’s office, and you cannot take the papers away, but you can summarise and make notes. If the department is not going to make the papers available, perhaps my noble friend would care to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Warner]

In the spirit of Christmas, I make myself available to attend the Permanent Secretary’s office. I hope that the coffee in the Department of Health is a bit better than it was when I was there. I would like to take up that offer, which is a very good and constructive suggestion by my noble friend. I hereby deliver the request to the Minister.

[Earl Howe]

I shall be glad to attend to the noble Lord’s request.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

Perhaps not quite in the spirit of Christmas, with regard to the important issue which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, raised and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams referred to, it is frankly not good enough to say that there will be a letter, which none of us will actually see apart from those particular people over the Christmas period. The major question which hangs over this House is whether the tribunal’s decision will be made available before the Report stage. Could the Minister give a real Christmas present to this House by saying that, whatever happens, the Report stage will not take place until that decision is available?

[Earl Howe]

I cannot give that undertaking, for the reasons that I will set out in the letter. The position—which I shall elaborate on when I write—is that the Information Commissioner has requested more time, and in light of that we have made representations to expedite the process as far as possible. However, the advice I have at the moment is that it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, that the judgment will be delivered before we are due to go into the Report stage of the Bill. This is something that we are dealing with at present, and if I can update my noble friend, as well as other noble Lords, when I write, I shall be happy to do that. I do not wish this to be a closed process. All noble Lords in this Committee who have taken part in these debates are very welcome to be copied in.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I intervene briefly and in a way that my noble friend may find somewhat unexpected. Can I just express some concern—although I have a lot of sympathy with many of the things that they say—about the number of ex-Ministers who seek to throw overboard, in a very short space of time and in a particularly short-term context, the policies that have been maintained by successive Governments throughout the whole of my political lifetime? That needs careful thought. On the risk register, for example, it seems entirely possible that the Government collectively may take the view that this is so important that they should appeal onwards, up to the Supreme Court. If so, that would be the proper thing to do if it is thought to be in the best interests of public policy. We need to take care.

[Earl Howe]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I cannot predict what the collective view of the Government would be in a situation in which the decision on appeal went against my department. We have not reached that stage yet but it is potentially the case that the Government as a whole would wish to pursue the matter further in that eventuality.

Perhaps I should now revert to the amendments before us, beginning with Amendment 346. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, is absolutely correct: information standards are important. However, we need to remember, too, that standards have to be appropriate. There can be burdens associated with them as well as benefits. There are a number of different types of information standard that could help to support the health and social care system—for example, standards to ensure the comparability of data or information governance standards to protect patient information. We intend to consider the detail of which standards we would require following the publication of the information strategy. As a result, we think that it is better to create an enabling provision that does not tie the Secretary of State or the Commissioning Board to an obligation to prepare a standard, and gives us an opportunity to consider where we can adopt standards that already exist.

The amendment also seeks to remove the authority for the Secretary of State or the Commissioning Board to prepare an information standard. This means that the Secretary of State or Commissioning Board would have the power to adopt only an information standard designed or prepared by another body. However, in some cases they may need to design a new information standard themselves, rather than rely on one prepared by another organisation. We believe that the Secretary of State and the NHS Commissioning Board would be best placed to develop or commission an information standard if, for example, it became apparent that one had not been prepared by another body or needed to be modified to be appropriate.

Turning to Amendment 347, I should like to reassure the noble Lord that, under the current drafting of the Bill, the collection and dissemination of information would also be subject to information standards. This is because the “processing” of information, as the term is used in this clause, has the same meaning as in the Data Protection Act 1998, which includes collecting and disseminating information. Therefore, the additional wording is unnecessary.

I am sympathetic to the sentiment in Amendment 347A. There are many intended benefits to using information standards, which include those highlighted in the amendment. However, prescribing the anticipated benefits or beneficiaries of the policy in the Bill is not necessary. In fact, it could prevent the development of information standards that do not fit into those categories. I hope that those comments will reassure the noble Lord.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked me why we put so much about information standards in this part of the Bill, compared to what we put in the Bill about accounting standards. Our view is that it is essential that information standards are set at a national level to allow different systems to talk to each other. That is an approach that the noble Lord shares. With accounting standards, the arguments are slightly different. I do not agree that it is appropriate to put accounting standards on the face of the Bill. We need to ensure that the management information collected by local organisations is of use to those organisations; that is, the organisations have the flexibility to determine their management information needs. However, I will write to the noble Lord on this matter before Christmas, and no doubt he and I can have a further conversation about it. I look forward to that.

On Amendment 347B in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Low, we agree that it is vital that people receive information in an appropriate format. This point was clearly made in the responses to our consultation on an information revolution. For example, the RNIB, of which the noble Lord is vice-president, highlighted the importance for health professionals to be made aware of, and respond to, people’s need for information in alternative formats.

We fully recognise the need for people’s communication and information requirements to be recorded—for example, in their care records—and for that information to be shared with professionals along care pathways. I reassure the noble Lord that the department is currently working with stakeholders on the best way to achieve this, which could be through an information standard or through other mechanisms. Further detail will be included in the information strategy, which we plan to publish in April next year.

I realise that I have not covered Amendment 348 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. This amendment would require the information centre to arrange for and publish an independent audit of its processes every three years. I completely accept that effective oversight and scrutiny of our arm’s-length bodies is important so that the department and the public can be assured that they are performing their functions effectively and are providing value for money. However, we do not believe that this amendment is necessary. I shall briefly explain why. First, as a department, we plan to undertake formal performance and capability reviews of each of our arm’s-length bodies at least every three years, including the re-established information centre. This would consist of reviewing its performance, financial controls and internal governance, and what one might term its “organisational health”, including the centre’s relationships with its key partners in the system.

In addition, the information centre, as a non-departmental public body, would be required to establish an audit committee that would provide independent and objective oversight and assurance of the centre’s systems of internal control, including risk and financial processes. The Bill also requires the information centre to prepare annual accounts each financial year. These would be examined and certified by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and laid before Parliament.

Finally, the Bill makes provision for the re-established information centre to be subject to the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967. This means that the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman would be able to investigate complaints that the information centre had not acted properly or fairly or had provided a poor service in the exercise of its functions. With those assurances, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his full reply to my amendments. I will certainly study it very carefully. I think that he and I probably differ on the issue of information standards and accounting standards. I still think that there is an issue in that area given how significant it is for the NHS. Therefore, I will probably return to it.

Before I sit down, I should also mention that in recent days the King’s Fund has produced a report on the very serious situation in London, which is extremely relevant to the consideration of the risk register as it shows that more than 50 per cent of the NHS’s historic deficit is held in London. London is in serious financial difficulty as regards converting many of its trusts, if any, to foundation trust status. The Minister might like to look at that report when considering this whole issue of access to the risk register. In the spirit of Christmas, I say to the noble Earl and to the noble Lord, Lord Low, that I recently bought a case of Chapoutier wine, the labels of which are also printed in Braille. Therefore, I say to the noble Lord that if a French winemaker can do that, the Department of Health ought to be able to do it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I underline the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, because the whole area of information is a crucial aspect of the constitutional issues about accountability. In particular, the clauses we are discussing are expressed in complicated ways that are difficult to understand. For example, I find it hard to be clear that personal and identifiable data will not fall within the terms of the clauses, because the phrases “other persons”, “other bodies”, and so forth are scattered throughout the clauses. That disturbs me. Perhaps the Minister could add a little on data protection legislation and address the important point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, about this aspect of the Bill, which of course relates to several others besides.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I hope that I can satisfy my noble friends on these issues. If my noble friend Lord Mawhinney is old-fashioned, we are all the more fortunate for that. I feel a little old-fashioned myself, so I understand where he is coming from. He will appreciate that the clause provides powers for the Secretary of State and the NHS Commissioning Board to prepare and publish information standards. As we have debated, standards are important for a number of reasons. They can help ensure that information is of high quality, that it is comparable and that confidential information can be stored and transferred safely and securely.

Our aim is for the Secretary of State to set information standards in respect of public health and adult social care services and the board to set standards in respect of NHS services. Indeed, any organisation providing publicly funded health or social care services in England would be required to have regard to those information standards. When the standard is published, there would be accompanying guidance on how to implement it.

As I said, the Bill makes clear that responsibility for preparing and publishing information standards will sit with the Secretary of State or the Commissioning Board. The process that will be followed when the need for a standard is identified is currently being worked through, but we envisage that, in practice, the NHS Commissioning Board will set the standards for the NHS. We are mindful, however, that the Secretary of State is responsible for the health and social care system as a whole. Therefore, it is right that he has the overarching power for both. It could well be that, within the mandate that he sets the board, information standards will feature as something it is tasked to expedite. Of course there is a need to ensure that standards are consistent across the sectors to which they apply.

We are about to move to a group of amendments where I would be happy to address the questions of my noble friend Lady Williams on confidentiality. If she will allow me to do that, I would be happy to follow that course.

Clause 247 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Earl Howe]

348ZA: Clause 251, page 242, line 38, at end insert—
“( ) The Information Centre may charge the Board a reasonable fee in respect of the cost of complying with a direction given by the Board under subsection (1).”

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I shall speak also to the other government amendments in this group, Amendments 348BA, 348BB, 348BC, 348BD, 348BE and 348BF.

The first of these amendments enables the Information Centre to charge the Commissioning Board where the board has directed it to collect information. The next four amendments are drafting amendments to improve and clarify the drafting in Part 9 of the Bill. Government Amendment 348BE is a consequential amendment to ensure that the CQC can continue to be able to require information from the Information Centre to support the CQC’s regulatory functions. Government Amendment 348BF removes a consequential provision from Schedule 20 following a request from the Welsh Assembly Government. I hope that that brief explanation will be enough to persuade noble Lords that these amendments should be accepted and I beg to move.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I have Amendment 348C in this group, which relates to the National Information Governance Board being disbanded and a national information governance committee being formed and being part of the CQC. There is concern over the way that that will happen.

The National Information Governance Board currently advises the Secretary of State on access to confidential patient information without patient consent when it is for medical purposes, under the Health Service (Control of Patient Information) Regulations. These are made under Section 251 of the National Health Service Act 2006 and give rise to applications from researchers for access to confidential patient information. The Patient Information Advisory Group, or PIAG, was established and later became the Ethics and Confidentiality Committee of the National Information Governance Board. This provides advice when people who are not the doctors or professionals involved in the care of a patient wish to access information from medical records that are potentially identifiable without the knowledge or consent of those people. It is permitted legally through the exercise of discretionary powers of the Secretary of State. The Ethics and Confidentiality Committee of the National Information Governance Board has an advisory function. It is not a regulator and has no powers to stop disclosure. It helps disclosers of information to know the risks and whether to seek statutory protection. If they are given that protection, they are protected from liability under the common law duty of confidentiality.

Clause 274 abolishes the National Information Governance Board but also omits Sections 250A to 250D of the 2006 Act. In those sections, one of the functions established for the National Information Governance Board is to advise the Secretary of State on particular matters relating to the processing of patient information by any person. This advisory function will not transfer to the Care Quality Commission under Clause 274(3). The Care Quality Commission might be regarded as not being the ideal home for the governance board for reasons concerning its own expertise and current performance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, I broadly welcome these provisions, which deal with the new Health and Social Care Information Centre and put the existing special health authority on a statutory footing. The centre was established in 2005 by the Labour Government to improve information quality, data standards and access to information, to deliver the information required by front-line services and to support commissioning and clinical audit. The centre has had a large measure of success since its establishment, particularly in developing bedrock quality-improvement initiatives in the NHS—for example, indicators for quality improvement and patient-reported outcomes measures. NHS clinical teams have access to more than 200 indicators that are generally accepted as effective measures of high-quality care.

However, while welcoming the broad intent and purpose of this Section, I note that the provisions increase the directions given to the information centre about when it should and should not publish data and how data should be used. It is clear in this context that there are serious concerns that the Government needs to address among noble Lords, patients and doctors' organisations about patient confidentiality, and about whether the Government's proposals go far enough to protect patient data. These concerns were also voiced in response to the Government's statement on UK life sciences industries in the House on 6 December, in which they announced their intention to share much more patient information with the private and independent sectors in anonymised form to aid medical research and development. As we know, under that initiative from December onwards data regarding 250,000 patients will be released online.

I hope that the Minister will recognise these concerns and the need for what the chief executive of Cancer Research UK called,

“strict safeguards that instil public confidence”.

Clause 256 details when information should and should not be published by the information centre, and in particular that it should not publish data that could reveal a person's identity. Amendment 348B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Walton, would be the ultimate safeguard, but we recognise the need to find a way through that addresses concerns that doctor and GP-patient confidentiality could be harmed and provides safeguards that are strong enough to protect patients. It is certainly worth acknowledging that, if we are able to get the confidentiality issues right, the UK has a huge opportunity to lead the world in health research.

We support Amendment 348A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Kennedy and other noble Lords. It would create an additional duty that would allow the information centre to request the information required to conduct clinical audits. This requirement would make it explicit that the centre can collect information from organisations identified in the Bill as required to undertake national clinical audits, thereby strengthening its current role of collating such information into a duty to collect clinical audit data from a variety of providers. We welcome this.

Finally, in the debate on the UK life sciences industry Statement, my noble friend Lady Thornton underlined the difficulties with using anonymised data and sought reassurances from the Minister on how confidential patient data will be handled, stored and processed. I think it is right that the Minister repeats those assurances in the context of the provisions in the Bill for the information standards and the centre, and I will be grateful if he will do so.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the provisions in Chapter 2 of Part 9 will enable the information centre to become a focal point for health and social care information, linking data together, publishing them anonymously and helping to make information more accessible. I note what the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, had to say on Amendment 348, which we dealt with in the previous group of amendments, but I am grateful to her for her comments.

Amendment 348A seeks to provide a specific power in the Bill for the information centre to be able to require information needed for national clinical audits. Clinical audit is an essential mechanism for improving the quality of care patients receive. However, we do not believe that the amendment is necessary. We have mandated participation in national clinical audits within the National Clinical Audit and Patient Outcomes Programme through the NHS standard contract for acute services. This is reinforced in the operating framework for the NHS in England for 2012-13. In addition, there are already sufficient powers in the Bill for the information centre to be able to require information, where appropriate.

Amendment 348B seeks to prevent the information centre being able to collect information that identifies an individual. I am the first to recognise what a sensitive topic this is. Although my noble friend Lady Williams is not in her place, I hope she will allow me to address the question that she put to me earlier on in this connection.

Patients as a whole expect information about their care to flow between the professionals providing their health and social care to ensure that care is safe and effective as well as for other purposes, such as protecting the health of the general public. For example, PCTs currently use information, including patient-identifiable information, for commissioning. Some national clinical audits, such as the National Joint Registry, use patient-identifiable information to improve the quality and safety of patient care.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked some extremely important questions about the functions of the information centre. The Bill sets out clear provisions controlling how the information centre can publish information. It would publish aggregated information, which is anonymised, and no information that identifies or could identify individual patients would be disclosed by the information centre, other than by dissemination or pursuant to further legal authority. Since its inception, the information centre has introduced strong security controls, published and implemented security policies and published information about its processing as required for compliance with the Department of Health’s information governance framework. It must at all times comply with the Human Rights Act, the Data Protection Act and any other applicable law. The centre would collect identifiable information within a secure environment but, as I have stressed, it would publish it only in anonymised form. This approach has been strongly recommended by several recent reviews, including the 2008 data-sharing review authored by the then Information Commissioner Richard Thomas and Mark Walport from the Wellcome Trust. That recommendation was reiterated in the Academy of Medical Sciences’ review published in January this year.

I agree with the noble Baroness that it is very important to protect identifiable information appropriately. However, as I hope she will accept, it is also critical that we are able to realise the enormous benefits of securely collecting and linking such information and publishing it in a de-identified form, as we intend the information centre should do. This will help professionals and the public better understand the quality and efficiency of services, enhance accountability, help enable people to exercise choice about the services they use and improve those services. In addition, I would like to highlight the safeguard in Clause 256(2)(b), which prohibits the centre from publishing any information it has collected which identifies or could identify an individual.

As I have said, while we do not believe that this amendment is appropriate, we recognise that there have been some concerns around ensuring that confidential information is appropriately protected. We have had, and continue to have, productive discussions with the BMA on this issue and we plan to bring forward amendments on Report that deal with confidential information in a way that balances patient confidentiality with the need effectively to share information across the system. I hope that those assurances will satisfy the noble Baroness.

Amendment 348C would require the appointment of a chair to the National Information Governance Committee, who would report to the Information Commissioner. The purpose of this committee would be to provide advice and assistance to the CQC in discharging its function to monitor information processing practice of health and social care bodies registered by the CQC from April 2013. The National Information Governance Committee is an advisory committee of the CQC, so it would not be appropriate for the chair of the committee to be accountable to an external body, such as the Information Commissioner. In addition, a reporting arrangement of that kind would be inconsistent with the Information Commissioner’s role as the independent and impartial authority responsible for promoting and enforcing the provisions of the Data Protection Act, the Freedom of Information Act and other legislation.

However, I would like to reassure the noble Baroness that the CQC can involve the Information Commissioner where appropriate and close collaboration between the Information Commissioner and the CQC will be important to support relevant organisations fully to comply with the requirements. I hope that those assurances will enable the noble Baroness to feel able comfortably not to press her amendment.

The noble Baroness asked about the Ethics and Confidentiality Committee of the NIGB, which provides essential support for research and other activities by advising the Secretary of State on whether to approve proposals to process confidential information without the need for patient consent, pursuant to the Health Service (Control of Patient Information) Regulations 2002 under Section 251 of the National Health Service Act 2006. We intend that the approval function will in future move to the following bodies: first, a new health research regulator, the HRA, for research approvals; secondly, the NHS Commissioning Board for service management approvals; and, thirdly, the Secretary of State for public health and social care approvals. Each of those bodies will need to put in place arrangements to secure the advice that they need to exercise their approval functions effectively. These arrangements are still being discussed but it seems likely that a body like the Ethics and Confidentiality Committee will continue to be required and officials are discussing future options with the NIGB. I hope that those comments are informative to noble Lords and that they will not press their amendments.

Amendment 348ZA agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Earl Howe]

348BA: Clause 256, page 245, line 18, leave out “the following provisions of this section” and insert “subsection (3)”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Earl Howe]

348BB: Clause 259, page 247, line 31, leave out “other”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Earl Howe]

348BD: Clause 264, page 249, line 37, leave out “its functions” and insert “any function it has under or by virtue of any other provision of this or any other Act”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Earl Howe]

348BE: Schedule 20, page 427, line 16, at end insert—
“Health and Social Care Act 2008 (c.14)In section 64 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (power of the Care Quality Commission to require documents and information etc. from certain persons) in subsection (2)—
(a) omit the “or” after paragraph (d), and(b) after paragraph (e) insert “, or(f) the Health and Social Care Information Centre.””

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. This question brings us right back to the Secretary of State’s powers. I also agree that the procedure in the Bill is complex and I am not sure that it will work. It is not clear at all who will be the arbiter. It seems strange that Monitor has powers to intervene on failure but there does not seem to be the same structure around co-operation and when co-operation fails. This part of the Bill feels like it does not work properly. It is too complex and probably needs another look.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I have listened with great interest to the points that have been made. I feel it would be useful if I first set out how this clause would work and the series of events that it would allow. Then I will try to explain why we believe that the powers it provides are an appropriate and constructive lever within the new system.

The method of intervention set out in Clause 285 needs to be considered as one of a range of intervention powers and levers available to the Secretary of State in order to ensure that the system operates in the best interests of patients and that he complies with his duties in relation to the health service. These include the proactive setting of objectives for the health service through the annual mandate to the board and setting requirements through the standing rules. The Secretary of State also will have a duty to keep the effectiveness of arm’s-length bodies under review.

In addition, the Secretary of State will have more extreme intervention powers such as the ability to remove the chair of an organisation, where they have failed adequately to perform their functions, and the ability, under specified circumstances, to give directions to an arm’s-length body where the Secretary of State considers it has failed to discharge those functions, or has failed to discharge them properly. Clause 285 should be viewed as an additional power alongside the others conferred on the Secretary of State by the NHS Act and this Bill. Of course, should the Secretary of State employ his powers as set out in Clause 285 and the problem persists, then where he considers that one of the bodies is failing to discharge its functions properly, he would be able to exercise his powers of direction.

The Bill places new duties to co-operate, in addition to modifying existing duties, so as to ensure that all of the arm’s-length bodies in the system, such as the Commissioning Board and Monitor, are required to co-operate with one another. We wanted to do more to encourage co-operation in the new system, partly out of recognition that the current system would benefit significantly from greater co-operation, but also because the new arrangements will create an even greater need for co-operation given the strongly autonomous and interdependent arm’s-length bodies that will be created.

The clause sets out powers for the Secretary of State to take action in response to a breach of the relevant duties of co-operation. It provides a mechanism for pressing organisations to resolve disputes in the unlikely event—we hope and trust that it will be unlikely—that two or more organisations covered by the clause fail to co-operate. If the Secretary of State believes that the duties of co-operation listed in this clause have been or are being breached, or are at significant risk of being breached, he will have a new ability to write formally and publicly to the organisation in question. If the bodies continue to breach the duty following the notice and the breach is having a detrimental effect on the performance of the health service, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, pointed out, then the Secretary of State will have a further ability to lay an order, specifying that each body could take certain actions only with the approval of the other body. This measure would be subject to affirmative approval by both Houses of Parliament and could last for up to a year. That means that organisations in dispute would be strongly reminded of their interdependence as part of a national system. As a matter of last resort, if agreement could not be reached, either party would be able to invoke independent arbitration under Arbitration Act arrangements. In this way, the organisations in question will be pressed to resolve their difference without recourse to the Secretary of State and the Department of Health.

This is an important element of our policy. We want arm’s-length bodies to focus on the functions conferred on them by Parliament, the objectives set for them by Government and the relationships with other organisations that will help them to achieve their goals. We do not want them placed in a position where they are trying to secure relative advantage in the system by using the Secretary of State as a means of determining the outcome of disputes. The existence of the order-making power will both help to preserve the autonomy of organisations and encourage them to work constructively with one another.

I emphasise that this is a precautionary power and we expect it to be used only in very exceptional circumstances. It is also important to note that the powers and duties described in this clause are about co-operative behaviours. They do not in any way undermine the independence of Monitor or the CQC to make specific regulatory decisions in relation to another arm’s-length body. For example, the Secretary of State could not use the provisions to constrain Monitor from taking action against anticompetitive purchasing by the NHS Commissioning Board.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, if these bodies are strongly autonomous, as the Minister has said, can they not just tell the Secretary of State to get lost?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, that is the whole point of this clause. The Secretary of State must have levers at his disposal. Even if he does not use them, the fact that he has them will be a clear signal to bodies that they must co-operate in the way that Parliament—if the Bill is approved by Parliament—intends. As I said, we have identified gaps in the current system that need to be resolved because it is important that arm’s-length bodies that have functions directly conferred upon them take those functions seriously and do not resort constantly to arbitration by the Secretary of State or the department.

We expect that the vast majority of differences between organisations will be resolved by the organisations themselves and that this power will be used rarely, if at all. Nevertheless, it is important that the power exists. The fact that failure to co-operate could have public and highly embarrassing consequences will strengthen the incentive for organisations to co-operate effectively in the interests of patients.

We believe that this approach strikes the right balance between the need for the Secretary of State to fulfil his stewardship role within the system, being able to intervene to ensure that disputes are resolved, with the need to ensure that organisations are responsible and accountable for their own decisions and actions. These powers allow the Secretary of State to ensure that solutions to problems are found in a timely manner, without him or her stepping in to specify and micromanage what those solutions should look like.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked me a number of specific and detailed questions. I will take up her invitation to write to her on those and copy other noble Lords in. With those assurances, I hope that she will feel able to allow the clause to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 285 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I just wish to add two questions of my own to the list that the noble Baroness asked. Has the Department of Health now resolved the issues around future asset ownership in respect of PCT and SHA estates? Within that, does that include LIFT schemes and PFI?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I hope I can answer the question of the noble Baroness very quickly. Clinical commissioning groups will be statutory bodies. They will be legally and operationally separate from GP practices. As such, if a clinical commissioning group occupies property that is under the ownership of that group, it will be under statutory ownership. It will not be open to GPs to sell such property at a cut price, or at any other price, to GP practices to enable such practices to pocket the profits. What the noble Baroness outlined sounded to me very much like embezzlement from the state. It will be no more possible for what she envisages to happen than for a primary care trust to sell a property and have its officers pocket the proceeds. I am a little mystified by the scenario that she has painted.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

May I make it clear that I am not suggesting that general practitioners will embezzle funds from the NHS? I am just concerned about who will hold the deeds of such property at the time of transfer. Once the ownership is transferred, the disposal of those assets rests with the new owner. We have seen foundation trusts that have, in rationalising their services, quite rightly sold off sometimes large pieces of estate that have been very valuable and become housing land and so on. That money has then gone back into NHS services. I wanted clarification that the same thing would occur.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, first of all, the Bill does not provide for PCT property to be transferred to GP practices. The policy on where property may be transferred is still under development but we have powers in the Bill to transfer property to the appropriate body in the new architecture. The noble Baroness will realise that many decisions around this have to be taken locally on a case-by-case basis. We have powers in the Bill to create schemes with enough flexibility to allow this.

If, for the sake of argument, a clinical commissioning group owns property which is surplus to requirements, it will have to go through all the proper processes overseen by its own audit committee and its governing body to ensure that public assets are disposed of for value and in a proper and arm’s-length way. Where a conflict of interest rears its head, the provisions governing conflicts of interest will cut in. It will not be open to the clinicians who have authority within the clinical commissioning group, or, indeed, practices which are members of the clinical commissioning group, to benefit in an improper way. It will have to be done openly. If a GP practice were to wish to acquire property that is owned by the CCG, there will be transparent processes to make sure that this is done in the correct fashion. In these circumstances, the property deeds are transferred to the clinical commissioning group as a corporate entity. They are not transferred to the individual GP members, and once transferred to CCGs, if the governing body wished to dispose of property, that, as I say, has to be done in accordance with the same safeguards that currently apply to PCTs. I hope that that reassures the noble Baroness.

[Lord Mawson]

I encourage the Minister to look very carefully at the practicalities of this because I can think of at least two or three examples of health centres in which I have been involved where it did come down to the property, the ownership and the GP—I can think of one now—where one brought together all the practitioners and key community groups to secure development. The person who stopped that development was the GP because of their interests and pension arrangements in the building. Therefore, in my view, it is important to be very careful about these practical arrangements if we want integration to occur.

[Earl Howe]

I suspect that the example the noble Lord has in mind involved GP practice premises rather than property owned by an NHS body such as a primary care trust. I suggest that the two cases are rather different. However, I take the noble Lord’s point that integration of services at a delivery level can often be very advantageous to patient communities. Some of the most successful examples that I have seen are of practices where many facilities are available on site for the patient. We are seeing more and more of these being created around the country. We should encourage that.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

I am most grateful to the Minister for that response. This has been a short but very useful debate. I have an anxiety that we may need to refer back to it in the future, although I hope that I am proved wrong. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Earl Howe]

352: Clause 294, page 265, line 28, after “means” insert “—
(a) ”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I rise to support the noble Lord. Earlier today, he made a very pertinent point on Lords reform, and this one seems equally pertinent. Before I do so, perhaps I may take this opportunity to say that my noble friend Lady Gould has just vacated the Deputy Speaker’s seat. That was her last session, and I wanted to say to her—I am sure on behalf of the whole House—what a wonderful job she has done. She has accompanied us through many pieces of legislation, often very late at night, always with tolerance and very efficiently, as befitting a former fearsome organiser of the Labour Party, if I may say so.

[Earl Howe]

And never more smoothly or efficiently than in today's Sitting.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

It would be churlish, then, to spoil the atmosphere by commenting overall on the Bill because, as the noble Lord suggested, it is open to us to have a kind of Second Reading speech, but I will resist—to the benefit of noble Lords opposite, if not my noble friends.

The noble Lord put it very well. The fact is that the reforms are being enacted; they are taking place at this moment. The Government have not waited for legislation. Primary care trusts have effectively been abolished. The new system is coming into being. We have shadow clinical commissioning groups, although they cover much larger areas than originally envisaged, so it would be quite right and proper for early post-legislative scrutiny to take place. Because the changes go to the heart of the National Health Service, I should have thought that it would have been useful to have an annual report and to allow Parliament to debate it.

I invite the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, to go one step further. He will know that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has always been fond of sunset clauses. He moved many such amendments when in opposition. I should have thought that the Bill deserves a sunset clause. I would give it two years, because then, if the coalition survives that long, the noble Earl will be back to put right all the problems that he is now enacting.

On that note of Christmas spirit, I invite the noble Earl to accept the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is addressing us in the guise of Christmas spirit, it is well disguised from most of us.

However, it may be worth reflecting at this juncture that this is the 41st day that the Bill has been debated on the Floor of this House or that of the other place—a quarter of all sitting days in this calendar year. I thank all parliamentarians, especially noble Lords, who participated in subjecting the Bill to such unprecedented scrutiny. It is a better Bill as a result; the Government are better informed as a result; and I look forward to our further debates in 2012.

I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, that parliamentary scrutiny of legislation and the actions of government are of paramount importance. The Bill has, as I said, received a huge amount of parliamentary scrutiny during its passage, and I have no expectation that this will stop following Royal Assent—and nor should it. Ministers will continue to provide information to Parliament—for example, in response to Parliamentary Questions and Select Committees. I am sure that we will be providing a lot of information both on the implementation of the Bill and on health and social care more widely in the months and years ahead.