Police Accountability

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that policing is undertaken by consent. To have that consent, policing needs both to reflect and to understand the community. I have no problem with police officers stopping and searching individuals—that is part of the prevention of criminal activity—but they need to do so in a way that is conducive to consent and to community relations, while having full accountability and explaining why and how those activities have taken place. The noble Lord’s point about the disregard between members of the black community and the police is a source of deep sadness. Many of the people who were involved in, and have been killed by, some of this concerning behaviour were innocent people from the black community. Therefore, trust is a long-term measure. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is trying to build a stronger mechanism of community policing, but I will certainly take on board the points the noble Lord mentioned, and we will reflect on how we can build that confidence in the community to ensure effective, proper policing.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. I welcome the Minister’s typically sensible and pragmatic approach to this issue. Does he agree that we have to strike a balance in the bulwark of our system, which is judicial independence, notwithstanding the sui generis nature of the Kaba case, but that part of the review should also include the not quite unprecedented but unusual decision by the judge to release the name of Sergeant Blake, which had massive ramifications? That should be part of the review, because there has to be a robust evidential basis for a decision to plunge that officer potentially into a very difficult situation by removing anonymity.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My response to the noble Lord will not be critical of the judge. I simply say that, having seen the implications of that decision, my right honourable friend and I have taken the view that anonymity is the best way to protect the safety of anybody charged with these offences who is a police officer. I hope that Members of this House who have a judicial background will not take that as a criticism. It is a way in which we can review what has happened in this case, and the consequences of what happened after naming the individual, and try to put in a framework that in due course will potentially have legal backing from this House and the House of Commons.

Debate on the Address

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Wednesday 18th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point, and it is important that the northern powerhouse is not just about the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Tatton. That appears to be the northern powerhouse, but in my view it must be backed up and supported by civil servants, and I support my hon. Friend’s wish to maintain a strong presence in Sheffield and the north. North-east Wales looks to Liverpool and Manchester as much as it does to Cardiff for economic growth and activity, and we need cross-regional support on infra- structure projects, and people on hand to work with that.

Those are my initial observations on important issues, but I wish to focus on the points about prisons that were raised by the right hon. and learned Member for Harborough. He was gracious enough to acknowledge that for two years and one month I was prisons Minister when he was the shadow Minister, so I hope that I speak with some experience of dealing with what are difficult challenges in the prison system.

In the Gracious Speech the Justice Secretary indicated that there will be a prisons Bill, and I look forward to that—perhaps I may even make a bid for pre-legislative scrutiny by the Justice Committee, on which I sit. The Bill as trailed so far suggests that there will be a lot of discussion about the autonomy of prison governors to consider a range of issues, and six prisons have been identified by the Government to pilot and trail those reforms. We have prisons with “potential for reform”—whatever that might mean—and the potential for new-build prisons. That comes on a day when the Coates review has announced two statistics that put into context the points made by the right hon. and learned Member for Harborough. For example, today’s review shows that 42% of adult prisoners were excluded from school, and 24% of adult prisoners currently in the prison estate spent some or all of their time as young people in care before they reached the prison system.

Long-term, deep-seated issues have been highlighted by the Coates review and need to be examined by the Prison Service as part of the prisons Bill, but that raises some questions. I will not rule out support for the Bill—I do not yet know what my hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench will think about it—but we must test what it will mean in practice, and now is as good a time as any to do that. What real autonomies will prison governors have at a local level? Will they have autonomy over pay and conditions? If so, that would be a matter of great concern. Will they have autonomy over procurement, education and employment practices? What autonomies will they have, and how will they exercise them in the Prison Service when the Ministry of Justice in central London is managing the prison population and sector as a whole—the hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned many of the pressures on prison population movements.

Who will judge prison governors and monitor their activity? What benchmarks will we set on that prison service, and how will we judge and monitor them? What will be the relationship with the chief inspector of prisons? What outcomes are expected from the six potential reform prisons? How will we judge whether prison governors have made a difference, particularly given that many prisoners in many prisons—I will speak about Wandsworth prison in a moment—have mental health problems or long-standing drug or alcohol problems. Many prisoners had long-standing unemployment problems before being imprisoned, and perhaps do not spend sufficient time in prison to benefit from schemes such as the Timpson scheme in Liverpool, which I had the pleasure of opening in 2006 or 2007 with the brother of the Minister for Children and Families, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Edward Timpson). It is a great scheme—I cannot walk past a Timpson establishment without wondering whether the person working there has been trained and supported by the family and firm. [Interruption.] I do go in sometimes as well.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman speaks with great expertise and eloquence on these issues, about which he knows a great deal. Notwithstanding the correct decision of the previous Labour Government to move to a social investment bond at HMPs Doncaster and Peterborough, in 13 years his Government failed to tackle recidivism among prisoners serving short sentences. Why was that?

[Mr Hanson]

I do not wish to get into too much of a party-political debate with the hon. Gentleman, but recidivism and reoffending did fall. It did not fall to the extent I would have wanted, but it did fall. The key point is to find employment prospects for those who are in prison, and deal with their drug and alcohol problems. We spent considerable extra resources on drug treatment projects, unemployment, schemes such as the Timpson training academy at Liverpool and other prisons, and on trying to make connections with outside employers. However, there is still a hard cohort of people, and one problem that the current Prison Service will face concerns those who are in prison for more violent offences and have longer sentences. We must consider how to deal with that.

What are the measures on which prison governors will be judged? For example, Wandsworth prison is a category B prison that currently holds 1,877 prisoners. Some 45% of sentenced prisoners currently in Wandsworth are imprisoned for less than one year, and 15% are in for less than three months, 6% for under a month, and 11.9% for less than six months. They will not be in prison for very long or so that a prison governor can make an impact on the recidivism of that prisoner. When the Bill is introduced, the Government need to give real thought to what happens in prisons such as Wandsworth, where 45% of the 54% of sentenced prisoners spend less than a year in prison, and the majority are there for under six months.

How do we judge a prison governor when an individual in that prison has mental health problems, or needs housing or employment outside prison? I worry that the Government are considering setting up a reform project for six prisons, at a time when some of the pressures on prisons are of their own making. For example, when I was prisons Minister, there were 7,000 more prison officers in prisons than there are today. Over six years this Government have reduced the number of officers, and assaults on prison staff have risen by 41%. Incidents of suicide and self-harm in prison have increased, and there are pressures on education and employment services.

One might expect a Labour MP to say those things, but as the right hon. and learned Member for Harborough mentioned, the Justice Committee—on which I sit, and which is ably chaired by the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill)—last week produced a report on prison safety. I would like the Government to consider and respond to these points. The report’s conclusions state that

“overall levels of safety in prisons are not stabilising as the Ministry of Justice and National Offender Management Service had hoped, let alone improving. This is a matter of great concern, and improvement is urgently needed.”

It goes on to state—this is key to today’s Gracious Speech —that

“it is imperative that further attention is paid to bringing prisons back under firmer control, reversing the recent trends of escalating violence, self-harm and self-inflicted deaths, without which we firmly believe the implementation of these wider reforms will be severely undermined.”

There is a real challenge for the Government to consider not just a reform prison programme for the future, but also what needs to be done now. I commend the cross-party report, and I look forward to the Government’s response. It also states that prison staff are not being retained, that recruitment is not matching the number of people who are leaving, and that there are fewer prison officers than are needed for an effective Prison Service. It is not sufficient for the Government just to put their wishes in the Bill and hope to reform prisons. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), knows that, and he needs to work with the Justice Secretary to deliver on those issues.

I intervened on the right hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) from the Scottish National party on reform of the House of Lords, which we need to look at. The former Deputy Prime Minister and former leader of the Liberal Democrats, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), raises his hands in frustration, but many of us wish to change the House of Lords. I say this to the right hon. Gentleman, but it also goes to the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron): the spectacle two weeks ago of a hereditary peer place being filled by three votes from the Liberal Democrat Benches filled me with horror.

[Mr Hanson]

Let us put that to one side—we can revisit that. [Interruption.] No, I have always voted to abolish the House of Lords. I am simply suggesting that there could be common currency on looking at elements of reform. If the Government are to make changes to the Lords in this Parliament, let us get cross-party consensus on, for example, abolishing hereditary peers. If we do not abolish them, we could stop their elections. My noble Friend Lord Grocott has said that, when a vacancy occurs, we should no longer have elections. This House of Commons is being reduced to 600 Members, yet membership of that House is being increased, and hereditary peers are replaced by an electorate of three—the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale thinks as I do that that is ridiculous—so let us try to make changes.

[Mr Jackson]

I find myself uncharacteristically agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman—I am speeding on the road to Damascus. My worst vote in the previous Parliament was to oppose House of Lords reform, but let us remember for the record that a ludicrous proposal was put to the House without consensus—the proposal was for one 15-year non-renewable term. That obviously was not acceptable, but there is a basis on both sides of the House for further discussion on House of Lords reform.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s support and I agree that it is uncharacteristic for us to agree. Having said that, if the Government are introducing a Bill to change aspects of the House of Lords, let us look at changing aspects of it that are blatantly ridiculous. Hereditary peers are one such aspect. If the Government do not include that in any Bill, I give notice now, for what it is worth, that I will table an amendment to stop that practice and make changes. I am sure that that will put the Government and the business managers in a state of trepidation, but it is worth giving that notice now.

My final point is on Wales. There was no specific mention in the Gracious Speech of the Wales Bill, which was in draft form in the previous Session. It fell apart for a range of reasons that we do not need to go into, but that has caused a vacuum that is yet to be filled.

In the Gracious Speech, the Government say that they will

“establish a strong and lasting devolution settlement in Wales.”

I do not know whether that means that a Wales Bill will be forthcoming—I hope there will be so we can examine it—but I would be grateful if, in the next five or six days of debate, the Government and the Secretary of State for Wales confirmed that a Wales Bill will be considered in this Session.

Police Grant Report

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Wednesday 14th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister to his position. He will know that it is an excellent job to have, and it is one that I certainly enjoyed in government. He has great support in the Home Office from a fine team of officials and staff in doing that job.

Having got the niceties out of the way, I come to the crunch. I am disappointed and unhappy about the approach that the Minister has taken to the in-year funding cuts for allocations to police authorities in England and Wales for 2010-11. There are a number of new Members in their places, and I do not think that they will realise that this debate was held, done and dusted, in the House in February. We had a debate then on the 2010-11 police grant. I stood at the Government Dispatch Box when we debated the third year of a settlement for the police in England and Wales. We had already announced the three-year settlement two years before, and the House was to confirm the third year on 3 February.

At that time, I challenged the Liberal Democrat spokesman, who sat where my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) is sitting today, and the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), who was sitting where I am now. I asked whether, if they were in government in any way, shape or form—much to my surprise, the Liberals have found themselves in that position—they would reduce or change this year’s grant. The answer was that they would not. In fact, the Liberal Democrats called for more spending on the police—a point that I shall return to later. Our proposals for the third year of the agreed settlement were supported by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats in opposition but are now opposed and torn up by them in government.

One of the most distressing aspects of the debate is the fact that the third-year settlement has been agreed, is known and has been put to police authorities across England and Wales. Police authorities went into their precept-setting meetings in February, March and April based on that grant and on what they expected their income from Government to be for 2010-11.

[Mr Stewart Jackson]

The right hon. Gentleman is moving to the crux of the issue, despite his engaging and emollient beginning. We would take his protestations slightly more seriously if his own Government had brought forward a comprehensive spending review last autumn, and specifically if the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) had ruled out cuts in police numbers during the election campaign. Neither happened, so we have to take the right hon. Gentleman’s protestations with a pinch of salt.

[Mr Hanson]

I look forward to the hon. Gentleman voting today to reduce Cambridgeshire’s policing grant by £1.2 million. That is what he will be doing. He needs to go back to Cambridgeshire and explain to the residents of Peterborough why he is voting to reduce the budget by £1.2 million this year. I and my 257 colleagues on the Labour Benches stood on a manifesto commitment to ensure that policing resources were maintained after the general election. We won our seats on that basis, and we are being consistent in putting forward our arguments today. The hon. Gentleman is voting to remove money from his police force.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hanson]

I am trying to be helpful to the hon. Gentleman. I agree with him that there are savings to be made on, for example, uniforms, vehicles and air support. We were trying to do that, and I will fully support the Minister’s attempts to get those contracts. However, that does not detract from the fact that the core grant for this year, which we agreed in February—without a vote, with Conservative and Liberal Democrat support—is being cut today. And we face further cuts down the line because of cuts in the Home Office grant.

[Mr Stewart Jackson]

The right hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. He was candid earlier when he said that the Labour Government were burned over the mergers. They were burned because there was no consultation and a top-down approach was forced on individual forces. Ten, eight or six years ago, the previous Government could have given police forces a fiscal incentive to share back-office functions, procurement, equipment and so on, but they failed to do that. That is a fair point to make to inform today’s debate on budget reductions.

[Mr Hanson]

Let us revert to the subject before us. I think that there is scope for mergers of police forces. As a Minister, I encouraged the provision of a grant of £500,000 to help move that process on. I agree with the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) that we were burned by forced mergers. I wish the Minister a fair wind if he can continue to encourage forces that, with local support, want to merge. Mergers should not be forced from the centre, but agreed locally. Let us not disagree about that.

Labour supported mergers and procurement measures when in government, and I support the Minister for Police on them in opposition. The key is that we still require resources to undertake policing. This year, resources are being cut in-year, despite an agreed settlement; the 25% that might be cut in future years will also be damaging. That will have a serious impact on crime generally. I do not very often agree with the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), as I am sure the Minister does not, but he knew what he was talking about on DNA, CCTV, appropriate prison sentences, reducing reoffending and investment in police. He is right on those issues, and the Conservative party will be proved wrong.

All MPs value the increases in police officers in their constituencies in the past 13 years. Today’s cut could result in the loss of about 4,100 officers from our streets this year alone, according, I should tell the Minister, to House of Commons Library figures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jackson]

I know that we could wander the byways and highways of penal policy for ever, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I graciously accept your admonition on that particular point and I shall return to the police grant, before you rule me out of order.

We have to be realistic about what we are being asked to accept today.

[Mr Hanson]

May I refer the hon. Gentleman to the last words of his speech in the grant settlement debate on 3 February? They were:

“I hope that we get a better settlement when we have a Conservative Government in the next few weeks.”—[Official Report, 3 February 2010; Vol. 505, c. 360.]

How does he square that with the cut that he is going to vote through today?