English Votes for English Laws and North Wales

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

I understand why the hon. Gentleman makes that point, but I am talking about specialisms, not general hospitals or general practitioners. Hospitals in England used by patients from North Wales were built by North Wales people specially in those locations to serve England and Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. Let us be honest; we cannot have specialisms in every region of England and every part of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. We have some of the best hospitals in the world in certain areas of the UK, and we need to be able to discuss them in the UK Parliament. It is not right to exempt MPs from that. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s frustration at having no say on general health issues in Wales, but it is more important to look at specialisms and the reality of what our constituents face, rather than the theory to which he refers.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) makes a valid point about a frustration he faces, but he can still speak on equal terms in this Parliament to the Secretary of State for Wales or the Department of Health and raise those issues. Under the Government’s proposals, he would not be able to speak or move amendments on those issues at all.

[Albert Owen]

Other Members, if they catch your eye, Mr Crausby, will be able to give examples of using services closer to the border in far more detail than I will, but I am laying out the context. It is a dangerous constitutional move to exempt UK Members in a UK Parliament. We are all here as equals. I do not want to be a second-class MP. I want the same rights and responsibilities as other Members.

We should have a written constitution to underpin all this. The present situation is a mess. We celebrate 800 years of Magna Carta, but we do not have a 21st-century constitution. The world has changed in those 800 years. We did not have NATO, the UN or the EU back then. We need to look at our constitution and the bloody battles we had instead of resolving this around the institutions.

I do not think the Conservative party and the coalition looked at the issue seriously. I do not agree with the Scottish National party when it talks about independence, but I do think it has the right to have that debate. Scotland had the debate and the vote. Its Members of Parliament were elected under the same franchise as the Welsh, Northern Irish and English Members and they have the same rights in this place, which is what I am defending. However, the North Wales case is special because of our east-west relationship in transport, health and the economy. We have large employers in England and large employers in Wales, and there are cross-border issues in that regard that are dealt with by the UK Parliament. I would have spoken for longer on some of the technical issues, but this debate is about empowering people and maintaining the right of MPs to speak on their behalf.

We need to have a proper UK convention on the constitution. We cannot go on piecemeal; we need to look at this in a broad context, and it cannot be done behind closed doors or in corridors. A Conservative manifesto is being pushed through without thought to exempt a large number of MPs from debates who represent areas that have been represented here for centuries. One reason we had the Act of Union when Wales became a part of the United Kingdom was to have equal representation, and that has not changed. I understand the need to have fewer MPs from areas where there are devolved Administrations, but we should not exempt those Members from voting on laws in the UK Parliament.

Let us have a proper debate. I hope that today’s discussion will help to highlight the North Wales question in some way. The Leader of the House has said that he wants a proper debate on English votes for English laws, but I want to debate the whole issue, and I want to protect my constituents’ right to elect an MP who can speak on their behalf.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I entered the Chamber this morning equal to every other Member attending the debate. I have been a Member of Parliament for 23 years, during which time I have been equal to other Members. That includes the time when the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) was Secretary of State for Wales, even though the Government of which he was part had no mandate from elected Members of Parliament in Wales, and, likewise, the time when Lord Hunt was Secretary of State for Wales. I have been an MP at times when we had Labour Secretaries of State for Wales, and when the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) was Secretary of State for Wales.

Wales has a 170-mile border, and 50% of the population of Wales live within 25 miles of it. That means that my constituents access services, employment and a range of other things in England as well as Wales. It is important to recognise that, and to look at the key challenges mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). We need to examine how we develop a constitutional settlement that reflects the needs and the real challenges of people who represent seats in England, but feel that they have no say on matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

A number of my constituents work for the fire service in Merseyside, Cheshire or Shropshire. I have key transport links in Crewe; the Halton curve provides a key link between Liverpool and services in North Wales, but it is in England. My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) mentioned the line to Bidston from Wrexham, which goes through north Wales and is a key issue on both sides of the border. Arriva Trains Wales is devolved, but Virgin Trains provides a service that is not devolved.

There are health services in my constituency that are serviced by providers in England. Specialist services are at Clatterbridge, the Christie and the Royal Liverpool, because of the nature of our region. A third of my constituents were born in England—many at the Countess of Chester hospital, but some, like me, were born elsewhere in England. That even includes people who have played football for England, although they resided all their lives in Wales; they qualify for England because they were born in a hospital in England.

My next-door neighbours are teachers in England. I have constituents who are police officers in Merseyside, Cheshire or Shropshire. The nearest airports to my constituency are Liverpool and Manchester. I have constituents who work at Vauxhall Ellesmere Port in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston, or in Chester at the banking and financial institutions there. Why is that important? When Vauxhall Ellesmere Port was under pressure and delegations went to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in England about support funding to keep jobs in the area, I was able to participate. Furthermore, farmers from the constituency of the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) come to Mold market in my constituency. They come from England to sell their produce in North Wales. What matters in England matters to my constituents in Wales.

[Mr David Jones]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hanson]

I only have a short time and I want to ask the key question: who decides what is a Welsh issue? Under the proposals, the Speaker is supposed to decide. What openness, transparency and representations will there be? How will the Speaker determine what is an English-only matter, particularly when the Government have said that they will extend the principle of English consent to financial matters? Who decides, and what does that mean for not only votes but key questions in the House of Commons? Will I be able to table parliamentary questions in the House of Commons as an equal Member? Will I be able to speak in Westminster Hall as an equal Member? Will I be able to ask for a meeting with the Minister of an English-only Department about matters to do with the fire service, the police, health, schools or employment in my area?

[Ian C. Lucas]

We don’t know.

[Mr Hanson]

Will I be able to undertake—[Interruption.] The answer to the question, as my hon. Friend said, is that we do not know. We do not know as yet, because the proposals are not there. We need clarity.

Finally, this issue is important to the unity of the United Kingdom. I cannot believe that the Conservative and Unionist party has made such proposals. I made this point in the main Chamber the other week: Gordon Brown represented a seat in Scotland and was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom; Jim Callaghan represented a seat in Wales and was Prime Minister; and Andrew Bonar Law and Alec Douglas-Home represented seats in Scotland and were Conservative Prime Ministers. Are we saying that no such Prime Minister can ever stand at the Dispatch Box again, or that they would say, “I’m very sorry, I can’t answer that question, because it is devolved to Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland”? If that is the position of the Conservative and Unionist party, it has come an awful long way from the Conservative party I once knew.