Children and Families Bill

Debate between Earl Attlee and Baroness Greengross

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Greengross (CB)]

My Lords, the purpose of my amendment is to specify the territorial limits to where councils are expected to fund arrangements. I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Protecting children and helping to provide for their future is, I am sure we all agree, one of the most important things that councils do. I therefore wholeheartedly welcome most of the provisions in the Bill, but I am concerned about certain measures in Clause 58 that would enable local authorities to arrange special educational provision for a young person with an EHC plan outside England and Wales. This clause enables local authorities to make provision in an institution that specialises in providing for special educational needs and gives them power to pay for or contribute to the costs of the child or young person who attends such an institution, which might, quite rightly, include travelling and accommodation costs for someone to accompany the child or young person.

This clause gives local authorities the power—not a duty—to make this provision, but demands on resources at the moment, as we all know, make it difficult to envisage the circumstances when local authorities would realistically be able to arrange special educational provision outside the UK. I am concerned that, without the extent of this clause being specified, local authorities might be expected to arrange provision in countries outside the United Kingdom. It might well be in the United States, for example, or in the Middle East, and this would be extremely expensive for a local authority to provide. It would certainly raise expectations that the local authority would do so. Parents may take cases to appeal if my amendment is not accepted. The amendment would provide for special educational needs provision to be arranged elsewhere in the United Kingdom, but not in other countries. I think this is reasonable, and I beg to move.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, for moving her amendment, although initially I thought it did not have the effect that she desired. Children and young people should be placed in the right setting to meet their needs. It is right that if the appropriate setting is in either Scotland or Northern Ireland, local authorities should have the power to place children and young people there and meet or contribute to the costs of the placement. The Bill as drafted would allow for such placements.

In line with what the noble Baroness said, Clause 58 is drafted in the way it is, mentioning England and Wales in particular, because the Bill covers England and Wales. Clause 58 allows local authorities to place children and young people with EHC plans anywhere else in the world, including Scotland and Northern Ireland, and to meet or contribute to the costs of the placement. I acknowledge the noble Baroness’s point about the costs, but they can still do it. There are a very few cases where children have been placed outside the UK. Unfortunately, the effect of the noble Baroness’ amendment would be that local authorities would still be able to place children and young people in schools or colleges in Scotland and Northern Ireland but they would not be able to pay or contribute towards the costs.

On the noble Baroness’s aim of specifying the limits of what local authorities are expected to provide, she is right to seek to clarify the extent of local authorities’ responsibilities for arranging provision outside the UK. As she said, this is a power, not a duty. It replicates the current arrangement and does not place a demand on local authorities. I hope, with that explanation, the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment in due course.

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[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am always delighted to have meetings with noble Lords and I am sure that my noble friend Lady Northover would be delighted to have a meeting on this and perhaps look into it in a bit more detail.

[Baroness Greengross]

I thank the Minister for his reply and thank noble Lords who supported the measure and understood what I was trying to say about raising expectations and clever lawyers appealing decisions, which might lead to very difficult situations for local authorities. I share the view that local authorities should do their very best to obtain the correct provision, certainly as regards Scotland. The amendment would make it much simpler to envisage Scotland being part of this. I would be happy to meet the Minister and colleagues who feel as I do. The matter just needs clarifying and limiting. In current circumstances, I should not like to see a local authority being almost put on trial for something that, realistically, it is not expected to be able to do, much as it might wish to. I thank the noble Earl for his reply.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as I said, I would be delighted to have a meeting. However, it may help the Committee if I point out that this is a provision in the 1996 Act, so we do not think that it will increase demand from this point.

[Baroness Greengross]

I thank the Minister, but I would still like to take up the offer of a meeting. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Greengross]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 198 to 205, that is, all the amendments in this group. One of the reasons I am particularly interested in this issue is because I have been heavily involved in the Care Bill from the pre-legislative scrutiny stage to the present. One of our concerns throughout that consideration was for children and young people who are just emerging from childhood, so to speak, and get caught in the not quite adult/not quite child time of life when the system sometimes fails them. Therefore, it is important to ensure that we get things right, in particular in relation to special educational needs and education, health and care plans.

These amendments would ensure that other organisations that might need to be involved in this area would be responsible for delivering the services described in the plans and for making sure that they actually do what they say. For many, schools will be the main day-to-day contact point but colleges will often be involved as well. At present, a number of provisions apply to schools but not to colleges, all types of alternative provision and pupil referral units. My amendment would place the same duty on FE colleges as on all types of maintained school settings.

Clause 64 places a duty on schools to inform the parents of a child without an EHC plan and/or the young person without an EHC plan when special education provision is being made for them. Without these amendments, young people up to the age of 18 who do not have EHC plans who attend school and/or their parents will be entitled to be informed, but young people of the same age who are students at FE colleges will not. We have to remember that from September 2013 young people will be able to attend FE colleges from the age of 14, so this issue applies to a number of young people.

I understand that the Government are somewhat reluctant to place any additional duties on FE colleges, but my concern is primarily with the children and young people concerned rather than with the colleges, I am afraid. If they are to be at the heart of the new system, the information provided should not vary in this way according to the type of institution that they happen to attend.

Clause 65 places a duty on schools to prepare a report containing special educational needs information. This information concerns the implementation of the governing body’s or proprietor’s policy for pupils at the school with special educational needs, the arrangements for the admission of disabled pupils to the school, the steps taken to prevent less favourable treatment of disabled pupils, the facilities provided to assist access to the school by disabled pupils and the accessibility plan which schools must publish under the Equality Act 2010. In a similar way to Clause 64, the amendments, which are very straightforward, would simply place the same duty on FE colleges or similar institutions as on maintained schools. I beg to move.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I shall respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, who moved the amendment on further education institutions. I thank her for explaining her intention behind them.

I fully agree with the noble Baroness on the importance of special educational provision in colleges, and I am pleased to have this opportunity to explain why we have not extended the duties in Clauses 64 and 65 to the further education sector and to reassure noble Lords that this does not undermine the 0 to 25 coverage of the new system, which has been warmly welcomed by many during the debate on this part.

The Bill creates a reformed SEN system spanning the age range from 0 to 25 and extends important new rights to young people. Within that context, we must acknowledge that settings are not all the same. Schools and FE colleges differ in the experience that they offer their students, in their size, the breadth of their provision and in the age range they cater for.

I turn first to Amendments 198, 199, 200 and 201 which would place a new duty on FE institutions to tell young people if they are receiving special educational provision. It might be helpful to clarify for the Committee that the duty on schools in Clause 64 was originally put in place to ensure that parents were made aware when their child was in receipt of special educational provision. As noble Lords will know, this Bill gives new rights to young people once they are over compulsory school age—generally speaking those who are 16 and over—rather than their parents. Any new duty on colleges would therefore require them to inform the young person that they are in receipt of special educational provision and not their parents.

Young people in further education typically follow more tailored, individual study programmes than they had at school. Colleges will discuss with young people directly possible study programmes and the support they will need to complete those programmes. Discussion about that support may or may not include an explicit reference to SEN.

The noble Baroness talked about young people not quite being children and not quite being adults. For some young people, taking up a place at college is an opportunity for a fresh start, particularly if they felt a failure at school. The label “SEN” might be unhelpful in some circumstances, and the college will want to be sensitive about handling this. The Association of Colleges has expressed concern about this amendment, saying that it,

“risks treating young people, many of whom are sensitive about their educational achievement, the same as children”.

It goes on to say that,

“colleges go to great lengths to handle such issues sensitively by providing an initial assessment for all students to provide education that fits people’s individual needs”.

The AoC is also concerned about the sheer numbers involved. For example, one college in Essex reported to the AoC that it considers that 1,800 of its students are receiving special educational provision. That is a very significant additional burden on colleges.

The noble Baroness suggested that Clause 64 creates an anomaly. Young people in FE colleges do not need to be told that they are receiving SEN provision, but young people in sixth form must be told. She suggested that that was unfair. I understand the noble Baroness’s point in that regard. The Bill creates a distinction between young people in school and young people in college. There are two reasons why that is so. First, in the further education environment, a young person is more likely to find the label “SEN” unhelpful, and colleges are used to using their professional judgment about labelling support.

Secondly, we have sought not to place duties unnecessarily on the further education sector. School sixth forms are already under a duty to inform parents where a child is receiving special educational provision. Clause 64 changes this duty so that they must inform the young person directly.

I now turn to Amendments 202 to 205, relating to the requirement for FE institutions to publish an SEN information report setting out information about their policies for children with SEN and disabilities. Clause 65 replaces Sections 317(5) and 317(6) of the Education Act 1996 and is a well established duty on schools, but there are no existing similar legal duties on colleges, and we do not believe it is necessary to legislate for a new duty in this area. As the Association of Colleges points out, this information is readily available, as colleges already produce it for their websites and prospectuses. It is also the case that colleges will have to produce this information as part of their local offer. Colleges are under a duty in this Bill to co-operate with local authorities to produce a local offer. This includes details of their approach to teaching young people with SEN, how they adapt their curriculum and learning environment, how facilities can be accessed and what support is available to young people with SEN. More detail is set out in Schedule 1 to the draft local offer regulations.

I hope I have provided the assurance that the noble Baroness seeks that we have good reasons not to place those additional duties on further education colleges. I hope she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Greengross]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his very considered reply, but I am not really happy with it because, as I mentioned, some of these young people will be 14. Parents with children with special educational needs are not usually immune from wanting to continue to know what is going on and to be reassured that their children—or young people—are having the tailored type of education and healthcare that they need. Therefore, I will have to take this back, look at it again with the local authorities that are also worried about this, and come back on Report.

[Earl Attlee]

I have a little bit more to add. Young people aged 14 to 15 who go to college may be doing so for a different reason, but I would be happy to think about what more we could say in the code of practice about the particular consideration that further education colleges should give to students in this age bracket, including the importance of keeping the family informed.

[Baroness Greengross]

That is very helpful, and I thank the noble Earl. I will still take this back and consider in detail all the points that he raised. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Transport: Bus Stops

Debate between Earl Attlee and Baroness Greengross

Monday 22nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002—TSRGD—include powers to provide bus stop clearways, which restrict parking and loading where appropriate. Those traffic authorities granted civil parking enforcement have powers under the Traffic Management Act 2004 to enforce against contraventions. Elsewhere, this is a matter for the police.

[Baroness Greengross]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Would he not agree that it is very regrettable that a number of local authorities do not seem to use their existing powers to make sure that the rules are enforced? A lot of transport consumer bodies have raised this issue because many disabled people, lots of older people and young parents with buggies find that they cannot get on to what are now generally accessible buses because there is a car parked in the way. Sometimes cyclists come up very quickly on the nearside and make them very scared. This is not working properly. Is there anything the Minister can do to make sure that local authorities use their enforcement powers?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we encourage local authorities to use the powers available to them. A key point about bus stop clearways is that you do not need a traffic regulation order to set one up so they are easy for local authorities to implement.