Business of the House

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Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am sorry for intervening on my noble friend, but I find it utterly extraordinary that we have just listened to a Motion being moved by a leading Member on the Opposition Front Bench who simply would not take an intervention. This debate can be solved so easily. Over the last two or three decades, the House has developed an extremely successful practice for dealing with urgent Bills. We do Second Reading on one day and we take Committee and the remaining stages either the next day or the day after that. I understand that the Bill is urgent, but there is absolutely no reason to have all stages taken on one day.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is not making an intervention, which means a short question—he is making a speech. I wonder whether he would look at the Companion and see what it has to say.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am happy to give way to my noble friend if he wishes to finish his point, but I think he made it pretty clearly. The noble Baroness suggests that this has all got to be done today. Why? We could sit tomorrow or we could continue on Monday. There is no reason at all why it should all be done today.

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[Lord Pannick]

That the Question be now put.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Countess of Mar) (CB)]

My Lords, I am instructed by the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered a most exceptional procedure, and that the House must not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if the Member who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Motion be put without debate.

[Lord Pannick]

I wish to move the Motion.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The Question now is that the Question be now put.

[Noble Lords]

Which Question?

[Lord True]

My Lords, we must vote on the closure Motion that the noble Lord has moved, stopping a number of people who wish to address an important point in so far as the procedure of this House is concerned. If I can be helpful to the noble Lord, the procedure is that we now vote on that, if he would like to move for closure.

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, there is no debate on this. The Question is that the Question be now put.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Leave out from “move” to the end and insert “that the Standing Orders of the House relating to public business shall apply to all proceedings on the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.5) Bill.”

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I say that, if any of the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, the noble Lord, Lord True, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, or the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, are agreed to, I will not be able to call the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, and the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, by reason of pre-emption. In addition, if any of the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, the noble Lord, Lord True, or the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, are agreed to, I will not be able to call the amendment in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, before we move to the next speech, I make a plea. Those of us who sit at this end of the Room cannot hear what is being explained from the Woolsack. I ask the authorities of the House, if the human race can send people to the moon and do wonderful things, how is it that we cannot get a sound system by which we can hear very important notifications about what we are supposed to be doing?

Salisbury Incident

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Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House mentioned that the ongoing risk to public health is low, but I am concerned about the 38 people who reported to the hospital that they had been exposed last Sunday. I know that the noble Baroness has seen the report in the Times of an interview with Mr Vil Mirzayanov, who said that the chemical was 10 times more powerful than nerve gas, that the damage to the human body was “irreparable”—which is what I said to the noble Baroness on Monday—and that there is no cure. He said that symptoms might develop gradually, so the people who were cleared on Sunday might well develop symptoms later, and that anyone exposed should have permanent medical surveillance. Would the noble Baroness kindly ask the Secretary of State for Health to advise all GPs in the Salisbury area of the possibility that patients might come with severe health problems later on in life? I know that the symptoms can be very bizarre and am concerned that these patients are not set on the mental health route. Would she also give those who have reported—they can presumably be traced—some sort of identification or ensure some means of getting on to their medical notes the fact that they have been exposed, even in tiny amounts?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are certainly aware of a number of individuals who have presented at Salisbury District Hospital following the recent incident. Those individuals have been assessed and discharged, and have been advised that if they subsequently feel unwell they should re-present at hospital. Advice has been provided to GPs, acute hospitals and emergency departments across the NHS on the action that should be taken if individuals present following exposure to chemicals. There is some evidence that repeated exposure to trace levels of a contaminant over an extended period could cause harm, and that is why a lot of the focus of the current work is on preventing long-term exposure. However, I shall take the comments and suggestions made by the noble Countess back to the Department of Health.

Salisbury Incident Update

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Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Prime Minister’s Statement and the strong language that she has used in deploring what has taken place. I know she must be basing that on intelligence and information she has received in the last days, which point towards it being “highly likely”—a high standard of proof—that Russia was responsible for these poisonings. We know that, even if this was not the work of Russian agents, there is evidence that Russia frequently outsources some of this kind of activity. Having watched closely the developments around Litvinenko, my concern is that we did not learn the lessons then and put in place a Magnitsky law. I want to challenge the idea that the pieces of law that we have managed to put together from different legislation that has gone through this House in recent years fill all the gaps; it is my suggestion that they do not. We had to fight very hard—

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness but is she aware that this is the time for Back-Bench questions, not for statements or discussion?

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[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition wished the police officer involved a full recovery. I know from experience, as do hundreds of farmers, that any exposure to organo-phosphates is permanent and irreversible. Will the Minister ensure that anyone exposed is looked at for psychoneurological and autonomic nervous system problems, because that seems to be where it strikes most?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments, and I am sure that our fantastic health services are doing all they can to support those who have been in contact with this agent. Once again, we wish Detective Sergeant Bailey all the best for a speedy recovery.

Food Supply: Sustainability

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Monday 14th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Lord should be congratulated on weaving in his very strong support for the Navy and all that goes with it. It is important to know that 76% of indigenous-type foods come from the UK, as do 62% of all foods. Interestingly, that is by no means low in the context of the last 150 years, and in fact between the wars, the proportions were much lower. However, I am of course very keen on British production.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

Does the noble Lord agree that if we are to have sustainable food production, we must ensure that our soils are in good heart? Can he say what he is doing to protect the soil and to improve its condition?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, new national standards for agricultural soils under cross-compliance were introduced only on 1 January this year. Clearly, it is essential, if we are to be even more productive, to ensure that our soil is in good heart and that we improve it wherever we can.

Proposed Changes to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons

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Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, when I sought to intervene, a little too late, on the prompt conclusion of the proposal to the House from the noble Lord, Lord Butler, I wanted to ask him one question. He is proposing a Joint Committee. Recently, we have had an election and seen the arrival of a substantial number of Scottish National Party MPs who previously observed the principle of a self-denying ordinance, but have made it clear that they do not think this quite applies in the same way any more. I wanted to intervene in order to ask: while this Standing Joint Committee is taking place, what will cover any problems arising from legislation in the mean time? We have had some very interesting—

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but would he please turn around and address the House?

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

The noble Countess is the first Member of this House ever to have criticised me for addressing her. I do apologise.

I raise that point because there are very difficult issues that need to be addressed, and the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition has made it clear that the Labour Party also recognises that. These issues have tested Governments over many years, as my noble friend Lord Wakeham said; we all remember Tam Dalyell and his problems with the West Lothian question.

The Government have put forward some proposals. If noble Lords study Mr Grayling’s speech and the interventions he took when the Commons debated this issue recently, they will see that the Government have recognised that these proposals are subject to further revision; however, they do ensure that something is in place for the forthcoming year. If we have a Standing Joint Committee that, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, has to report by March 2016, that report will then have to be considered. One can therefore write off the next Session of Parliament—nothing will change until the next Summer Recess. It would be sensible to see what problems emerge from the Government’s proposals.

As the Leader of the Commons has made clear, what we are proposing is likely to come forward for approval there in September, and he has asked the Chairmen of the Commons Procedure Committee, and the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, to start monitoring the situation now, rather than waiting until May 2016, as my noble friend suggested, to see where the problems arise.

The advantage with Standing Order changes, as opposed to going down the statutory route at this stage, is that if issues arise they can be tackled much more quickly. I do not rule out that at the end of this very difficult process, when perhaps by trial and error we have found the right basis on which to proceed, things could then be put on a statutory basis. That would meet the point that my noble friend Lord Forsyth made about the difficulties arising from a different Government coming in and changing everything. That is one approach that could be adopted.

Implications of Devolution for England

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Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for all the points that he has made and for his ongoing constructive contribution to this process.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

If I may correct the noble Baroness, there are in fact five Peers of Scotland in this House, all of whom are hereditary Peers, and I happen to be one of them.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Countess is absolutely right. I was not trying to suggest that there are no such Peers here in this House. The point I was making was that Peers do not represent a particular part of the country. We are all Peers representing the public and the national interest at large.

House of Lords: Oral Questions

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Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

If the noble Lord had been able to count the number of words that I gave in my Answer, he would see that it was spot on 75. The noble Lord has just forgotten his own self-injunction about pointing. I have spoken to my Front Bench, and I agree very much about the need for those initial Answers to be succinct. I also think that the shorter the questions, the tendency will be the shorter the answers. Long questions tend to lead to long answers.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that it becomes an embarrassment for people like me and the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, when we try to correct Members of the House, to be criticised by other Members for what we are doing when we are supposed to be self-regulating? It would be much easier if the Front Benches did a bit more.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am sure that all the Front Benches will have heard that point, but I very much agree with the noble Countess that all Members of this House have the responsibility to make their views known and hold the rest of us to account.

Arrangement of Business

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Monday 5th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a much better line. That is the noble Lord, Lord Peston, that I recognise; not the one who spoke a few minutes ago.

Let me just explain for a few moments to those who have questioned the process, the procedure and, indeed, my personal motivation in all of this. We do not have many rules in this House, but we do have some. One of them is that when an amendment is deemed inadmissible by the clerks, I have an absolute duty as Leader of the House—the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, if she were Leader of the House, would do the same thing; the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, did it in the incident to which I referred a few months ago—to draw that to the attention of the House. The House, ultimately, as the noble Lord, Lord Richard, said, is the arbiter of this. We cannot find an occasion—

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, the noble Lord said that the House ultimately is the arbiter of this, but the reason that he gave for the delay was that the Prime Minister and the leader of the Liberal Democrat party, the Deputy Prime Minister, would have to be consulted. If it is a matter for the House, why do they have to be consulted?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we are crossing two different things. One is my role as Leader and the other is when we take this. I thought it right, as did senior members of the Government, that there should be a period of discussion before bringing the business before the House. As I explain, they are two clearly different things: one is the role of the Leader of the House and the other is a decision for the Government. It must be right that the Government decide when to bring business forward; after all, that is the purpose of winning a general election.

The noble Baroness said: why cannot we have our say? She is entirely free and allowed to bring forward her own Private Member’s Bill at any stage and, if it is in order, it will be taken. My noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford asks an extremely sensible question: why cannot these brilliant individuals, such as the noble Lord, Lord Hart, with all his training and knowledge of this House, advised no doubt by outside counsel, not bring forward an admissible amendment? I do not know the answer to that. I urge the noble Lord to do so. Then we would not be having this debate.

I am grateful for the support of my noble friends Lord Dixon-Smith and Lord Crickhowell. There are matters of processing procedure that are not always straightforward in this House. I urge noble Lords who wish to discover more to go to the very excellent seminars that the Clerk of the Parliaments holds from time to time on these matters. They will discover that, as I said earlier, although we do not have very many rules, we do have some, and this is one of them. Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, my predecessor, said:

“It is a consequence of our procedures that the House has collective responsibility for observing these procedures and that all Members of your Lordships’ House therefore need to co-operate to see that procedures are observed”.—[Official Report, 20/4/99; col. 1112.]

I could not have put it better myself.

House of Lords: Behaviour in the Chamber

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Thursday 21st June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I hope my noble friend will take it up with the president of his party.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that it is not our place to criticise Members of another House?

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, and I think that the feeling should be reciprocated in both Houses.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 1)

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Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice]

Never. However, I appreciate for many other noble Lords coming into the House from other places—many of them not political chambers—it is not a great encouragement to involve oneself in the business of questions. I take very seriously what the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, says about the number of people who engage at Question Time not being entirely satisfactory.

We might, by this very, very modest change, be able to send a signal to ourselves and others that we want to see a greater involvement of the House as a whole. I accept that there is no ideal place to sit in this Chamber to see everyone. The Lord Speaker would obviously have some difficulty seeing those who are in wheelchairs but, as has already been observed, the Leader of the House has considerable difficulty seeing those who sit behind him, so there is no ideal place.

However, some things have been adduced in the debate that really do not apply and are actually a protection against the slippery slope over which noble Lords have great anxiety. There is no need with this particular change for technical advice to be provided to the Lord Speaker. There are no points of order, and no complicated questions of procedure apply in this case. Therefore the experience that I had to have, as indeed do Speakers in other places, of having a Clerk either in front or beside to give the kind of technical advice that is not easily facilitated in your Lordships’ House, simply does not apply with this very modest change. All that is being asked for—

[The Countess of Mar]

What would the noble Lord suggest should happen if people from those Benches, his Benches or this Bench got up at the same time and would not sit down?

[Lord Alderdice]

I am very grateful indeed to the noble Countess for raising that question. I think my noble friend the former Leader of the House raised a very interesting question that I saw raised a few eyebrows. He indicated that that responsibility lay with the leaders of the groups. I am not sure that I have observed the leaders of the groups and the Convenor intervening in that way. That would be a move away from self-regulation of the Chamber as a whole. The Lord Speaker move that is being proposed would not change that question; it would simply change identification of the groups, not the sides of the House, whether we are talking about the Convenor of the Cross-Benchers, Labour, Conservatives, Liberal Democrats or indeed the Bench of Bishops.

However, if the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Wakeham and pointed to by the noble Baroness were to be adopted and it was for the leaders of the various groups to indicate which of their colleagues should address the House, it would become extremely inappropriate for the Leader of the House to undertake that as the leader of the Conservatives. If it were to be taken in that way—and I am not sure that we actually are in that position—it would be even clearer that it should be the Lord Speaker who undertakes that. However, I find myself somewhat doubtful that that really is the way the House sees itself functioning. I think it wants to hold to a degree of self-regulation whereby the House as a whole calls for the Peer they wish to hear. That is really the preferable position for us to hold to, but there does seem to be a little uncertainty.

In conclusion—

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[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I am for self-regulation but I think that the usual channels could help us a little. We could be clearer, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, said, about whose turn it is and what the rules are. I think that there is a blockage in the usual channels which should be cleared. It creates conflicts every Question Time, which is unnecessary. I also think that the leaders of individual parties should be much better at disciplining their own members—either those who speak too frequently and stop others speaking or those who speak at too great a length. I get the impression that there is no effective discipline in that respect. It would help if one knew that someone who sins will be dealt with afterwards.

[The Countess of Mar]

I was very impressed with what my noble friend Lord Wright had to say and with what the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, said about courtesy and observing other people. I think that this is a temporary problem. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said that we are a smaller House than we used to be, but in fact an extra 100 people sit in the House each day, so there is more pressure on the House. We have had a sudden influx of people who do not understand the rules. I think that they are now bedding down, so the proposal is unnecessary, if not premature.