Future Immigration
Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Baroness Williams of Trafford(5 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I totally get the point that the noble Lord makes about technicians, particularly in research and science, because they are traditionally paid a lower salary. We will work through all this in the next year in getting towards the final suggestion for the salary level which, as I said earlier, is a suggestion from the MAC and not an intention from the Government at this stage. Regarding graduate students, if an undergraduate secures a graduate job the salary will of course be lower. At the moment, I think it is about £20,600. That remains the case but I hope that in the course of the consultation next year it will all be worked through. Please do not take it as a figure set in stone, my Lords.
Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)
What account have the Government taken of this policy’s impact on their own aspirations for housing development and infrastructure? Many of these projects last for longer than a year but we are talking about scarce construction workers, who are highly skilled but low paid, being able to stay only on a temporary 12-month work visa and then having to go home for a cooling-off period of at least a year. Yet these projects depend intensely on the continuity of their labour force, and about 30% of construction workers on projects in London alone come from the EU at the moment. This policy kicks the legs out from under the Government’s aspirations to provide better houses for people in this country and create major infrastructure to promote productivity.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness strikes to the heart of one of the Government’s major priorities—as did the noble Lord, Lord Shipley—which is to build the number of homes that this country needs for people to live in. As I said, we will be working with the construction sector and this is purely a consultation period. Nothing has been decided fully but of course we want construction workers to be able to be here to build the houses that we want. I should mention one other thing: as a nation, we want to upskill our own workers to work in these sectors, as we proceed towards our exit from the European Union.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord has just pointed out some very germane issues that go to the heart of the concerns that led to this amendment. It seems to me that there is a lack of clarity about why we are trying to introduce a permission in principle proposition. Therefore, I very much support the concerns that my noble friend has raised in moving this amendment.
It would be slightly amusing, if it were not so serious, to watch the stately dance we have all gone through in getting to the point that we have. I have become an aficionado of the Delegated Powers Committee’s reports, which I would never have said before. In fact, I am waiting with bated breath for the next one. I do not know whether noble Lords have noted that a touch of irony has inserted itself into the titling of the committee’s reports: the first was simply called Housing and Planning Bill: Government Amendments, and the next was called Housing and Planning Bill: Further Government Amendments. I am assuming that the next one will be called “Housing and Planning Bill: Even Further Amendments”. This stuff is getting more gripping than “The Archers” as the days go by, and that is entirely as a result of this being a half-formed principle with very little meat on its bones. We are all rather grappling with confusion about what the whole thing is aimed at.
I have real concerns that we are putting in the Bill an ability to grant permission in principle for any type of development in future if its sites are named in a qualifying document such as a local plan, a neighbourhood plan or a register. We already know that the Government have in mind not just a brownfield register but a small-sites register. Indeed, in her response to the Delegated Powers Committee, the Minister talked about wanting—“for example”, she said—the ability to extend the permission in principle proposal to retail or commercial sites. I kind of understand the argument that there is a need to pull something out of the hat to try to get housing sites through more quickly. However, so far, nobody has told me what the arguments are in respect of retail or commercial sites. Therefore, it seems rather rash if we pass legislation without being clear about the fundamental reasoning for changing something that is fundamental to the way that the planning process works. Indeed, were we to allow a proposal that permission in principle could be for any type of development if it were on a site in a qualifying document, we would be radically reforming the planning system.
The Minister says that that is in the interests of the plan-led system. However, staying with the Delegated Powers Committee, which is unconvinced by the Government’s arguments, I am unconvinced that it needs to be such a wide power. Indeed, it is such a wide power that the three statutory instruments that will follow to give additional flesh to the proposal are, in the case of the permission in principle provision, going to be by negative procedure. Therefore we will have no opportunity in this House to do very much other than confirm or reject. These powers are too wide and sweeping for a proposition that we ought to test on something for which there is an acknowledged need—for example, housing-led development. If my noble friend’s amendments are not quite right in their wording, I urge the Minister to recognise that there is genuine concern in this House about this proposal and to come back at Third Reading with amendments that would satisfy both the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and Peers around this House.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I am pleased to have the opportunity to open further discussion on the permission in principle measure today. I appreciate the time and effort that noble Lords have invested, in particular the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, in considering its detailed implications. I am grateful that they have shared their experience and expertise, which have proved extremely helpful in ensuring that permission in principle operates as effectively as possible.
In a moment, I will explain our government amendments to Clause 136 and why I believe they demonstrate that the Government have listened to the views expressed in Committee and have taken action accordingly to improve the functioning of this measure. However, given that we have some further amendments on it, I shall briefly remind noble Lords what the Government are seeking to achieve and why we believe it is a worthwhile measure that should remain part of the Bill.
We know that there is concern in the industry about the lack of up-front certainty in the current planning system. In Committee, I highlighted issues around the cost of submitting outline and full applications without confirmation of the acceptability of the principles between plan-making and planning application stage. All these have been raised with my department by the Planning Officers Society, the Home Builders Federation and the Federation of Master Builders, and I highlighted that even last summer’s Lyons review recommended an approach where the principle of development is established earlier. Permission in principle seeks to respond to these concerns by making the planning process more certain and more efficient. It will help provide a way for small builders to enter the market and for locally supported plan development to get under way faster.
I explained at length in Committee that local authorities and neighbourhood forums would be in the driving seat when it came to choosing to grant permission in principle. I gave strong confirmation that the approach taken to granting permission in principle would be in line with local policy and the National Planning Policy Framework.
I hope that these brief comments have given noble Lords an update on the value of the measure. Alongside some of the amendments that we are laying to provide greater certainty on the use of permission in principle, I hope that this is enough to persuade the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, to reconsider their opposition to the clause.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I can absolutely confirm that to the noble Lord.
Baroness Young of Old Scone
The supplementary information that we received from the Minister’s department indicated that it would be a negative-procedure statutory instrument, unless I am misreading what she sent to me.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Baroness Williams of Trafford(8 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I shall deal first with some of the latter remarks. Following December’s floods, it was clear that the rules that we thought applied did not apply, and that what we thought were blip events were becoming trend events. Therefore, there were lessons to be learned from both last year’s floods and the previous one-off-event floods. Following the December events, we established the National Flood Resilience Review, led by Oliver Letwin, to assess how the country could be better protected from future flooding and increasingly extreme weather events. This review will identify any gaps in our approach and pinpoint where our defences and modelling need strengthening, allowing us to take prompt action.
I understand the intention behind Amendments 119 and 120, but Amendment 119 seeks to place unnecessary provisions into the Bill, as national planning policy has already been strengthened to deliver sustainable drainage systems, and there would be problems with implementing the second proposal.
On Amendment 119, following enactment of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, proposals to implement the provisions under Section 32 and Schedule 3 were put out to public consultation. The response to that consultation gave rise to a number of issues. These included the potential impact on the delivery of new development under a system that required the approval of sustainable drainage systems under a consenting regime separate from that for approving planning applications. There were concerns that this could add undue delay to the consenting process and impact on the speed of planning decisions.
The coalition Government listened to that response and in the autumn of 2014 put forward for consultation a new proposal to make better use of the existing planning system to deliver sustainable drainage systems, otherwise known as SuDS. In the light of the response to that consultation and a subsequent government announcement in December 2014, national planning policy was strengthened with effect from April 2015. The strengthened policy makes clear the expectation that SuDS will be provided in all major new developments, such as developments of 10 dwellings or more, unless demonstrated to be inappropriate, and it ensures that clear arrangements are in place for ongoing maintenance over the lifetime of the development.
This strengthened policy applies alongside the existing policy expectation that SuDS will be given priority in new developments in flood-risk areas, as well as the drainage requirements of building regulations. Despite the strengthened planning policy, the amendment would require provisions for a new consenting regime for sustainable drainage systems to be brought into effect before important provisions in the Bill could come into force.
We need to give these new arrangements time to show that they can work effectively. We are meeting key stakeholders to gauge their views on how the changes are bedding in, and we will undertake similar reviews at intervals in the future. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, asked where the reviewing process had got to. As I said, we have taken the views of key stakeholders and we intend to have a more in-depth review in a year’s time, which will be two years post change.
Baroness Young of Old Scone
Can I prevail upon the noble Baroness to write to us indicating which stakeholders she has taken views from? The evidence that we appear to be getting from stakeholders is that it is not working.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I will certainly do that. We would also welcome suggestions from the Adaptation Sub-Committee based on its ongoing evidence gathering, as that would obviously help to build up a fuller picture.
Baroness Young of Old Scone
I am sorry to prolong the sitting but I should declare an interest as a former chief executive of the Environment Agency. The point of sustainable drainage systems is not necessarily about the location of development, which the sequential test that the Minister has just described attempts to deal with, but about the fact that increasingly with climate change we are seeing much heavier downpours of rain in rather random places that fill the drains up and flood no matter where you are. I have a house on top of a hill. Two Wednesdays ago a lake that had not been there for 50 years appeared as a result of torrential downpours of rain in Northamptonshire. It is that sort of situation we are looking for protection against in sustainable drainage systems. That can happen virtually anywhere. Were the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, in his place, he would testify to the fact that in the big flood of 2007, Sheffield did not flood as a result of the river but as a result of the drainage system. Protection against that is what we are looking for in the sustainable urban drainage package.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I completely take the noble Baroness’s point, but I reiterate our point that local planning authorities are expected to steer new development to areas at least risk of flooding. That is not to say that we will not have one-off events. Nowhere is safe from that sort of one-off event.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)
My Lords, I support Amendment 91 and the amendments down in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and I simply express the concern about the lack of clarity around the permission in principle process and the technical details stage. I had a very useful session with the policy and Bill team, and a brief one with the Minister about this, and I think that a considerable amount of greater clarity could be given for the benefit of the Committee about what issues will be taken into account at permission in principle stage and what issues will remain for the technical details stage, and what consultation will take place at both these stages.
I will briefly deal with the content of each stage and the consultation separately. I keep banging on about the need for a flow chart that demonstrates the steps in this process, and I hope that the Minister is going to provide us with that. Very strong assurances were given that the permission in principle could not go ahead if the site was not compliant with the NPPF. But I think that it would be of benefit to noble Lords if it could be spelled out in exquisite detail exactly what that would imply in terms of the sorts of issues that would be resolved at permission in principle stage, and assurance given that they would be also subject to full statutory consultation, including the statutory consultees, because that is the point at which both government agencies and others, and indeed the public, can be alerted to the possibility that a local authority will be granting permission in principle for a site.
At technical details stage, it is absolutely important—and I endorse what has been said by other noble Lords—that if we are going to be able to give developers the security that permission in principle needs to provide if it is not going to be a hollow process, we need to have resource to some of these hugely important details, which are contained in the NPPF. We need to be sure that local authorities are giving themselves sufficient assurance that things like flood risk, roads, contamination, nature conservation and other infrastructure issues are being dealt with adequately to give the local authority the security to assure developers that permission in principle can be granted. So the technical details stage genuinely becomes simply for the fine-tuning of the site, rather than trying to deal with some of these basic issues, at a point when permission in principle has already been granted on an adequate basis. That would also help with the current proposal that technical details would be subject only to discretionary consultation—that local authorities could decide how much and how far they wanted to consult on the technical details. If they genuinely are fine-tuning, I could just about live with discretionary consultation at that stage. But if they are at all going to deal with fundamental issues, which ought to have been dealt with at permission in principle stage, it would be important that full-scale consultation was required of local authorities at the technical detail stage, and not left for local discretion.
So I ask the Minister: before we reach Report stage, can we please have my flow chart? I think that that will reassure the Committee that permission in principle is not a hollow process, and that if permission in principle is granted by a local authority because a site is in the local plan, in the neighbourhood plan or in a brownfield register, it has also taken sufficient steps at the point of deciding that it is going to grant permission in principle to have taken account of all these hugely important issues at that stage and fully consulted on them.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
May I start on a cheery note and reassure the noble Baroness that I did send the flow chart out with the details of the regulations? I do know that some noble Lords on the Benches opposite did not seem to get it. It will go into the Printed Paper Office. I have some copies here and the noble Baroness can avail herself of one. I hope that she is content with that.
I must say to the noble Baroness that we have spent many hours discussing the process of PIP and, if I do not answer all of her questions, perhaps she could look through Hansard and get back to me. Some of what I am about to say may also give her reassurance.
When permission in principle is granted through locally prepared plans and registers, local authorities will choose which sites they grant it to as part of their existing plan-making and site-allocation work. This choice will therefore be a local one, reached through rigorous involvement of communities and members within the current plan-making process. For the application route for minor development, following the existing planning application process, local authorities will be required to determine applications for permission in principle in accordance with the development plan for the local area, unless material considerations indicate otherwise, after a period of consultation with the community and statutory bodies.
The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, asked me what “describe” meant. It means the setting out of expectations about what will be covered in a later application underpinned by evidence. That is my understanding of what “describe” means.
Amendment 94 would include in the Bill that information included on the planning register would be subject to consultation with local authorities. Under the current system, local planning authorities are already required to hold and maintain a planning register of all planning applications. The power in subsection (7) of new Section 59A, inserted into the Town and Country Planning Act by Clause 136, will merely require local authorities to add to the planning register information about permission in principle granted through locally made plans, registers and applications. The information to be placed on the register will be the same as they are currently required to publish or make available for standard planning applications.
On Amendments 95 and 95B, permission in principle will agree and establish the fundamental principle of development for location, uses and amount of housing development. Section 70(2ZZA), as introduced by the Government into the Town and Country Planning Act through this Bill, means that when the local authority determines an application for technical details consent, it cannot revisit the fundamental principles agreed by the permission in principle. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, pressed me again on what technical details might look like. They might look like matters relating to the design, affordable housing, inappropriate mitigation or, conversely, appropriate mitigation.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I think the idea is that we want to make the system as simple as possible, but I completely accept the fact that we do not want to leave it open to abuse. There are examples of that under right to buy, where properties might have been used as second homes. Of course, we hope that the second-home stamp duty should deter some people—noble Lords included—due to the quite substantial price now involved in buying a second home.
Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)
Could I just challenge something that the Minister said? The nub of this is a point that we are going to come on to debate later: the in-perpetuity issue. A lot of these potential misuses, both at point of purchase and at point of sale subsequently, could be resolved very simply if the Government were to relent and see these starter homes as being starter homes in perpetuity with a permanent discount. I was very unconvinced by the Minister’s argument that, otherwise, people in these starter homes would be unable to get on to the next rung of the ladder in the housing market. Do we really want to be persuading people to go up the housing market ladder in an inflated way? That is partly the problem with the housing stock at the moment: prices are inflated, and the steps between a small property and the next rung up the ladder are huge, particularly in areas of high housing cost such as London. What is the harm of them staying in the smaller property, if they have to, until such time as they can either achieve their aim with additional savings to buy into the next higher grade or get to the point at which they have a sufficient income level to be able do it? It seems to me that the system will struggle in the future with the sorts of abuses that the Minister is struggling with, because of the inability to control what happens after the first sale.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I take the noble Baroness’s point, but the Government’s wish is that people who want to move—and there are many reasons why people would want to move in the future—will be able to do so without being restricted by the same problems that they faced when buying before the starter home discount came in. Also, that mobility introduces a supply into the market. Noble Lords from all round the House have talked about the lack of supply and the lack of supply at a certain level. So it has a dual purpose, in allowing other people to come on to the market but also introducing supply when those people choose to move on.
I now move to non-government Amendments 43 and 44. Over the last 20 years, we have heard that the proportion of those under the age of 40 who are homeowners in England has declined by over a third, from 61% to 38%. There has been a 26 percentage point increase in the proportion of that age group who rent homes in the private sector, from 18% to 44%. Therefore, as one has declined, so the other has gone up. This is a problem faced by an entire generation. It would be wrong to say that some people cannot benefit from starter homes and buy a home in the location that works for them simply because they are currently living or working elsewhere. They could, for example, currently be priced out of the neighbourhood of their choice, or they could be relocating for work or other personal reasons. The effect of a local connections test on starter homes would be to restrict access for some people for no good reason. A starter home purchaser must commit to living in the property for five years and there will not be the opportunity to rent out the property, as we have already discussed. This must be a better test of commitment to an area.
It is also important that there is consistency, in order that our reforms and the commitment to deliver 200,000 starter homes are widely understood. This is particularly important for lenders and developers, and their support and engagement are critical to achieve delivery. Putting differential requirements in place as a matter of course, such as a local connection test, would introduce complexity that we do not want in getting housing delivery on the ground. However, my noble friend Lord Young brought up the point that a local connection may be warranted, and I recognise that. It has long been a common feature of rural exceptions sites, where opportunities for new housing supply are very limited. As part of our consultation on national planning policy, we sought views on whether local planning authorities should have the flexibility to introduce a local connection test for starter homes on rural exception sites. This would reflect the particular needs of some rural areas, where local connections are important and access to the housing market for working people can be extremely difficult. It would also be consistent with existing policy on rural exception sites. We are currently considering consultation responses on this point.