Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Duke of Wellington Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

I look forward to hearing from the noble Lords, Lord Remnant and Lord Sikka, whose amendments seek to ensure that rules made by this authority can be scrutinised by Parliament. The amendment of the noble Lords, Lord Roborough and Lord Blencathra, seeks to set a six-month time limit for publication of the rules under new Section 35B. Finally in this group, Amendment 101, from the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, seeks to give the authority the power to curb excessive dividends and empower stakeholders to object to excessive dividend payments.

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, first, I congratulate the Government on having set up, last week, the review under Sir Jon Cunliffe. That is an excellent move by the Government; a very respected individual will carry out the review, and a number of us have been asking for this for a while. I really think the Government have made a wise decision.

I want to comment on Amendment 2. I have sympathy with “must” rather than “may”, but I have a reservation about the then wording, “must issue rules”. It seems to me that it is necessary for the authority to issue what I would prefer to call “guidance” rather than “rules”. That would give a certain flexibility to individual companies—no two companies will ever have the same set of circumstances, either among their executive management or in the environment in which they are operating. I ask the Government to consider changing the wording of the clause, so that it reads: “The Authority must issue guidance about the arrangements made by relevant undertakers”.

There is no doubt that the water companies have abused the total independence they have had to date around setting remuneration and everything associated with it. They are monopolies, and I think they have gone too far. Many people have been rather dismayed to see the levels of executive remuneration. I ask the Minister to consider changing “rules” to “guidance”. That would be a great improvement.

On Amendment 3, in a light-hearted manner I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, a misprint, where his amendment refers to “renumeration” rather than “remuneration”. I am sure that that is an oversight which he will have already noticed.

There is a good point in the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, in his proposed new Section 35B(1B)(b), about the importance of attracting, motivating and retaining persons of sufficient quality to work in the industry. We must all remember that what we all want is better-run water companies. I do not think we should be tying too tightly the hands of remuneration committees and the board in general in how they attract and retain executives. I am very persuaded by that particular aspect of the noble Lord’s amendment, but I worry about seeking to define too closely exactly how water companies should make their remuneration arrangements.

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[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I start by reminding the Committee that I have an experience, rather than an interest, as I was a non-executive director for a number of years on the board of Yorkshire Water. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, that I never had a bonus during that time, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, has explained.

This group of amendments follows on neatly from the previous discussion about performance-related pay and the remuneration of senior directors of water and wastewater companies, so I thought it was worthwhile to draw out a bit more of the debate around this issue. The fundamental problem lies in the fact that water and wastewater companies are regulated by a number of different institutions. Ofwat is the economic regulator and, because of the way that the water Act was written, is primarily looking at the financial performance of the water companies. That inevitably leads to a disregard for the environmental outcomes of water companies as a priority. Consumers, who see that their rivers, lakes and coasts are being heavily polluted by these water companies, are astounded to see the same water companies giving huge bonuses to their directors. That is because the two issues are not related in the mind of Ofwat. That is why my party wants a single regulator for water companies, so that all the issues that are the responsibility of water and wastewater companies are taken into account. Part of that debate was reflected in the first group of amendments, discussed earlier.

We need to remind ourselves that remuneration in companies is decided by boards of directors. They will look at the financial objectives of the company and the outcome of the price review agreed by Ofwat and come to conclusions, whether or not objectives have been achieved or considerable benefit to the company accrued by the actions of directors.

That is part of the problem. As the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, has attempted to describe, the price review is a tussle of words and figures between the companies on the one hand and Ofwat on the other. I remember the discussions. If you are in a company and you want to make sure there is a good outcome for your owners and shareholders, you make sure that the submissions you make in a price review to Ofwat enable profits to be made. That is the whole purpose of a private company. It is at the heart of all the discussions we are having about water companies, their performance and their remuneration and bonuses. The 1991 Act was designed for them to be private companies with shareholders, who were going to receive dividends as a consequence. If that is the prime duty, and the main regulator oversees that prime duty, the other issues that water companies ought to be taking into account—the environmental issues in particular, as we heard earlier—become less important.

I hope that, when we come to Report and discuss these issues more closely, the Minister will think about a government amendment that strengthens the duties of water companies, and of Ofwat as the regulator, to take into account these other issues. For me, that is at the heart of the discussions we have had on this group and the previous group. I agree with the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Remnant. You cannot try to control pay awards further down the company; those often very talented people need to be attracted into water companies if we are to improve what is a sad state of affairs.

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 18 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, which simply deletes new subsection (5)(c) on page 2. It seems to me that we cannot allow the authority—whatever it may be in the future, after the review, or even from now on—to start getting involved in the remuneration of those below board level. That really becomes too much intrusion into the way a company is run.

The noble Lord, Lord Sikka, is entirely correct that, in the end, a director of a company is a director, whether executive or non-executive, as covered by the Bill; it mentions “a director” of the company. It seems to me that, while senior role remuneration should have some guidance from the authority, that should be restricted to the chief executive and other executive board members. There is no point entering into a discussion about non-executive directors, who clearly do not participate in performance-related pay or bonuses or anything like that. I think the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, is right; it would be appropriate to delete new subsection (5)(c) and include in this clause only the chief executive and any other executive director.

[Lord Roborough (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, for moving Amendment 4. It is right that the Government should take steps to put appropriate pressure on water and sewage companies to reduce the frequency and scale of water pollution incidents, and imposing financial penalties on board-level executives is a powerful way of disincentivising unwanted behaviours in the sector. But if we are to have financial penalties targeted at water executives who do not meet the standards expected of them, we must ensure that these are appropriate. As we discussed in the last debate, it is crucial that Parliament gets the opportunity to scrutinise the rules that Ofwat will be implementing.

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[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 16 in my name. I underline at the outset that this is not about putting people on the board; if that is a misapprehension, I want to dispel it. Civil society has been at the forefront of raising issues around water pollution, including monitoring pollution incidents, and, frankly, it has done a better job than the regulators, which have been playing catch-up ever since.

There is an unbalanced and sometimes adversarial power relationship between civil society, water companies and the regulator, and this has given rise to numerous complaints about a lack of transparency—for example, companies deliberately adopting a very narrow definition of “environmental” in order to reject and bat away inquiries from civil society and others. This amendment would require the regulator and water companies to engage with civil society on a regular and formalised basis to agree actions and to record these actions publicly.

This achieves two things. It addresses the disbalance between civil society, the water companies and the regulators and will be an important means to increase transparency, including detailed public transparency as to what is going on, what the regulators and water companies are being challenged on and what actions are planned. It is very easy to underestimate the importance of this. In a previous role I had, we were handing over large sums of money to organisations and one of the stipulations was that they had to publish on their own website exactly what actions they had committed to. This made life very easy for us, because the media then held them to account against those actions. I suggest that a formal process where these things are recorded properly and publicly will be of great assistance to keep the water companies and the regulators up to the mark. Without a formal process of that sort, the relationship will remain distant and most likely adversarial. Therefore, I hope the Minister will look favourably on this amendment or produce one of her own from the government side.

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 21 and 23 in my name. In effect, they both seek to amend new subsection (6) on page 2. The main point of my amendment is that I believe it does not lead to effective governance of a board of directors if sectional interests are represented directly on the board. It is much more effective and likely to have more influence if a specialist panel is created to advise and meet the chief executive. I cannot understand why the Government’s clause refers only to the views of consumers. It seems essential—I agree in various ways with the noble Earl, Lord Russell—that environmental interests are similarly represented on a panel. It could be a separate panel or one representing both consumer and environmental interests; I think it would be better to have two panels.

The real point is that I have never seen a board work effectively where there is a sectional interest represented directly on the board, with one or two members of the board speaking only for that particular interest. It makes it very difficult to reach a consensus on a board. Most boards work by consensus, and there has to be a collegiate atmosphere on any board. Where a particular interest is represented, be it environmental or consumer, that is less likely to lead to effective management of the board of that company.

I would like to persuade the Minister to delete from new subsection (6) “board” and “committee” but leave in “panel”, to include consumers and environmentalists on those panels and, importantly, that those panels should have regular meetings with the chief executive to exercise real influence over the conclusions of the board when it next meets on that subject.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Duke of Wellington Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Bill. It demonstrates a much greater determination by the new Government to tackle the continuing and barely reducing problem of pollution of our rivers, lakes and beaches. Since we debated these matters three years ago during the passage of the Environment Bill—now the Act—the position has hardly improved. It has needed new Ministers with greater focus to force the water companies to take the matter more seriously. It has been a national disgrace that water companies have in many cases become financial structures to provide investors with an above-average return, through not only dividends but high-yielding bonds and executive management rewards.

We should all remember, as any player of Monopoly knows, that water companies used to be boring utilities providing a secure but not very exciting return. Some 35 years after privatisation, the companies are, on the whole, not owned by the original retail investors, who in many cases had been the consumers of water services in a particular area, but are now owned largely by institutional investors through private equity structures with high leverage. Such structures are not suitable for a regional monopoly utility. Water is essential for all residential and business premises.

I commend the Government for increasing accountability and transparency for the water industry. Yesterday, I heard the chief executive of Ofwat say on the “Today” programme that there needs to be a cultural change in the water companies. I believe that the Bill is likely to help that process as directors of the different companies come to realise their personal accountability. However, I must again suggest to Ministers that they should set up, within the independent review that they have already announced, a review of the current regulatory structure. The Minister has said that there will be a review of the whole industry, and I quite understand that it cannot be part of this Bill, but I hope that when she replies to this debate, she will undertake that a review will definitely include a look at the structure of regulation.

I and other noble Lords have received a suggestion that the growth duty placed on the Environment Agency and Ofwat should be disapplied, but this was added only recently by a statutory instrument. I spoke against that statutory instrument—the then Minister was here a few moments ago but unfortunately is now not in his place—but, as there is no ability by either House of Parliament to amend a statutory instrument, it was passed. I cannot imagine that this new Government would wish to be seen to disapply a growth duty on any public body.

Throughout this Bill, there are frequent references—sometimes slightly confusingly—to new powers for the regulators. Dividing regulation between Ofwat as the financial regulator and the Environment Agency as the environmental regulator has, with hindsight, allowed the industry to evolve in a way that has damaged the aquatic environment and offended the public’s perception of our green and pleasant land. The state of our rivers, lakes and beaches is a national disgrace—we must surely all admit that. At last, this Government are trying to overcome this stain on our reputation and our sense of well-being. I have a concern, however, that unless we improve the way we regulate the polluters we will not in the long term arrive where we want and need to be in terms of the ecological state of our inland and coastal waterways.

A number of us yesterday received emails suggesting that Ofwat should be given an additional duty to protect the environment. Whereas this is a laudable intent and something that all businesses and indeed individuals should aspire to, I am not sure that, in the current regulatory structure, it would be sensible to add this statutory duty to the other regulator while it is principally the duty of the Environment Agency.

I turn now to some specific ways in which I think the Bill could be improved. I am very grateful to the Minister for a meeting that a number of us had with her on Monday. It is, I think, significant that the Bill has been tabled in this House, thus enabling it to be better scrutinised—and improved—before it goes to the other place where, as we know, very few amendments will ever be properly considered, let alone voted on.

I am a bit concerned at the idea of consumer representatives on boards. In my experience, such defined interests on a board are not likely to improve the effectiveness of the board. New Section 35B(6), inserted by Clause 1, on page 2 of the Bill, does refer to a “committee or panel”—as the Opposition spokesman has already said. I believe that one of these would be much more effective and appropriate, particularly if the chief executive was required to have regular meetings with such a panel. If consumer interests are to be represented, why not also environmental interests, which I would have thought are, in this circumstance, equally important?

In new Section 94EA, inserted by Clause 2, the requirement for water and sewerage undertakers to prepare and publish a pollution incident reduction plan should, I suggest to the Minister, be extended to include a legal requirement to implement the plan. There are too many cases of plans being announced and then not being delivered.

The Bill introduces the concept of “emergency overflows” in addition to the permitted combined sewage overflows, or CSOs. I understand the department’s wish to have another category of overflows, but it surely cannot be justified that the water companies can claim that an emergency overflow is legal if it is caused by an electrical power failure, as detailed in new Section 141G(2)(a), inserted by Clause 3. Any other public service provider, such as a hospital or a school, would be required to have in place sufficient electricity generator capacity to cope with power failures. I suggest to the Minister that this is too easy an escape clause for the water companies.

In conclusion, I support this Bill but I hope that, in Committee, we can help the Minister to make this an even better Bill before it goes to the other place.

Wild Atlantic Salmon

Duke of Wellington Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2024 Grand Committee

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that one of my children owns a stretch of a small salmon river in south-west Scotland, where I have fished all my life.

In the very short time available, I want simply to suggest to the Minister that, in informing herself about this dangerous situation with the Atlantic salmon, she might care to visit, or at least find out about, an organic salmon farm in Ireland which I visited this summer. It is extraordinary. Anybody who watched the “Panorama” programme on salmon farming a few years ago will never again eat any farmed Scottish salmon. However, that organic farm in Ireland is truly admirable. It does not have a lice problem. The salmon are not so packed in the cages as in Scotland, where they are like battery chickens. There is virtually no use of antibiotics or other chemicals. The seabed under the cages is regularly inspected and never resembles the state of the seabed under the salmon farms on the west coast of Scotland.

So there is an alternative to the sort of salmon farming which takes place on the west coast. I do not know whether the Minister can apply any influence over the Scottish Government, but the industry should be more regulated. At the very least, the use of antibiotics in it should be strictly controlled.