Hernia Mesh in Men

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Thursday 5th September 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered hernia mesh in men.

I have brought this issue to the House because, to be truthful, I was not aware of this problem among men. I am well aware of the hernia mesh issue for women, and have represented their viewpoint for a number of years in this House and back home, where the Northern Ireland health service has responsibility. I asked for this debate after a number of gentlemen came to see me some months ago—I will give a little background on that in a few minutes.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for selecting this topic for debate. Back in July I accepted its offer of this first Thursday back, even though I know it is the graveyard shift, unless there is a three-line Whip in the main Chamber. Given today’s one-line Whip, many Members have returned home after everything that has happened in the last two days. None the less, I am very pleased to bring this matter to Westminster Hall. I am also pleased to see the Minister in her place. This will be a hat-trick of debates for her—one yesterday and two today. I look forward to her response.

I raised this issue after a meeting I had with some men in Northern Ireland. My party colleague and health spokesperson in the Northern Ireland Assembly, Paula Bradley, who represents North Belfast, initially made me aware of the issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) also brought it to my attention, as he had met constituents to discuss the matter. It is only over the past nine months that I have been aware of it. The men I met that day were aged between 30 and about 55. I understand that in Northern Ireland some 400 men have had problems, and the number across Great Britain will be even higher. They outlined their experiences and the difficulties that they attributed to hernia mesh. I thought that their problems should be considered in this place, as those problems have been replicated throughout the United Kingdom.

The matter has been brought to the attention of the Department of Health and Social Care. The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day), the Scots nats spokesperson, is aware of the issue and will offer his experience. I will not steal his speech, but I understand he will tell us a wee bit about what he has experienced personally and about the health service in Scotland. I am also pleased to see the shadow spokesperson, the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), in her place.

I urge that serious consideration be given to an investigation, on the same scale as the Australian investigation, and that action be taken after the findings are collated. Australia took action, and I hope the Minister will assure me that the Government will do the same. I promised my constituents and those 400 men across Northern Ireland who have had problems with hernia mesh that I would raise awareness in this House because, unfortunately, we do not have a functioning Northern Ireland Assembly so cannot raise the issue there.

In November 2018, the Health Issues Centre undertook social research to investigate adverse health experiences among Australian men and women who had undergone a medical device implant. The research was product non-specific, to identify any devices that demonstrated a pattern of failure. Many hernia operations are successful. In our job as elective representatives, people do not tell us how good things are; they tell us their complaints. Therefore, we do not always hear about the successful hernia mesh implants, but we certainly hear about the problems.

The issue was highlighted on the “Victoria Derbyshire” programme on 26 December 2018. A spokesperson from the Royal College of Surgeons said that hernia mesh complications “affect more than 100,000” people. They went on to say:

“It is clearly tragic if even a single patient suffers horrible complications from any type of surgery, not just hernia operations. Unfortunately the nature of surgery in general, not just mesh surgery, carries with it an inherent risk of complications which surgeons will always seek to assess, and will discuss with patients according to their individual clinical circumstances before surgery takes place.

It is important to make a distinction between groin hernia, the most commonly carried out repair and other forms of abdominal wall repair where a hernia has arisen, for example, in an incision or scar after a previous operation. These are more difficult and the complications rates are much higher.

A recent 2018 study found that both mesh and non-mesh hernia repairs were effective for patients and are not associated with different rates of chronic pain. The Victoria Derbyshire programme is right to point out how a minority of hernia mesh operations are associated with complications. However, it is also important to stress that such complications range dramatically from minor and correctable irritations to the more serious complications highlighted in its programme. Complications can also occur with non-mesh hernia repairs, and by not operating on a hernia at all. It is extremely important that patients are given the full picture by surgeons, regulators, and the media.”

A large number of studies have looked at the available treatments, but unfortunately we do not have all the appropriate information. The spokesperson continued:

“There have already been a number of scientific studies looking at the use of different types of mesh in hernia and we should continue to review the evidence and patients’ experiences to make sure the right advice is given and the right action is taken. Along with the regulatory authorities, we will continue to listen to patients’ experiences. Patients suffering complications or pain need help, not silence.”

That is very important and we must underline that point. They continued:

“There must also be an ongoing review of the data to make sure that previous studies have not missed any serious, widespread issue. It remains vital that surgeons continue to make patients aware of all the possible side effects associated with performing a hernia repair.”

Those gentlemen who came to see me earlier this year to ld me that they were not aware of the complications. I will give an example a little later. I do not want to criticise surgeons because they are under incredible pressure, but people have told me that they were not aware of the ins and outs and relevant information, so I believe there is a case to answer.

The Health Issues Centre inquiry specifically focused on people who had suffered a hernia, to better understand the nature and the impact of adverse outcomes. Over a period of four weeks, 183 respondents reported hernia mesh-related injury across a range of brands and of categories of hernia. Several serious problems with hernia mesh implants arose, too. It is hard sometimes to explain the physical, emotional and mental effect. The people I met were very clear that in the vast numbers of cases that they knew of, there were several serious problems. The vast majority of respondents—87% of them—did not feel that they were given enough information before their treatment to give informed consent. Indeed, they were never told about the risks and the impacts. They were not aware of any problems.

A senior member of the Conservative party—I will not mention his name—told me yesterday, “I have had a hernia mesh implant, but mine was successful.” Many are successful, but we should highlight those that are not. Some 91% of respondents suffer ongoing post-operative chronic pain as well as other health impacts. For example, some of the men who spoke to me have had serious bouts of depression and allergic reactions. Only 8.7% of respondents said that they had had successful treatment to address the problematic outcome of the operation.

Past cases of mine have involved women who have had mesh operations, which are intimate operations. I have had cases of ladies who have been unable to work or keep relationships going. They have been unable to cope with life, so the impacts of hernia mesh when it goes wrong are very real.

Men represented some 70% of the respondents to the survey. Those figures are from Australia, of course, but I just want to illustrate the matter. I will move on to the United Kingdom, but those figures are relevant.

Years ago in Northern Ireland a man developed a limp four years after surgery. People told him, “We have experienced pain as a result of similar surgery.” Damien Murtagh, who lives in Banbridge and has given me permission to tell his story, has been left with a limp as a result of his operation six years ago. He said:

“For years no one could tell me what is causing this pain. I can no longer ride my bike, go fishing, I work part-time”,

because of the chronic pain and the effect it has had on his lifestyle. He continued:

“The pain in the lower stomach and groin area makes me feel physically sick. I have no private life.”

It has been difficult for him to maintain relationships with other people. The issues caused off the back of the surgery are genuine and life changing.

I find it odd that this surgery can create such problems. I am not a medical professional. I can make no judgment about the operations, but I can ask whether they should continue without the assurance that every possible investigation has been carried out into the prolonged side effects. The patients should know, at every stage, the potential implications if the operation does not go as planned.

Figures specific to the United Kingdom also outline the problem. In a survey of 653 people, 18.8% said that they had developed antibiotic-resistant infections as a result of mesh complications. A person’s general health can go down dramatically. Some 40% of respondents described their pain levels at worst to be 10 out of 10. Usually, 10 out of 10 means someone is doing well, but in this case it means they are not and that they are in severe pain. In addition, 85.6% of respondents said that they could not sleep because of the pain. The men told me that their sleep patterns had been destroyed. They are in constant, nagging pain that never leaves them. When it gets to that stage and someone’s personal life is so affected, we have to look very seriously at the issue.

The problems of lack of information are not specific to Australia. Some 91.7% of respondents were not even told that they would be getting a mesh implant. Some did not even know what was happening. They went for the operation and knew there would be a repair job; they accepted that, but they were not aware of the implications. Some 96.2% said they were not shown the mesh implant that they were about to be given, while 91.7% were not told that the mesh implant was made of plastic, and 98% said they were not told the size of the mesh implant. When it comes to serious operations—in most cases it is probably a minor operation, but it has the potential to change lives—we need to make sure that patients are aware of such things.

Patients feel that they are not being told the risks of the surgery and the potential issues. We understand that that is partly because a decision is made when the patient is open and the need dictates the method; sometimes a decision has to be taken when the operation is at an advanced stage and it might not be possible to let the person know. I understand the pressures that surgeons and their staff are under, but I feel that an essential part of the care is an understanding of what to expect, and that can make a difference to the outcome. It would certainly have made a difference to the 400 men in Northern Ireland who have experienced problems. It would certainly have changed their lives if they had known about the implications for them. None the less, we find ourselves in a very difficult position, and they find themselves physically, mentally and emotionally changed. For some of them, their relationships have broken down as well.

Informed consent is fundamental to any surgery. I had three minor operations in 2017 and, to be honest, I would have signed any paper just to get the operations over because the pain was so extreme. At the end of the day, you sign the paper and you understand. In my case, it was a straightforward operation on the three occasions.

I mentioned Damien from Banbridge earlier. Outlining his case could help people make the all-important decision to go ahead with surgery, knowing that there could possibly be some serious downsides, although not in every case. That would be a more ideal situation for the patients, rather than being struck with post-operation issues without having been aware of the risks. At least they would know that they had taken the risk, not the surgeon, who they might feel had hidden the risk from them. It is a natural reaction. It is not pointing the finger or judgmental. I stress again that in no way can I ever accuse surgical teams of deliberately withholding information from their patients.

In an ideal world, post-operative problems would not exist and the NHS and private hospitals, which some patients are transferred to, would be able to shape the surgery in such a way that the pain that many patients cite would not occur. Problems created by surgery have knock-on effects. Physical problems quickly become mental problems. If Members had heard the stories of the gentlemen I met, they would understand where the mental problems come from. The pain is absolutely unbearable. Many experience depression as a result of surgery. They all cite anxiety, panic attacks and nightmares, and—this is serious—some people hear things that are not there. It clearly affects them mentally.

I congratulate and thank the men for making their information and backgrounds known. I also thank my colleagues from my own party who took the time to let me know about their individual cases. When we hear their stories, we clearly see how their lives have been changed.

In the United Kingdom study, 27.6% of respondents had been formally diagnosed with a mental health condition such as PTSD, which can affect people in many different ways, and 4.7% said that they had self-harmed because of mesh complications. That is probably off the back of the depression and the pain that becomes almost unbearable. I never realised just how much pain can affect people. I met a lady who had a problem following an operation—it was nothing to do with hernia mesh. The pain was so bad that she asked for her right knee to be taken off to remove the pain. Doing that removed the pain, because that is where the pain was, but it was a dramatic step to take, so when people start to self-harm, as some have said they have, because of the mesh complications, we must take serious cognizance of what has happened.

Some 24.3% of respondents had psychotherapy or counselling as a result of mesh complications. Again, the counselling was to try to stop them self-harming, and to help them to deal with a physical, surgical problem that would be long-term. Almost half of respondents—43.6%—revealed that they had suicidal thoughts, which underlines their clear anxiety and the importance of doing something; and 4.7% had tried to take their own lives. Unfortunately, nearly every day of the week we elected representatives deal, in our offices, with people suffering depression and anxiety, whatever the reasons may be. We understand what drives people to the brink of despair. It can be money issues, marital problems, family issues or a physical problem, as in the case we are considering. The figures reveal the dark reality of post-operation life for many of the respondents, and reinforce the urgency of the issue, which needs to be addressed as soon as possible. That is why I have brought the matter to the House for consideration, and it is why the Backbench Business Committee was pleased to provide an opportunity to highlight it. Many complications surround the issue of hernia mesh surgery, and there is a need to give urgent attention to solving them. The figures more than reinforce that point.

I mentioned the effect on families. The gentlemen who came to see me and my colleague, Paula Bradley MLA, on the occasion I spoke of, were able to tell me something about that. More often than not, when someone is sick or ill or having problems they are not the only one travelling that road; their wife or partner and family travel it with them, so there are also family issues. Post-operation care is prevalent among the issues, and 33.1% of respondents in the UK survey said that their partner was now their carer. When we get married we know it is for better or for worse—and sometimes a partner becomes a carer. Clearly that is a great responsibility for them. Three per cent. of respondents said that they had to put their parents into a retirement home as a result of mesh complications and problems with the surgery. People would obviously have loyalty and feel a duty to try to look after them, so that tells me, and should tell everyone present in the Chamber, that clearly the problem affects all the family. If one suffers, all suffer.

I have been told that there are clear problems associated with mesh implants that need to be addressed. We are dealing with issues, following the surgery, that people believe are related to it. They include adverse mental health issues and the fact that 78.4% of people experience depression—more than three quarters of the people in question. For the people I met, depression was clearly now a part of life. Some had stopped work altogether. Family relationships had broken down; they were no longer able to hold them together. Some 40.7% of respondents said that their child acted as a temporary carer. I know the good things that many children do for parents and perhaps siblings, but whenever a child, growing up, who should be enjoying childhood and focusing on their education, must be a temporary carer, there are clearly issues to address. Some men cannot have children after surgery, as some of the men I met told me. That is another issue that means we need to hasten an investigation.

There is also a need to address the issue of post-operative pain that lasts many years. I understand that what I have said is perhaps topical and anecdotal. The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk will tell the House about some of the cases, but it is clear to me from meeting the men I have mentioned, and from the evidence that I have seen, that some hernia mesh operations in men have led to serious physical problems. That is why I have brought the matter forward today for consideration. It is the reason for this debate in Westminster Hall today.

We need a governmental investigation, and there must be a directive to do that, and funding to enable it to happen. That is why I look to the Minister. I hope that we will get a helpful response. I hope that in the future all the post-operation issues with hernia mesh surgery can be resolved. I hope that the NHS will receive appropriate funding to tackle mental health issues caused by the surgery. I am very pleased that in the Chancellor’s statement yesterday he reaffirmed the commitment to spending on health—I think it was £34 billion. Is the Minister in a position to suggest that some of that money could be focused on enabling the investigation to happen, and getting the data to try to address the issue? The mental health issues can never be ignored, any more than the physical ones. Perhaps the NHS will be able to improve the surgery process so that patients will not have to cope with being left in serious pain for years and perhaps for ever afterwards.

Now that the issue has been raised it is important that it gets the attention that it deserves and that the problems are tackled. I again ask the Minister—and she knows I do so respectfully and sincerely—whether we can start the process of answering the questions and providing empirical data on the side effects of hernia mesh in the United Kingdom. I know that her responsibility is to the mainland, but the inquiry will have to start somewhere, and I hope that it starts here.

[David Hanson (in the Chair)]

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has summarised the case very succinctly. We move seamlessly to Front-Bench responses. I call Mr Martyn Day.

Cystic Fibrosis Drugs: Orkambi

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Monday 10th June 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for those words. This is not an easy subject for the Minister to respond to, but it is one that has captured the interest of us all on behalf of our constituents, and we need the Government to grasp that and move it forward to the next place. We look for that.

If the Republic of Ireland is able to come to some arrangement with Vertex, if the Scottish Parliament is able to do similar and if, according to the background information, it is possible to go to Argentina and buy a year’s course of drugs for one patient at £23,000, compared with £104,000 for a year’s supply here, that tells me that something can be done if we had the willpower to do it, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) has said. We can look around at our UK neighbours and look toward Scotland, whose Government have reached an agreement with Vertex.

The permanent secretary went on to say:

“In the absence of this positive NICE determination, the Health and Social Care Board…may take into account guidance produced by other appropriate HTA”—

health technology assessment—

“bodies based in other UK countries such as the Scottish Medicines Consortium…when making decisions about access to new drugs.”

I say to the Minister that I have made a comment about the Republic of Ireland, but I also make a comment about Scotland, because I think that the process enables us to use what Scotland has done as an example for us elsewhere.

The permanent secretary continued:

“The Department is aware that Vertex have re-applied to the SMC for consideration of approval for Orkambi, and that in the meantime there is currently limited access to the drug in Scotland via their PACS”—

peer approved clinical system—

“Tier 2 scheme, which is broadly analogous to our Individual Funding Request Process.

If Orkambi is approved by the SMC, details of the funding models in place, which are currently bound by commercial confidentiality, will be shared with the other UK countries. This will allow for us to have full access to the evidence and costs associated with this therapy and will inform any further decisions on access.”

The hon. Member for Colne Valley (Thelma Walker) referred to the destruction of some medications. Whatever the reason for that was—whether they had run out of time or whatever—I think it is disgraceful that people have destroyed some medicines rather than letting them be used by the general public, by those who need them. If that is not unacceptable in this day and age, I do not know what is. It is absolutely disgraceful; it really annoys me.

It is simply terrible that we are in a position where our hand are tied. I say again to the Government: look to your Scottish counterparts. I firmly believe that we can and must do more from this place and that that must start with acknowledging that the NICE guidelines do not currently take into account the differences, when it comes to pricing, between treatments for rare diseases and a new antibiotic strain. We need a new form of assessment for rare diseases and I would like to see that taking place as soon as possible to ensure that the mummy of my two-year-old constituent, who is asking me for this drug in order to give her child as normal a life as possible, can look forward to securing the best for her child. That is what every Member has said here today on behalf of their constituents.

Again according to the background information that I have, in May 2019 the Government said in response to a parliamentary question that discussions between Vertex, NHS England and NICE were ongoing. You know something? They have been ongoing for more than a year. Let’s get them sorted. Time is passing fast. I am joining colleagues in asking the Department to make the administrative changes necessary to end the Orkambi stalemate with NICE and to put in place a body designed specifically to address rare disease patients and their needs. We acknowledge that NICE does a tremendous job in ensuring that safe, cost-effective medicines are available on prescription, but we need a different set-up for those whose illnesses are very different and for the sake of my constituents and those represented by other MPs who have spoken today. I am asking that those decisions be taken and the changes made to enable Richard Pengelly, the permanent secretary at the Department of Health in Northern Ireland, to do what he knows he needs to do and allow the prescription of Orkambi to those whose lives would be radically altered and enhanced by it. It would give them life-changing opportunities. As others have said, give those children a chance.

[David Hanson (in the Chair)]

The previous Chair set a time limit on speeches of six minutes, which has been successful, in that all right hon. and hon. Members have been able to take part in the debate, but it leaves us with a maximum of one hour and 10 minutes for the Front-Bench speakers to respond. Front-Bench speakers, who have more than the normal 10 minutes, can be more flexible and take interventions should they so wish.

The other point I wish to make is that because the winding-up speeches have started early, some Members who have spoken in the debate are not present for these speeches and they should be. If you are watching on television, please return to the Chamber now. This is an important debate; you have contributed to it and you should be present for the Front-Bench responses.

Persecution of Christians: Role of UK Embassies

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 4th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I thank all right hon. and hon. Members, both new Members and those who have been here for a while, for their significant and helpful contributions on an issue that is very important to all of us—it is why we are here. It is good that there has been comprehensive political representation, from all parties, in Westminster Hall today. That has ensured that we have highlighted the relevant issues.

I think the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) summed up, in her response to the debate, the feeling of us all in this Chamber. I found out that the shadow Minister for the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden), is a fellow Baptist, so there is more than just me in the House as a Baptist. It is always pleasing to see someone from a similar denomination in the House, and we wish him well in his new position.

The Minister, in his reply, summed up the things that we all want to see in place, and I thank him for that. He referred to his personal commitment to the issue, and I know that he is committed.

I will leave the last word to Matthew in chapter 5, verse 10:

“Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

[David Hanson (in the Chair)]

Order. We must now move on to the next debate. I call Alison Thewliss to move the motion. Would Members who are leaving please leave quietly, including officials?

Airguns (Under-18s)

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 14th September 2016 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the use of airguns by under-18s.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, and to have the opportunity to raise this issue so that the Minister can deal with it. The genesis of this debate commences with the tragic death of George Atkinson at the age of 13 as a result of an airgun accident. It is the wish of George’s parents, John and Jayne Atkinson, my constituents, to support action to help prevent such a tragedy from happening again. Although the events of George’s death happened 17 years ago, I do not need to remind the House that the pain of that loss remains strong for the family. The wish to help to prevent further such tragedies remains strong. Sadly, the circumstances of George’s death could be repeated today unless further action is taken, which I hope the Minister will consider.

I will explain what happened to George on that day in July 1999. George died when a pellet from an airgun hit his head following the gun going off accidentally in the home of his cousin, aged 10, who was with him at the time. The boys were in the garden of the property with at least five other children when the incident occurred. George and his cousin had got access to the gun from the property. In handling the weapon, the trigger was inadvertently pressed, resulting in an injury to George that led to his death. It was an accident and a terrible loss of life. I had met George at his school previously. He was a lovely bright boy with a promising future. His parents, Jayne and John, were obviously distraught at his death, but they have been resolute in their determination to get measures in place to help to prevent such tragedies from happening again.

The family recognise that George’s death was an accident. Both then and now, they have been steadfast in the demands that they want to be considered. At the time of the accident, Mr Atkinson, George’s father, was quoted in a newspaper:

“We don't blame anyone and we are not calling for changes to the law to ban air weapons—all I would say is that air weapons should be kept in a locked cabinet of suitable quality.”

Sadly, George’s death is not the only case where a child has been killed. There have been 17 deaths in the last 27 years, including one earlier this year. There have been 21 incidents of injury to persons between March 2015 and March 2016. I met Jayne again recently at my surgery. Her concerns remain and it is my duty, as her Member of Parliament, to bring them before the House today.

The family have asked me to raise two specific issues, which I hope the Minister will look at. First, they have asked for air weapons and ammunition to be securely locked away in properties, on the same principles as section 1 firearms. That is a simple issue that I will return to in a moment. Secondly, they want the UK Government in England and Wales to review the policy on the licensing of airguns to be adopted in Scotland at the end of this year. The family simply want me to ask a question: if it is positive and good enough for Scotland, what is the position in relation to England and Wales? I will take each issue in turn.

First, on secure control, as the Minister knows, airguns of low power are not subject to firearms legislation and can be held without firearms or shotgun certificates. There is a comprehensive list of legislative requirements that cover airguns, which I support and do not want changed, but for the purposes of this debate it is worth reminding ourselves of those regulations. Low-powered airguns—the most common type of airgun, usually used for target shooting or vermin control—are not subject to licensing under the Firearms Act 1968 and can therefore be held without a firearms or shotgun certificate. High-powered airguns with self-contained gas cartridge systems require the requisite licence or authority issued under the 1968 Act. There are a range of other measures in place that I support, which are strong and are recognised as necessary.

It is an offence for a person under 18 to purchase or hire an air weapon or ammunition for an air weapon; an offence to sell, let on hire or make a gift of an air weapon to people under the age of 18; and an offence for anyone under the age of 18 to have with them an air weapon or ammunition for an air weapon, unless they are supervised by a person aged 21 or over, are part of an approved shooting club or are shooting at a shooting gallery and the only firearms being used are air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding .23 inch calibre, or unless the person is 14 years old or above and is on private premises with the consent of the occupier.

It is an offence to part with possession of an air weapon, or ammunition for an air weapon, to a person under the age of 18; an offence for a person shooting on private land, regardless of age, to use an air weapon for the firing of a pellet beyond the boundaries of the premises; an offence for a supervising adult to allow a person under the age of 18 to fire a pellet beyond the boundaries of premises; an offence for any person to have an air weapon in a public place without a reasonable excuse; an offence to trespass with an air weapon, whether in a building or on land; an offence to have an air weapon if prohibited from possessing a firearm; an offence to fire an air weapon without lawful authority within 50 feet—15 metres—of the centre of a public road; an offence to recklessly kill wild animals, birds or live quarry with an air weapon; an offence to cause a pet or animal to suffer unnecessarily; and an offence to use an air weapon with intent to damage or destroy property. Those are strict conditions. No one would deny that they are right and proper. I am not attempting to change those conditions or to water them down. My focus is elsewhere.

Although my focus is on injury to under-18s and their potential access to air weapons, I have also had a briefing from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, which has indicated that, despite the strict conditions, there has been an increase of 49% in complaints about airgun attacks on animals over the past two years compared with 2010 to 2012. The RSPCA has asked for licensing to be looked at and for the age of unsupervised use of airguns to be raised from 14 to 17. I hope the Minister will reflect on that; it requires a response.

However, I want to focus on the key point that the family have raised with me: the definition of what happens. The incident that led to George’s death happened despite all the conditions in place for keeping airguns safe in a property, and they could still lead to potentially dangerous activity today. The law currently states:

“It is an offence for a person in possession of an air weapon to fail to take reasonable precautions to prevent someone under the age of 18 from gaining unauthorised access to it. A defence is provided where a person can show that they had reasonable grounds for believing the other person to be aged 18 or over. The maximum penalty for someone convicted of this new offence is £1,000.”

I want to ask the Minister, on behalf of my constituents, what a reasonable precaution is. If the air weapon was a proper firearm—I say that pejoratively; it still has the ability to kill—it would be required to be kept locked in a metal cabinet with access denied to anyone but the keyholder. It would be under the control of the keyholder under the regulations that I have referred to.

I want the Government to consider a simple, small change on behalf of my constituents—a small, but important change that would bring the current legislation on air weapon ownership into line with the ownership of other weapons. The wording of the current legislation should be tightened to clarify that air weapons must be stored and locked in a metal gun cabinet. If that were the case and we had greater controls, we might prevent further tragic incidents, such as that which happened to my constituent, George Atkinson. At the moment, it could happen tomorrow, to anybody who has airguns in their property.

Although clarifying the legislation might not stop an incident occurring—because people can leave cabinets unlocked—it will ensure that if an incident does occur, there is clarity about who is responsible, why it has occurred and where there has been a failing. I do not believe there is sufficient clarity in the current definition of “reasonable precautions”. The phrase does not mean anything—it is open to judicial discretion. It does not mean a locked metal cabinet. This is a small but significant change, which would deter unauthorised access, particularly among individuals under the age of 17. In this case, they were as young as 13, and George’s cousin was 10. They explored the use of that weapon and had access to it because of the lack of secure protection.

The family have not asked for this, but it is an important issue for me: there should also be a requirement for all new air weapons to be sold with a trigger lock. In my constituent’s case, access to the weapon was possible because it was not in a locked cabinet, but the accident that resulted in my constituent’s death happened because they touched the trigger and did not expect the trigger to be used. It was an accident. With not just a locked cabinet but a trigger lock on the airgun, authorised use is controlled. This is not about banning airguns; it is about providing an additional safeguard. George’s death exemplified how a trigger can accidentally be pulled and result in death. The purchase of trigger locks with air weapons would greatly improve the safety of those weapons and militate against George’s case being repeated.

The family has also looked over the border and asked that I seek clarity on the Government’s position on licensing arrangements, given what is happening in Scotland. I have sat where the Minister sits, in that Department, doing that job. I know how difficult the challenges are. I am not today arguing for a licensing system, but it is important that we get clarity on the Government’s view, given that from 31 December there will be a licensing system in Scotland. Those wanting to buy an air weapon will have to apply for a licence as if it were for a normal firearm. Although there are already conditions in place, the licensing regime will provide further elements of control over access to those weapons.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way—I did seek his permission to speak before the debate, Sir David. There are 34 items of legislation in place in relation to firearms. The British Association for Shooting and Conservation has put forward some recommendations, including that no one under the age of 18 should have an air rifle except under supervision. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the legislation in place is fairly thorough? Does he feel that enforcing supervision more rigorously might be a way of moving forward?

[Mr Hanson]

If the hon. Gentleman had been here at the start of the debate, he would have heard me list most of those 34 items of legislation, because I recognise that those are important pieces of legislation. I am asking the Minister to look at two simple things: a lockable cabinet, so there is no access by children and young people who do not realise that this is a weapon that can kill, even though there are regular controls; and the issue of trigger locks. I entirely concur with the hon. Gentleman—the next portion of my speech covers this point—that it is important, as part of general understanding, that those who have weapons are encouraged to look at the good husbandry of those weapons. I spoke to a number of shooting organisations and individuals prior to the debate. They are very keen to ensure that we have proper training and proper use of gun clubs, with people getting involved in air gun clubs, so that they understand the complexities of the weapon and the fact that they can still be weapons that can cause danger and death if misused, despite all the legislation I have mentioned.

Clean Energy Investment

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I welcome the contribution made to the debate by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), not only today but over many years, and I support her objectives on this important issue. I am concerned about ensuring that we have a policy to tackle climate change, but also about creating jobs and creating a fluent, diverse, dynamic industry in places such as my area of north Wales.

When the Minister responds to the debate, I want to hear four simple commitments from her. I want to hear a welcome for the contribution that renewable energy industries such as solar, wind farm and tidal can make. We need a commitment to ensure that we help grow those industries in all parts of the United Kingdom—Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England. Crucially, we have to learn from Joe Biden’s lesson, which my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) mentioned, and put our resources where our policy mouth is. My right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley has mentioned the key decisions that we need to take to ensure that stability and future planning happen.

In my area, we have all parts of the renewable energy picture in place. My right hon. Friend and I were seasick together off the north Wales coast in February this year when we visited Gwynt y Môr wind farm, which opened earlier this year, in my constituency. I am sad to report that no Minister sought to attend the opening of the wind farm, even though it is the second biggest in the world, with €1.2 billion euros spent on turbines and €2 billion spent on the development overall. That is a massive investment, which creates jobs across the United Kingdom.

Only last week, I attended a wind farm presentation, where we saw that 220 jobs had been created in the Isle of Wight at Vestas for blades, jobs had been created at Lowestoft and 1,000 new jobs related to wind farms had been created at Siemens in Hull. I confess that we missed a trick in north Wales; we should have bid many years ago for that investment in manufacturing. We are now dependent on Mostyn docks in my constituency to assemble goods that are manufactured elsewhere, but there is opportunity for the future, because this industry will grow, to develop manufacturing across the country. Offshore wind at places such as Gwynt y Môr in my patch—the second-biggest wind farm in the world—Burbo Bank and North Hoyle have the ability to create jobs. Only last week, I met three apprentices employed by RWE Renewables to look at how they can learn skills for the future. This is high-skill, high-investment technology.

[Jim Shannon]

The Government could do more for tidal energy, which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned. We have done that in my constituency with SeaGen at Strangford Lough, which involved significant investment from our Government at home and from the industry. The opportunities for tidal energy creation are great. It is clean energy, and I am sure that it can be generated in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency, as it can in others.

[Mr Hanson]

One of the points that I want to touch on—briefly, because time is pressing—is the proposal for a tidal lagoon off north Wales, which will match the wind farm energy that is now being proposed. We are looking at how we can develop turbines off the coast that have the dual effect of generating energy and preventing flooding. The Minister should look at those interesting developments. Time does not permit me to go into the matter, but I want to flag up to her the fact that she should look at the tidal developments in north Wales and consider how Government can support them.

Solar is not a random idea; it is a practical way to promote renewable energy, and solar equipment is manufactured in north Wales at Sharp in Wrexham and at Kingspan in my constituency. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley has mentioned, however, the Solar Trade Association has said that it fears there will be 27,000 job losses in the industry because of the short-termism of Government policy. We need to address those issues.

I support my right hon. Friend in four areas: we urgently need to have an examination of the levy control framework for 2020; we need definitive statements on contracts for difference as soon as possible, so that people can plan; we need to look at the Solar Trade Association’s £1 plan; and, crucially, I would like the Minister to look imaginatively at how we can encourage public sector buildings—schools, hospitals and public council buildings—to develop solar.

Relocation Scheme (Syrians)

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Dobbin.

I begin by thanking the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) for raising this issue. It is an important one, and we need to focus on the Government’s response to what is an extremely serious crisis in the middle east. I listened with great interest to her account of her visit to the region. I have not been there in the current circumstances, but she painted a very clear picture of the pressures that exist.

Nevertheless, I genuinely cannot begin to understand what it means to be lifted out of a city such as Aleppo, where I may have lived a perfectly normal and busy working life, and to be removed from my country in circumstances of civil war before being placed in a foreign country, where all elements of humanity have gone and where there is a major humanitarian effort just to maintain a basic standard of living. Even in my constituency, which is in the far-flung regions of north Wales, there are people who have been in touch with me to tell me about the circumstances of their relatives in Syria who have been displaced in cities such as Aleppo. The hon. Lady has therefore done a service in bringing this issue to the House today.

I also took on board what my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said about his understanding of the experience of people in Syria. And the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) raised the issue of persecution, particularly of Christians, which is an important one that we need to reflect upon and consider in the context of today’s debate. The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) said that a wider issue—the political situation in Syria—needs to be resolved. It does, to stop the haemorrhaging of refugees from Syria in the first place.

I pay tribute to the Government for their humanitarian response in-region. I think that the Department for International Development is the second biggest donor in the world in terms of in-region activity, which is extremely good and positive. However, I go back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington and others have said: people are leaving the region because they cannot live there. They do not wish to leave; they want to be back in the region where they have lived, grown up and made their lives and careers. For them to do that, we have to respond in a helpful way and achieve the humanitarian aims we have set.

Since the conflict in Syria began more than three years ago, some 2.8 million people have fled the country. The vast majority are being sheltered by a small number of neighbouring countries, and although the international effort is helping, those countries are now struggling to cope. Lebanon, which has been mentioned, is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. It is now sheltering more than 1.1 million refugees from the Syrian conflict. The hon. Member for Brent Central mentioned Jordan, which was sheltering about 500,000 people in September 2013.

More than 50% of Syrian refugees are children. Last year, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Mr Antonio Guterres, said:

“Syria has become the great tragedy of this century—a disgraceful humanitarian calamity with suffering and displacement unparalleled in recent history.”

Earlier this year, I met Roland Schilling, the UNHCR’s UK representative, and I have met the Refugee Council, to see what we can do to take matters forward.

Members will know that there was pressure for us to adopt a scheme to allow refugees to come to the UK. Last Christmas, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) called publicly for Ministers to accept up to 500 Syrian refugees who met strict criteria—that they were torture victims, people with family connections in Britain or women and girls at high risk. She did that in response to the UN call for assistance, and we have been given the figures for other countries, but they are worth repeating. Some 21 countries have responded to the UN call for refugees to be accepted. Some 20,000 have been accepted by Germany, 1,500 by Austria, 1,200 by Sweden and 1,000 by Norway. The United States has given an open-ended commitment on resettlement. The many other countries that have taken refugees under the UN scheme include Ireland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, France, Finland, Denmark, Canada, Belgium and Belarus. We have to respond, and I hope the Government will, to ensure we play our role in meeting those international obligations.

The Government did not initially warm to my right hon. Friend’s call for 500 refugees to be accepted. We had a statement in the Commons, Home Office questions and an Opposition day debate calling for the matter to be addressed. We had pressure from Government Back Benchers during the statement and the Opposition day debate. During Prime Minister’s questions, pressure was put on the Prime Minister by not only my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, but Members on both sides of the House.

There was concerted pressure, but the former Immigration Minister, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), said any proposals would be a “token” gesture—that was the word that appeared in Hansard. However, the Government ultimately announced in a statement that they would accept refugees, reflecting UN proposals. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said, therefore, there is not a proud tradition on this issue. As a result of pressure from outside and inside the House, the Government accepted the need to act, and I was pleased when they did act.

I want to help the Minister, but my concern is that, as a result of the statement in January about accepting refugees, we have not seen materialise the sort of numbers—I am waiting for more information later—that would meet even the obligations my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford spoke of last Christmas.

[Jim Shannon]

I think there is a willingness in the nation we represent—the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—to see greater numbers coming here from Syria. If that is what I and other Members feel, it is up to the Government, and the Minister in particular, to respond with the numbers we wish to see coming. That is the issue: if people want this, the Government should reflect that.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend—I hope I can call him that—for raising that issue. We need to put on record the fact that refugee status is not the same as immigration. There is general concern about immigration, but these people would, I believe, ultimately want to return to their home nation when the situation there was settled and the conflict that drove them out of their home nation in the first place was resolved. There is a willingness to help, and there has been historically.

Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Monday 10th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I welcome the fact that we have had a wide-ranging debate. There have been some significant and moving contributions from Members on both sides of the House. There has been a great deal of consensus on some aspects of the Bill. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) and, on behalf of the Home Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) have said, there is much in the Bill that the Opposition support, which leads us not to oppose its Second Reading. There are many issues on which we find a good resonance with the Government’s proposals, in what I accept is a Christmas tree Bill. It has many important aspects that will have our support.

I fully support the new criminal offence of possessing a firearm with intent to supply. In my last few months as the policing Minister, I visited the firearms centre in the west midlands and was lobbied hard on that very issue. A gun can turn up in offence after offence because it is for hire. We want to consider some further issues concerning domestic violence and owning a firearm, but we will accept and support that measure.

We support provisions on the new College of Policing. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East, we want to look at governance, composition and diversity, but in principle we support the power to issue regulations. I will also seek to scrutinise in detail the pay and negotiation proposals, but in principle we will give them a fair wind, and test some of the issues in Committee.

It will come as no surprise that we support extending the powers of the Independent Police Complaints Commission to oversight of private staff employed by police forces. My right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State raised that issue before the Bill was published, and we will want to consider constructively in Committee how to respond to IPCC recommendations and its role.

The measures on forced marriage have cross-party support. I was pleased to hear the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) give his voluble support to those proposals. The law should be strengthened to build on the work done to stop forced marriage, and we will build on positive measures by the previous Government, although I accept that there are issues that can be reflected on now, which will help to ensure that we have fairness and protection of individuals while still respecting traditions in our communities.

We will certainly support measures giving immigration officers stop-and-search powers, which I think is reasonable, particularly given the nature of terrorism that we have at the moment. We support the principle of community remedy under clause 93, but again we will want to test that to a good degree in Committee. We strongly believe that restorative justice and community resolutions should be used when dealing with antisocial behaviour, but we need greater clarity about what that means, not just a list of actions that authorities could take, which the Bill gives at the moment. We need more definition. I hope that we can explore those issues constructively in Committee.

I am also pleased to look at the powers of police community support officers. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) for his constructive and helpful remarks. He—dare I say it—reached out to Opposition Members with his support for previous policies. For that I am grateful, because it does not happen all that often. We will certainly look at those issues constructively and work with him, if he happens to be a member of the Public Bill Committee, to look at how we can form a consensus.

We will examine the clauses on victims’ services. We do not want to vote against them at this stage, but we have concerns about their fragmentation through commissioning by police commissioners and want to know what the relationship will be with national commissioning. We will test those concerns accordingly in Committee, as we will for the witness protection measures in clause 134, which were mentioned and supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones). They seem to be sensible measures that deal with some wider issues.

A number of issues raised in the debate will be looked at closely in Committee. I was particularly impressed by the remarks the hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) made on sexual exploitation, and indeed by the Home Secretary’s generous intervention, when she said that she would look at discussing in Committee the role of hotels and guest houses. Again, we will have an opportunity to test that. The points made by the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) on bullying were well made, and the cross-party discussions we have had tonight show that there is a potential consensus on really scrutinising those matters in Committee.

Early intervention, which was mentioned by the hon. Members for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), is extremely important. If there are constructive suggestions, the Opposition will look at them, because we recognised when in government that early intervention is key to preventing future poor behaviour. That support can be mirrored in a number of ways, and that is what we will do.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) mentioned knife possession and the experience in Blackpool. I had some sympathy with the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) when she mentioned Travellers, litter and responsibility. That has had an impact in my constituency, which is a tourist area, and we will happily look at that in Committee.

There remain two main areas where there was the potential for consensus, but not necessarily with Government Front Benchers. The first relates to the question of how we deal with legislation on dogs and dog control issues. The RSPCA, ACPO, the CWU, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, the Dogs Trust and the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), have all suggested that the measures in the Bill are not sufficient for meeting the challenges of the problem.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The shadow Minister will be well aware of Northern Ireland’s dangerous dogs legislation, which is referred to as five-star because of the steps that have been taken. Does he feel that it is perhaps not too late for the Government to consider that legislation as the method for trying to control dogs here in England, by making the Bill more specific, rather than generic, as it is now?

[Mr Hanson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. The model in Northern Ireland could certainly be considered, as it has much merit.

I think that the Minister needs to reflect on the matter, because as the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham said, he will face some challenges in Committee on those issues. The RSPCA, the CWU, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, the Dogs Trust and the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee have all raised concerns and suggested that we need to look at some further matters, so I think that the Minister needs to come to Committee prepared to deal with those concerns. I say that not least because of the cases we have heard about today. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) mentioned John Paul Massey and the recent case of Clifford Clarke. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) mentioned the death of Jade Lomas Anderson. Last week I had the privilege of meeting her determined parents with my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), who over many months and years has given much time to this issue, raised dog control notices. When the RSPCA says that

“This is a missed opportunity and we cannot understand why the Government has ignored the majority of the public, politicians and organisations”,

we clearly have an issue to which we should return. Not one voice from the Government or Opposition Back Benches opposed those views during this debate. In February, the EFRA Committee said that the proposals were “woefully inadequate”. I am sorry that the Government produced this Bill prior to receiving the Committee’s comments.

During our discussions today, a powerful case has been made for considering measures on dangerous dogs. The Bill is far too weak on this immensely serious issue. For example, local authorities would be allowed to prevent dogs from entering a playground but could not ban them from streets and shopping areas. There are anomalies that we need to test and look at in detail. Dog control notices could ensure muzzling of dogs in places which the public access, the neutering of dogs, and the owner and dog having to attend and complete training courses. Battersea Dogs and Cats Home says:

“We are looking for the Government to introduce Dog Control Notices which will do more to provide for early intervention and prevention.”

I hope that the Government will listen to the voices across the Chamber that have asked for that.

The other big issue is antisocial behaviour orders. Opposition Members expressed the concern—I admit that it was potentially more partisan—that the lack of criminal sanction is an error that weakens the Government’s proposals and means that antisocial behaviour will not be tackled as effectively in future. We will test that in Committee and table amendments accordingly. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South and other hon. Friends stressed that that lack of criminal sanction is key to the effectiveness or otherwise of antisocial behaviour orders. The community trigger may not be effective in this context. Three complainants are needed before a complaint will even begin to be taken seriously, and that needs further review. Coupled with that, we have cuts in the community safety budget, cuts in police numbers and, even after a heckle by the hon. Member for Cambridge, a lack of commitment to CCTV cameras to provide really good support to policing in our communities.. That shows that there is the potential for a weakening of powers.

Sadly, I will end on a partisan note. The weakening of the provisions on DNA, the reduction in CCTV, the reduction in police numbers and the cuts in the community safety budget show that this Government are not tackling crime, disorder and antisocial behaviour in a way that will increase confidence within our communities.

department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hanson]

My hon. Friend and I have both been in the House since 1992 and I vividly remember the Milk Marque being abolished in the early 1990s, which led to a free-for-all that caused some difficulties. Let us put those issues to one side, however, as I am concerned about how we can make progress today.

The Minister has an opportunity to explain to the House how he is progressing on the voluntary code. If a voluntary code does not succeed, he will certainly have my support and that of my hon. Friends on the Front Bench, I think, for a statutory code in due course. The key issue, however, is how to ensure that those who produce get a fair price for their produce. At the moment, the big businesses mentioned by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire in his opening remarks, such as Robert Wiseman, can squeeze my constituents to the extent that they cannot make a living out of the production of milk.

Much of the milk produced in my constituency does not go to retail in supermarkets; it goes into the production of butter, yoghurts, cheese and other produce. The code needs to encompass not just supermarkets but all outlets for milk.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman feel the same concern as many of us about the large investments that farmers have had to make because of the new regulations on slurry and its disposal? That investment, on top of a worse price for milk, makes it more difficult for them to survive.

[Mr Hanson]

The key point is that whatever challenges farmers face in their investment and their businesses, no business can take the type of change that has been imposed now with a 2p cut some months ago followed by a further 2p cut by August. That is being imposed by businesses that are choosing to do so to enable supermarkets to have loss leaders. Customers can have cheaper milk, which must be welcomed in some ways, but ultimately we need a fair deal for all. We need a fair deal for producers, for supermarkets and for those people who buy and transport milk and make it into other products. At the moment, that is not happening because, as the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) said, the inflexibility of contracts means that farmers cannot get out of them.

We need an update from the Minister on the review of the contracts and an examination of how we can ensure long-term stability for milk production. We need the voluntary examination of contracting and, if that fails, we need the Government to take regulatory action to ensure that the interests of all parties in this important industry, not just in my area of north Wales but throughout the United Kingdom, are defended.

Finally, will the Minister update us on his discussions with my colleagues in the National Assembly for Wales? They have a devolved responsibility for some aspects of dairy production but contracting legislation must be dealt with on a UK-wide basis to ensure that markets are not further distorted between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. I support what the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire wants to see, which the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) will no doubt comment on in a moment.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In Northern Ireland, we have a large expanse of CCTV. In my area, we have them in our town, but there is a demand coming from the general public. The right hon. Gentleman has given one example in which cameras have proved useful. In the town that I represent, the general public want CCTV. It has reduced crime in the town centre by 50%, car theft by 45% and theft of other items by 55%. Clearly, CCTV can deliver and is a sleeping policeman that reduces crime.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend—if I can call him that—for his comments. I shall quote from an article last week in the Batley and Birstall News:

“Sgt Chris Hughes from Batley Neighbourhood Policing Team said the cameras were a ‘massive plus’ for the police. He said: ‘CCTV is independent evidence at the end of the day telling us exactly what’s going on and whether someone should be charged with an offence or not. CCTV is a massive, massive investigation tool for the police. We rely on it for everything from street crime to terrorist activity and murder.’”

In supporting the new clauses and amendments tabled by my hon. Friends, I simply point out that the coalition agreement states clearly that the Government want to roll back “state intrusion”. That sends a signal about a starting place which is not the starting place I am at.