Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Davis and Simon Clarke

Tuesday 28th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clarke]

We provide regular updates on the amount of money lost to fraud because all Members on both sides of the House want action to pursue perpetrators. We have shown our intention in this space with a series of targeted interventions against fraud, the most recent of which is putting in place the new Public Sector Fraud Authority, which goes live in July.

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

The laws around IR35 are loosely defined, and it looks as though Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is using the tribunals and courts to pin down the case law on it. The effect is that I now know of a number of people whose legal bills are many times what their original tax bill might have been. This is impoverishing them, and in some cases bankrupting them, and obviously it is terrifying them. Will the Chancellor institute a review of this procedure? Although it is important that HMRC raises all the money necessary, it should not do so by destroying lives.

Motorhomes and Vehicle Excise Duty

Debate between David Davis and Simon Clarke

Tuesday 21st January 2020 Westminster Hall

[Mr Clarke]

That is a typically passionate intervention from my hon. Friend. I take his points to heart, and the Government are listening. Clearly in this context, we can only make announcements at fiscal events. It is important to note that we are hearing the strong messages that people are sending out.

[Mr David Davis]

The Minister has my sympathy. I have a sense of déjà vu from the omnishambles Budget, when the last attempt was made to attack pasties and caravans. At the time, I spoke to a predecessor in his post. I said, “You will lose taxes as a result of the impact on jobs, trade and so on.” He said, “Well, we don’t do calculations that way in the Treasury”, to which my response was, “You ought to.” This policy is masquerading as a green policy. It is destroying jobs in my constituency in Haltemprice already. It is hurting the poorest in our society in terms of their natural holidays travelling around the country. As we have heard, it is replacing staycations with trips to Cyprus and so on, which will use more in one trip than these vehicles use in one year. I look forward not to the Minister solving the issue today—I know that that is not within his reach—but to it being solved in the Budget.

[Mr Clarke]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his remarks. Everyone who bears the scars of taking on him and his colleagues in the context of the 2012 Budget changes will well remember that. The Government are certainly resolute that it is sensible to have a system in place that discriminates on the basis of emissions. How we calibrate that, and the way in which we operate the system, is kept under constant review. It is worth, in that context, pointing out that the current VED system applies to all light passenger vehicles, not just motorhomes, with a recorded CO₂ figure registered from 1 April 2017. That includes all vehicles that fall within the category M1.

I imagine that all Members spend their time reading up on category M1, which covers those vehicles defined as designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising eight seats or less, in addition to the driver’s seat. In addition, regulations relating to the worldwide harmonised light vehicle test procedure include a requirement for any multi-stage build vehicle, including motorhomes, to record their CO₂ emissions and fuel consumption on their type approval certificate.

[Mr Clarke]

I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. He, like many others, has been assiduous in drawing attention to companies in his constituency that stand to be affected. Clearly, we planned to have a fiscal event in the autumn. Events supervened, and I am very glad that they did, but the March Budget gives us the opportunity to assess the tax, as we do all taxes, in the round.

To defend the Government’s record on this matter, we were explicit that motorhomes with a CO₂ figure would be part of the graduated VED system introduced in 2017, and my officials are in constant dialogue with the automotive sector. I have held productive talks with the National Caravan Council, accompanied by you, Sir David. Talk about having a partial Chair.

[Mr Davis]

He is a total Chair, not a partial one.

[Mr Clarke]

Indeed. The NCC is a passionate champion for its sector, and I look forward to further conversations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Clarke]

The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue with me in the House at Treasury questions. He is obviously very committed to ensuring that we look at it again. Of course, VED is a one-off expense that is paid at the point of purchase; it does not accrue to the running costs per se. The way in which we tax that is through fuel duty. If someone drives more miles, they will pay more fuel duty. That is the real correlation and link. However, I recognise that, if people do not use the vehicles a great deal during the course of any given year, VED represents a substantial one-off cost in the first year of operation.

[Mr Davis]

I thank the Minister for being so generous in giving way. On that exact point, perhaps the best thing to compare, if he wants to look at more than one-off costs, is the first six years, which can be reasonably compared. A light commercial vehicle doing 8,000 miles a year will have to meet £3,325; for a motorhome doing 3,000 miles a year, it is £4,460. It is a ridiculous comparison.

[Mr Clarke]

We are trying to standardise the way in which we deal with VED. There is a particular grievance at the moment that it applies to motorhomes but not to vans, for example, as the hon. Member for Newport West mentioned. In the 2018 Budget, the Government confirmed that vans would move to a CO₂-based emissions system, which will apply from April 2021. At that point we will have at least ended the imbalance between the treatment of one sector and another. Clearly, we need to look very closely at how we move forward, in order to ensure that the operation of VED does not penalise people who use such vehicles relatively infrequently. I understand the distinction between vehicles that are on the road every day or every week and those that may be on the road for only a month or two in any given year.