Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Duke of Wellington and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Report stage
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Just to reiterate, Ofwat will look closely at the impact this will have on long-term incentive plans. I cannot give the noble Lord any firm detail on the specific question he asks, because Ofwat is currently looking at this. Perhaps this is something we could pick up so that I can understand his specific concerns in more detail, and we can feed those into Ofwat’s current discussions. At the moment I cannot give him any more firm information than I have already given. If the noble Lord wants to continue this discussion so that I can feed it back to Ofwat, I shall be happy to do so. I do not know what else I can offer at the moment, because I cannot give the noble Lord a firm answer.

I am going over time, but I shall look quickly at what else I need to say. Amendment 11, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, would ensure that Ofwat’s rules on remuneration and governance came into force within six months of Royal Assent. Ofwat will be responsible for developing and implementing those rules but, as the Secretary of State will already be consulted through the process, we do not believe there is a need for a statutory instrument to be laid to bring the rules into effect.

We think that allowing Ofwat to set rules in this way, rather than through legislation, will enable those standards to be more easily amended where it is appropriate to do so in the future. I hope that that reassures the noble Lord. Ofwat does intend to implement the first set of rules following its statutory consultation, so this is not something that is going to drag on. We are keen for the rules to be in place as soon as possible after Royal Assent.

Amendment 57, in the name of my noble friend Lord Sikka, is about involvement in Ofwat’s board. We believe that it is the responsibility of Ofwat to determine who is on its board and who has voting rights for board meetings. There are already a number of ways in which consumers can feed into Ofwat’s regulatory work.

Finally, Amendment 58, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, is about water company borrowing. At sensible levels, debt can be an appropriate way to fund investment for essential infrastructure in the longer term. Ofwat is already taking steps to monitor debt levels as part of its report on financial resilience. Companies will need to access additional debt and equity to support the price review 2024 investment programme. I do, however, agree with the noble Lord that more can be done to ensure that debt levels are more closely monitored in future, and I would like to reassure him that, as he expected, that the independent commission will look at this.

Following our meeting, I also know that the noble Lord understands that this is a critical point in time for the water industry and its investors, and we have previously discussed the importance of ensuring that we do not jeopardise water companies’ ability to secure investment before Ofwat’s final determinations are made at the end of this year. Today, Barclays reported in the Times on the deterioration in investor sentiment following the publication of the draft determinations.

I therefore trust that the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, is reassured that the Government take this issue very seriously, and that he and other noble Lords understand that introducing further rules on borrowing through this Bill is not appropriate for the water industry at this time. That is what I want to stress—“at this time”.

I have run out of time, but I thank noble Lords. This has been a long group and a lot has been discussed. I hope that they will feel able not to press their amendments.

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, I am still certain in my own mind that the environmental voice needs to be louder in decision-making in this industry in future. I was considerably reassured by the Minister explaining how environmental considerations are central to so much of the current structure; however, one has to admit that, in practice, that has not been very evident.

I must admit that I became a bit concerned when the Minister was commenting on Amendments 6 and 7 and board representation. She emphasised more than once the importance of the consumer voice on boards, panels and committees, and she never mentioned the environmental voice. I must say that I then slightly worried about the reassurances I had previously received from her. However, one has to be pragmatic about these things. I think that my amendment is important, and I am grateful to the Liberal Democrats for apparently being prepared to support it. I noticed that the Conservatives, the Official Opposition, did not comment on it and therefore, with great regret, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their suggested amendments and the points raised in relation to penalties and the water restoration fund.

First, I will talk to Amendment 45, tabled by the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington. While I acknowledge the intention behind this amendment, which seeks to strengthen Ofwat’s enforcement powers, we do not believe that automatic penalties are appropriate for the obligations which Ofwat is responsible for enforcing. Ofwat’s role as the economic regulator is distinct from the role of environmental regulators and from the permitting regime for environmental activities. Offences that may be subject to automatic penalties and outlined on the face of the Bill, such as pollution control, abstraction, impounding and drought, fall within the remit of the Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales. Extending the enforcement of these areas to Ofwat would therefore duplicate the responsibilities of the regulators and create more complexity in the current system.

Furthermore, Ofwat’s investigation and enforcement activities relate largely to breaches of core licence conditions, which are highly complex matters that are not fixed to singular assets or permits but rather systemic failings right across the company’s operations. Investigations often require significant and detailed evidence to be gathered, potentially from a number of sites, to establish whether a breach has occurred. This can take months to conclude and does not lend itself to an automatic penalty.

Ofwat has existing appropriate powers to impose financial penalties. For example, the Water Industry Act 1991 enables Ofwat to take enforcement action, including imposing financial penalties on companies if they are in breach of their statutory duties or licence conditions.

Finally, I remind the House that the independent commission will consider the roles and responsibilities of the water industry regulators and how we can ensure our regulators operate as effectively as possible. This is something that may be discussed in some depth by the commission. The Government will therefore not accept this amendment, but I hope the noble Duke feels reassured on the points about automatic penalties.

I will take Amendments 46 and 47, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, and by the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, together. I very much appreciate the intention behind the amendments, but we do not believe it is necessary to define a mechanism for spending the money received through fines in law. A water restoration fund was launched in April this year, and this arrangement does not require legislation. As we have heard, the water restoration fund serves as a mechanism to direct water company fines and penalties into water environment improvement projects. We feel that defining a water restoration fund in law would instil inflexibilities regarding the scope of the fines available to include within the fund and how the money gathered from fines could be spent. We believe that retaining flexibility is important to ensure funding programmes deliver value for money.

As for the devolved elements of the noble Duke’s amendment, water is a devolved policy area, so it is for the Welsh Government to determine the extent to which a water restoration fund should apply in Wales.

What has come across in the debate, and what came across strongly in Committee, is the recognition that investment in the water industry will be absolutely critical to improving the existing poor standards. The Government are continuing to work with His Majesty’s Treasury on the continued reinvestment of water company fines and penalties in water environment improvement. We are working with the Treasury on this specific issue because we recognise its importance. As this is ongoing work and discussion, we will not be able to accept the amendments today. I thank noble Lords for the debate, and hope that they have been reassured by my comments.

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that explanation. The point of Amendment 45 was only that I was advised by the Public Bill Office that I had to table it to make Amendment 47 make sense—parliamentary drafting not being one of my specialities. However, the underlying point, which I share completely with the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, is that we want to see all the fines levied on the water industry reinvested in ensuring improvements to the clean water environment. That is what we are all trying to do. I suspect that the Minister would support that, in theory, and I wish her well with her discussions with His Majesty’s Treasury. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Duke of Wellington and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, once again I thank noble Lords for their amendments and for taking part in this debate. I start by emphasising that we expect all water companies to reduce all pollution incidents, in line with their legal duties.

I turn first to Amendment 30, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, which seeks to apply the duty to produce pollution incident reduction plans to water-only companies. Initially, it might be useful to explain why our focus has been on water and sewerage companies only. This is because most pollution incidents arise from sewage incidents, not water supply incidents. We were concerned that, by widening the scope, we could end up diluting the focus of the plans, so that actions were not tailored to the most serious pollution incidents. That is the thinking: the Government want to keep the focus of these plans on sewage incidents, which is why we are not accepting the amendment. Having said that, there have been some very interesting comments around this and I would be very interested to hear some wider thoughts on Amendment 30. Clearly, the noble Baroness is unwell at the moment and is not in her place, but I hope that other noble Lords will go back to her and see whether she would be happy to meet to discuss this further: I think it is something we could pick up, following Committee.

I move now to Amendments 31 and 36, also tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, and Amendments 32, 39 and 40, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, which speak to the implementation of measures identified in pollution incident reduction plans. I thank the noble Baroness for her clear introduction and the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, and my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone for their comments on this amendment.

Clearly, it is really important that we ensure water companies are taking decisive action to reduce pollution incidents. I want to highlight that the provision already requires water companies to report each year on progress made in implementing pollution incident reduction measures. This will create an unparalleled level of transparency that will further enable both regulators and the general public to hold water companies to account. Where pollution incident reduction plans do not meet the statutory criteria set out by legislation, the Environment Agency will be able to take enforcement action. This will include ensuring compliance with the duty for the plan to provide an assessment of progress in implementing the measures.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, was trying to understand why this was not something that we accepted. I can reassure her that it has nothing to do with it being used as a bargaining chip—absolutely not. The big concern is that, if we introduce a duty to implement the measures in the pollution incident reduction plans, this could imply an unusual sub-delegation of powers to the water companies, whereby they would effectively be able to create enforceable duties on themselves. We are concerned that this would then have the perverse outcome of incentivising companies to produce less ambitious plans to mitigate the risk of enforcement action. That is one of the fundamental concerns in a nutshell, and it is why we are not going to accept these amendments. If the noble Baroness has any suggestions, I would be very happy to hear them.

I turn now to Amendment 34A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, which speaks to the important matter of waterways in national parks. The Government agree that national parks form a vital part of our environmental heritage. In line with this, the Government will seek to use the powers in the Levelling-Up and Regeneration Act 2023 —I still have the scars on my back—to ensure that relevant authorities, including water companies, deliver better outcomes in protected landscapes. We are in the preliminary stages of developing those regulations, to ensure that authorities deliver the better outcomes that we need. The idea is that they will provide a more holistic approach, conserving and enhancing the purposes and special qualities of our protected landscapes.

We have also set an expectation that Ofwat should challenge water companies to prioritise improvements in national parks. We are expecting considerable investment over the next price review period, to improve water and sewerage assets discharging into national parks. This, of course, will include the iconic Lake Windermere, which we have heard much about. United Utilities was mentioned in relation to this. Noble Lords might be interested to know that I met with a representative of UU last week and discussed issues around the environment and improving nature—so there is work going on with the water companies behind the scenes in this specific area.

However, the Government consider it important that pollution incident reduction plans should identify actions to address pollution incidents right across England and Wales; the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, made exactly this point. A statutory hierarchy of priority areas risks deprioritising pollution incident reduction plans in other areas, so we have to be very careful that we do not do that, because that bathing waters, for example, in other areas could be impacted. For this reason, the Government will not be accepting this amendment, but clearly I want to stress we do take our protected landscapes very seriously.

I turn now to Amendment 35 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. I fully recognise her desire to ensure that we see a reduction in the environmental risk posed by pollution incidents. This is why Clause 2 already requires water companies to address environmental risks in their pollution incident reduction plans. The clause requires water companies to set out the measures they will take to reduce the frequency and seriousness of pollution incidents.

Risk to the environment is already used, among other important factors, to determine the seriousness of a pollution incident in the Environment Agency’s incident categorisation process. This is the framework that water companies are required to refer to when they develop their plans. Therefore, by requiring water companies to report on plans to reduce the seriousness of pollution incidents, we are already requiring them to report on and develop measures to reduce the risk to the environment. While we understand the noble Baroness’s intention, the Government believe that because of the reasons I have just set out the amendment is not necessary.

Finally, I turn to Amendments 41 and 42 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, which seek to impose requirements around reporting against pollution incident reduction plans. I reassure him that Clause 2 already requires water companies to publish an assessment of their progress in implementing previous plans. Requiring more frequent reporting would be unlikely to allow water companies sufficient time to implement the lessons learned from previous pollution incidents.

I also reiterate that we expect water companies to be fully accountable when developing their plans and implementing the proposals in them. If a plan does not adequately address the statutory provisions required by the Bill or by broader legal requirements, the Environment Agency will take appropriate enforcement action. The Government therefore do not propose to accept these amendments, but I thank the noble Lord for his suggestion.

I will clarify the strategic policy statement. The key point is that it is directed to Ofwat, not to the water companies. The Government’s strategic priorities for Ofwat include the need for companies to prioritise actions to reduce pollution and considerably improve their environmental performance. The SPS sets general strategic requirements for Ofwat and does not create specific measures, as we expect, under the pollution incident reduction plans.

I thank noble Lords for their input into this discussion and for their suggested amendments.

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

As the noble Baroness sits down, I must say that I did not find her arguments for not accepting a duty to implement to be very convincing. I therefore wonder if she would at least be prepared to meet the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and me between now and Report to see if, between us, we can put together some amendment that might be acceptable to the Government.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I completely understand. This is not a straightforward area, and I would be absolutely delighted to meet the noble Lords to see if we can find a way forward.

Independent Water Commission

Debate between Duke of Wellington and Baroness Hayman of Ullock

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The commission will focus on regulation, among other things, and I urge noble Lords to input into that part. Clearly, regulation is an area of particular concern. We need to look at how it was possible for water companies to have managed to get into such appalling debt; the commission will want to look at that very carefully.

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, I said yesterday in Committee on the Water Bill that I very much welcome this review and congratulate the Government on having instituted it. Perhaps I could probe the Minister on a particular point about the structure of regulation. In the other place last week, the Secretary of State said:

“The Commission will conduct a root-and-branch review of the water sector’s regulatory system”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/10/24; col. 280.]


However, in the press release, among the listed objectives of the commission are:

“Better regulation: rationalising and clarifying requirements for companies … Empowered regulators: ensuring regulators are effective in holding water companies accountable”.


I hope that within the scope of the commission is the question of whether the structure of regulation is correct, in that it is divided principally between Ofwat and the Environment Agency, and whether it would not be more appropriate to have a single regulator for such an important group of monopoly companies.