Deregulation Bill
Debate between Chi Onwurah and Tom Brake(10 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Tom Brake
It was perhaps remiss of me not to say how much I have enjoyed resuming our jousts across the Chamber on the Bill. I remind the House that the Bill will save businesses £300 million over 10 years, and that it will save the public sector £30 million. The Opposition say that it amounts to nothing, so in practice they are saying that £300 million of savings are not worth having. In our view, they are worth having.
I am glad that the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) has welcomed apprenticeships and the growth in their number. That is something on which we can all agree.
On to the issue of data sharing and the use of data, the hon. Lady underlined how, under the new Labour party proposals, citizens will be in control of their data. That is of course an interesting departure from what Labour Members did in government. With such things as identity cards, the retention of innocent peoples’ DNA, the massive database they wanted to create and indeed CCTV, they did the complete opposite of giving citizens control over their data.
The hon. Lady suggested that new clause 1 is a last-minute amendment, but of course it is not. It was flagged up in Committee, where we discussed the need for HMRC to share taxpayer information with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and others. I am therefore surprised that she was surprised.
Chi Onwurah
To be absolutely clear, the original Bill had a provision for the disclosure of information to the commissioners, but only for the purpose of arrangements made under clause 4(1), which very narrowly defines the purpose as being for payroll administration. However, new clause 1 is much broader, in that it is for anything
“in relation to…English apprenticeships.”
When the Bill comes back from the Lords, perhaps the provision will cover anything in relation to any BIS functions whatsoever. It is clearly being made wider and wider.
Tom Brake
I do not agree. The hon. Lady will find that the provision is quite tightly defined, and that should satisfy her.
The hon. Lady also referred to the need for safeguards. There will clearly be very significant safeguards for data exchange, and I will give some examples. For a new apprenticeship funding mechanism, as for any new system, the Skills Funding Agency will expect expert assessments of the information and security risks as part of the development on an ongoing basis. An action plan will be developed to address the risks identified, and the senior information risk owner will have to be satisfied that those risks have been sufficiently mitigated before any system goes live. There will be periodic system tests to see whether anyone can break into it. Staff duties will be segregated to protect information. All staff will complete annual training on protecting information, and any security breaches, including near misses, will have to be reported and acted on.
HMRC has a criminal sanction for wrongful disclosure of customer information. As I have stated, in providing its data to other Departments, the continuing protection of HMRC data is a vital safeguard that must remain in place. That is why the HMRC criminal sanction in section 19 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 applies to any wrongful disclosure by staff or contractors of a Department that receives HMRC information. In addition, while a legislative gateway may allow for the supply of information from HMRC to another Department, it is generally constructed so that the other Department is not permitted to pass on that information to another organisation, public or private, without recourse to HMRC, and that is the case with new clause 1.
The safeguards that the hon. Lady wants are therefore already in place. The data are secure, and any exchange of data will be done only under very tightly controlled procedures.
Chi Onwurah
The Minister’s words offer some reassurance on the systems to be put in place, but not on accountability. We have seen with universal credit that accountability for identity management and for the success of a project can be very diffuse. Who will own and therefore be accountable for this new IT system?
Tom Brake
I would love to be able to answer that question immediately, but, as the hon. Lady is aware, the consultation on the solution closed on 1 May, so the technical solution has not been devised. I am therefore not in a position to clarify precisely where the responsibility will lie, because the system is not yet specified. At the point of specification, I am sure we will be able to provide her with the clarity she needs.
I have provided examples, which the hon. Lady quoted, of the data that might be shared. As I have just said, the consultation closed on 1 May, so I am not in a position to give her an extensive list of the data that will be shared. I assure her that it will be restricted to the purposes for which it is required.
The hon. Lady asked why this matter is in the Deregulation Bill. One major thing that the Government are trying to deliver in the area of deregulation is to provide employers with a much greater say over the way in which apprenticeships are managed and the standards developed. We also want to ensure that employers have a greater financial stake in apprenticeships, because we believe that that will drive quality in apprenticeships. The Bill is therefore the appropriate vehicle in which to make the arrangements for the data sharing that we have discussed.
It is the Government’s clear objective to avoid, as far as is possible, any unnecessary exchange of data and any additional burden on businesses, especially small businesses, to provide information that they might already have provided to Government for other reasons. We want to minimise the need for businesses to provide additional information.
I hope that I have dealt with all the hon. Lady’s points.
Chi Onwurah
I thank the Minister for being generous in this last debate. It concerns me that he implies that a system does not have an owner until it has been specified. It is the owner of the system that should be specifying it in order to avoid the car crashes in IT development that we have seen under the Governments of both major parties. Again, will he come back to me with who owns the specification of this information-sharing gateway or data-sharing system?
Tom Brake
I am not in a position to do that. Assuming that HMRC and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are involved, they will want to play a major role in providing accountability for that system. The hon. Lady and I both went to Imperial college London. I went on to work in the IT industry, so I understand perfectly the importance of having somebody who is accountable for a system. I am certain that the Government will ensure that someone or a particular Department is very clearly accountable, and that the lines of responsibility and accountability are very clear.
With that, I commend the Government proposals and urge the Opposition not to press amendment (a) to new clause 1.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
Clause 3
Apprenticeships: simplification
Amendment made: 5, page 2, line 22, at end insert—
‘( ) Part 4 of the Schedule contains transitional provision.’.—(Tom Brake.)
This amendment is consequential on amendment 35.
Clause 4
English apprenticeships: funding arrangements
Amendments made: 6, page 2, line 26, leave out from ‘of’ to end of line 28 and insert
‘apprenticeship payments.
( ) “Apprenticeship payments” are payments that may be made by the Secretary of State to any person—
(a) for the purpose of encouraging the provision of opportunities for individuals to complete approved English apprenticeships or to undertake work following the completion of such apprenticeships, or
(b) otherwise in connection with approved English apprenticeships.’.
This amendment is to ensure that the Secretary of State may make arrangements with HMRC for HMRC to administer payments that may be made by the Secretary of State to any person in connection with approved English apprenticeships.
Amendment 7, page 2, line 28, at end insert—
‘( ) The arrangements that may be made under subsection (1) include arrangements under which the Commissioners are responsible for recovery where an apprenticeship payment is made but the whole or any part of it is (for whatever reason) recoverable by the Secretary of State.’.
This amendment clarifies, for the avoidance of doubt, that arrangements made under clause 4(1) may include responsibility for HMRC to recover any apprenticeship payments which are recoverable by the Secretary of State.
Amendment 8, page 2, line 33, leave out ‘employers’ and insert
‘persons of a description specified in the regulations’.
This amendment is consequential on amendment 6.
Amendment 9, page 2, line 38, leave out from ‘with’ to end of line 39 and insert ‘approved English apprenticeships’.
This amendment is consequential on amendment 6.
Amendment 74, page 2, line 39, at end insert—
‘( ) The regulations may, in particular, also provide that, where the Commissioners are responsible for recovering the whole or any part of an apprenticeship payment from a person of a description specified in the regulations, they may do so by deducting the amount from any payments that they would otherwise be required to make to that person and that are of a kind specified in the regulations.’.
This amendment ensures that, for the purposes of arrangements under clause 4(1), HMRC may make regulations to enable them to recover apprenticeship payments from persons, who will be described in the regulations, by making deductions from payments that HMRC would otherwise have to make.
Amendment 10, page 3, line 1, leave out subsections (5) to (8).
This amendment is consequential on amendment NC1.
Amendment 11, page 3, leave out lines 27 to 29.—(Tom Brake.)
This amendment is consequential on amendment NC1.
Schedule 1
Approved English apprenticeships
Amendments made: 27, page 53, line 9, leave out ‘prepare and’.
This amendment removes the requirement that the Secretary of State must prepare apprenticeship standards. It is related to amendment 28.
Amendment 28, page 53, line 11, at end insert—
‘( ) Each standard must be—
(a) prepared by the Secretary of State, or
(b) prepared by another person and approved by the Secretary of State.’.
This amendment allows for any person, including employers, to prepare apprenticeship standards (as well as the Secretary of State). A standard must be approved by the Secretary of State if it is prepared by another person.
Amendment 29, page 53, line 19, leave out from ‘State’ to end of line 24 and insert
‘may—
(a) publish a revised version of a standard, or
(b) withdraw a standard (with or without publishing another in its place).’.
This amendment, which is related to amendment 30, allows for the Secretary of State to publish an amended version of a standard or to withdraw a standard (with or without publishing another one).
Amendment 30, page 53, line 24, at end insert—
‘( ) Revisions of a standard may be—
(a) prepared by the Secretary of State, or
(b) prepared by another person and approved by the Secretary of State.’.
This amendment allows for any person, including employers, to prepare revisions of apprenticeship standards (as well as the Secretary of State). A standard must be approved by the Secretary of State if it is prepared by another person.
Amendment 31, page 53, leave out lines 25 to 27.
This amendment removes the express provision for employers or their representatives to make proposals to the Secretary of State about standards. This is considered unnecessary in the light of amendments 28 and 30 which allow for an enhanced role for employers and other persons.
Amendment 32, page 55, line 25, at end insert—
‘1A (1) Section 100 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (provision of financial resources) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), after “financial resources” insert “under this subsection”.
(3) After subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State may secure the provision of financial resources to any person under this subsection (whether or not the resources could be secured under subsection (1))—
(a) for the purpose of encouraging the provision of opportunities for individuals to complete approved English apprenticeships or to undertake work following the completion of such apprenticeships, or
(b) otherwise in connection with approved English apprenticeships.”
(4) In subsection (3), after “subsection (1)” insert “or (1A)”.
(5) In subsection (4), after “subsection (1)(c)” insert “or (1A)”.
1B (1) Section 101of that Act (financial resources: conditions) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2)—
(a) after “may” insert “(among other things)”;
(b) omit paragraph (b).
(3) Omit subsections (4) and (5).
1C In section 103 of that Act (means tests), in subsection (1) (as amended by paragraph 13C of Schedule 13) after “section 100(1)(c), (d) or (e)” insert “or (1A)”.’.
This amendment is to ensure that the Secretary of State may make payments relating to approved English apprenticeships under section 100 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (provision of financial resources). It makes consequential changes to sections 100, 101 and 103 of that Act.
Amendment 33, page 56, line 17, leave out ‘employment’ and insert ‘service’.
This amendment, together with amendment 34, is to clarify that “apprenticeship training” in section 83 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 includes training provided in connection with any contract of service or contract of apprenticeship.
Amendment 34, page 56, line 18, after ‘agreement)’ insert ‘or contract of apprenticeship’.
See amendment 33.
Amendment 35, page 57, line 38, at end insert—
‘Part 4
Transitional provision
The provision that may be included in an order under section77(7) in connection with the coming into force of paragraph 1 of this Schedule includes provision—
(a) for work done by a person under an arrangement described in the order to be treated as work done under an approved English apprenticeship within the meaning of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, where the person begins to work under the arrangement before the paragraph comes into force and continues to do so (for any period) afterwards;
(b) for a standard published by the Secretary of State before the paragraph comes into force, in connection with work that by virtue of provision made under paragraph (a) is treated as work done under an approved English apprenticeship, to be treated as if it were an approved apprenticeship standard published under section A2 of the 2009 Act in relation to the approved English apprenticeship.’.—(Tom Brake.)
This amendment provides that the Secretary of State may by order make certain transitional provision, in particular, provision for work to be treated as if it were done under an approved English apprenticeship where the work was done under other specified arrangements before paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 comes into force.
Schedule 13
Abolition of office of the Chief Executive of Skills Funding
Amendments made: 55, page 142, line 14, leave out paragraph 8 and insert—
‘8 Omit section 85 (provision of apprenticeship training etc for persons within section 83 or 83A).’.
This amendment repeals section 85 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (which imposes a duty on the Chief Executive of Skills Funding to make reasonable efforts to secure employer participation in certain apprenticeship training) instead of transferring the duty to the Secretary of State.
Amendment 56, page 142, line 40, leave out paragraph 13 and insert—
‘13 (1) Section 100 (provision of financial resources) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1)—
(a) in the opening words, for “Chief Executive” substitute “Secretary of State”;
(b) in paragraph (a), for “Chief Executive’s remit” substitute “Secretary of State’s remit under this Part”;
(c) omit paragraph (f).
(3) Omit subsection (2).
(4) In subsection (3)—
(a) in the opening words, for “Chief Executive” substitute “Secretary of State”;
(b) in paragraph (c), for “Chief Executive” substitute “Secretary of State”.
(5) In subsection (4), for “Chief Executive” substitute “Secretary of State”.
13A (1) Section 101 (financial resources: conditions) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), for “by the Chief Executive” substitute “by the Secretary of State under section 100”.
(3) In subsection (3)—
(a) in paragraph (a), for “Chief Executive” (in each place where it occurs) substitute “Secretary of State”;
(b) in paragraph (b)—
(i) for “Chief Executive” (in each place where it occurs) substitute “Secretary of State”;
(ii) for “the functions of the office” substitute “functions under this Part”.
(4) In subsection (6)—
(a) in paragraph (a), for “Chief Executive” (in each place where it occurs) substitute “Secretary of State”;
(b) in paragraph (b), for “Chief Executive” substitute “Secretary of State”.
13B (1) Section 102 (performance assessments) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1)—
(a) for “Chief Executive” substitute “Secretary of State”;
(b) for “Chief Executive’s remit” substitute “Secretary of State’s remit under this Part”.
13C (1) Section 103 (means tests) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), for “The Chief Executive” substitute “For the purpose of the exercise of the powers under section 100(1)(c), (d) or (e), the Secretary of State”.
(3) Omit subsection (2).’.—(Tom Brake.)
This amendment transfers the funding powers of the Chief Executive of Skills Funding under sections 100 to 103 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 to the Secretary of State.
Bill to be further considered tomorrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Chi Onwurah and Tom Brake(11 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
3. What his policy is on extending pre-legislative scrutiny of Bills.
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)
The Government are committed, wherever possible, to publishing draft legislation for pre-legislative scrutiny. We published 17 draft Bills or sets of draft measures in the last Session, which is more than any other Government in any Session.
Chi Onwurah
Following last week’s announcement of a pause in proceedings on the reviled gagging Bill and the previous pause in the equally reviled Health and Social Care Bill, can the Leader of the House confirm whether this form of legislative coitus interruptus is becoming his preferred form of parliamentary planned parenthood?
Tom Brake
Clearly it is not. As I have stated, we have a very good track record with the largest number of Bills in pre-legislative scrutiny of any Government in any Session. In relation to what has happened in the Lords, they wanted more time and that is exactly what the Government have provided.