Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I want to press on the question of what is being trialled. The Minister mentioned feasibility, benefits and costs, but what about the environmental impacts of this trial? We are talking here about a global warming gas, and a very slippery gas because it is the smallest element—it escapes everywhere. Will the regulations contain measures to monitor the environmental impact of both the NO_x emissions in the home and the greenhouse gas impact of the hydrogen, which will leak when it is distributed that widely? Can that be included in the trial so we can also assess those disbenefits?

Finally, it is true that the only reason really that some houses might not qualify for a heat pump is if they are not very efficient. It is ironic that, for safety reasons, the leakier the house, the more likely it is to then be able to take hydrogen. This precious commodity, which is very expensive to produce and will be very inefficient, is being used in houses which are leaky and being made leakier to be made safer. It seems just so counter to everything we want to achieve on efficiency, resilience and climate change. I hope there will be a trial of the environmental impacts on air quality, climate change and energy efficiency, not just the benefits to the gas industry.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know the noble Baroness has strong views on electrification but let me reassure her that this is precisely the purpose of the trial. We need to use an existing network to find out what happens to hydrogen in an existing network. Clearly, environmental monitoring and checking for leaks and so on is a crucial part of it. It is one of the reasons we need to do it on an existing network in an existing community, to find out what happens outside of theoretical lab experiments where it is very easy to set up a trial with new pipework, new valves and new equipment. I have visited hydrogen demonstration houses up in Gateshead, my home area. It works very well but these are brand new properties, constructed with hydrogen appliances and new pipework. That is not a very good trial as to how it would work in the real world in existing communities. That is why we need to do the trial. The things that the noble Baroness asked about are exactly what we need to be checking and monitoring to judge the effectiveness of any hydrogen experiments in the real world.

I turn to Amendment 56, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. This amendment covers several aspects which I fully agree are important for the safe and effective delivery of the village trial. However, I assure noble Lords that the evidence that this amendment seeks to gather through a statutory consultation is already being gathered and will be reviewed by the department as part of our assessment process, following the submission of final proposals at the end of this month. As I said, in May 2022, we sent a joint letter with Ofgem to the gas networks setting out an extensive list of requirements that proposals for the trial should meet. This included requirements mentioned in the amendment, such as local support, costs, environmental impact and consumer protections, as well as many other important areas.

After the gas networks submit their proposals for the trial—later this week, as I said—the department will undertake a thorough assessment against the full list of requirements set out in the letter. That process will involve expert input from the various statutory bodies involved, including the Health and Safety Executive and Ofgem. We will publish the result of that assessment later this year, including the relevant evidence to explain our decision, and that will be available to all noble Lords. I reassure the House that we fully understand the importance of conducting the trial properly.

I touched on this earlier but the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised the point about local support for the trial. I reiterate that we will go ahead with a trial only in an area where there is strong local support. The gas networks are working closely with local authorities, communities and Members of Parliament as they develop their trial proposals. My officials also meet regularly with the relevant local authorities. Final proposals for the trial will need to contain evidence of strong support from the local community, validated by an independent external source, such as a local council. Again, I am happy to meet the local Members of Parliament.

The networks are extensively consulting local residents to develop an attractive consumer offer tailored to the community. They have opened drop-in centres in both Whitby and Redcar where anyone can engage directly with them and ask questions about what the project means for them, and have held a number of public events.

Safety is of course fundamental, which is the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. Before any community trial can go ahead, the Health and Safety Executive will need to be satisfied that the trial will be run safely. No trial will go ahead until all necessary safety assessments have been successfully carried out. I hope noble Lords will accept my reassurances on that.

If it goes ahead, the trial will start in 2025 and provide vital evidence that will be required to enable the Government to make decisions in 2026 on any potential future role for hydrogen in decarbonising heat. I hope noble Lords will accept that undertaking another formal consultation would duplicate the work that the department and the gas networks are already doing, and could delay important milestones for ultimately meeting net zero.

I agree that the trial must be conducted properly, and I have already spoken about the additional consumer protections that will be in place for the trial. Those protections, which must be met by the gas networks, also mean that the trial must be delivered with minimal disruption to consumers.

I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords that the department will carefully consider all these factors in coming to a decision on the trial. Importantly, we will be closely examining the evidence and outcomes of the gas networks’ engagement with local authorities and consumers in the trial areas. I hope that, with the reassurances that I have been able to provide, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I also pay tribute to all the work that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, has done. It is indeed a great mystery to all of us why she seemingly wishes to swap the lovely, warm, calm weather of southern England for California, but I suppose that will become clearer over time. I thank her for the contribution she has made, and I am sure that we will hear a lot more from her in the future.

I am happy to contribute to this debate on Amendment 40 and the issue of the carbon take-back obligation for fossil fuel extraction. The concept of such an obligation is indeed worthy of debate, but the noble Baroness will understand when I say that its inclusion in the Bill is a little premature. Our primary instrument to decarbonise the UK economy is the emissions trading scheme, which provides a market price for emissions of carbon dioxide, incentivising investment in decarbonisation and ensuring that it happens wherever—and however—it is most cost effective to do so.

Introducing a carbon take-back obligation now, at such a pivotal time for the development of CCUS in the UK, could create uncertainty for industry and have a detrimental delaying effect on investment, resulting in investors looking to opportunities that exist in many other countries—perhaps even in California; one never knows. Such an obligation could also increase the costs of CCUS, making UK production of steel, chemicals, refinery products and other industrial products more expensive than that of their competitors, potentially impacting on our industrial competitiveness. All these issues need further detailed policy consideration before further legislation can be considered.

As I mentioned to the noble Baroness before the debate, the CCUS Council is the Government’s primary forum for engaging with representatives across the CCUS sector, and we have indeed asked the council to consider and provide advice on carbon take-back obligations. The concept indeed warrants further consideration, but I am sure the noble Baroness will accept that it is not for this Bill at this time. With that explanation, I hope she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, to the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, for adding her name, to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for her support, and to the Minister for his comments. This is indeed my last outing before I depart after recess. I want to say thank you to everyone who has made me feel so welcome in the 12 years I have been here on and off, intermittently, on different Benches. It has been a privilege and I will genuinely miss it. When things are coming to an end, often you value them even more. Hopefully, I will be back—in the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

On the amendment, I am encouraged that this idea is being picked up by the CCUS Council. It seems that it will be difficult for the oil, gas and coal sector to come forward with this as a united voice, but it would definitely be good for it. It would give it clarity and certainty and enable it to take back control of its choices of projects or investments. It would be able to do it from the private sector, knowing that it is obliged to do it, and it would create a market mechanism through which it could operate, which I believe would reduce costs overall to the consumer and to industrial customers. Industry is very good at finding solutions: give it an obligation, get the engineers on it and it will find solutions. It will determine whether the price will come down or whether indeed it will be better for it to pivot fully into a cleaner system based on electricity and clean electricity rather than continuing to take things out of the ground and burn them.

I have some sympathy with the belief that it is probably high time we stopped burning things and moved on, especially as we—Great Britain, the United Kingdom—have grown rich on the back of the industrial revolution that seems to be dragging on. However, we now know that there are alternatives. There is a cleaner, cheaper, more efficient system available to us using electricity wherever it is possible, and where it cannot be used, deriving clean fuels from that electricity. That is the future. The chemical industry and the chemical-based energy system will decline because it will not be able to compete with that manufactured clean alternative. We have to manage that decline and it is incumbent on Governments to help manage it fairly and transition us out of it. This sort of policy would do that, and the industry should embrace it. I hope that the other place will debate it and that a campaign will emerge around it. I look forward to watching that from sunny California, and I wish your Lordships all the best of luck with the end of the Bill. Thank you. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Domestic Heat Pumps: Budget Underspend

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can answer my noble friend directly: we have done lots of research on these matters. I will give him a couple of examples of existing offers. British Gas has a starting price for an air source heat pump of £2,999 and Octopus Energy is offering one for £2,500 including the upgrade grant that we are offering. It obviously depends on the circumstances of the property. There are huge number of variable factors, such as how many radiators you need—whether your existing radiators can be reused will depend on their size. There are a lot of different factors to take into consideration, but his point is ultimately valid, in that we have to make sure that the prices of heat pumps come down over time. As consumers get more used to them and volumes go up, I think that they will.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I request a similarly detailed answer from the Minister on the costs of the hydrogen trials. As he will know, I do not support this way of moving forward. However, had we taken the same approach to heat pumps, ground source heat pumps in particular, how much would it have cost us per household for 2,000 homes? How much are we spending per household on the hydrogen trials?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As the noble Baroness is aware, we have two potential trial villages at the moment. We will make a decision later this year on which one will be selected, assuming that we get the powers to do so in the Energy Bill. We are still looking very closely at the costs of the trial. They are still to be determined, so I cannot give her an answer yet. The two gas networks are looking at the costs as we speak.

Heat and Buildings Strategy: Gas Boilers

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that the next Question is on the boiler upgrade scheme; his question might perhaps have been more appropriate there, but I agree with him. The Answer I gave earlier shows what we are doing to invest in upgrading existing skills. It is a long-term job over decades, as the MCS correctly said. I was at a reception with the MCS last week, talking to it about this very issue.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I agree with the Minister in his statement that there is a multiplicity of solutions for decarbonising heat. One very promising technology is the use of heat loops, or networked ground source heat pumps. These are much more efficient than even air source heat pumps and are an excellent technology that we should be trialling, perhaps instead of hydrogen.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Committee stage
Monday 16th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Yes, of course, mitigation avoidance will always come first. It is only as a last resort, if it cannot be avoided or mitigated, that compensation will be looked at as an alternative—only at the very last stage.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

Has the Minister considered whether, if the development is actually increasing biodiversity because of the no-take effect, it should get credits, and maybe money back?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That is a very interesting point from the noble Baroness, which we will take into account.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point. Before he corrected himself, I was about to contradict him and say that a number of energy-from-waste plants are already supplying district heating networks—as he said, there is a particularly big one in south London, which I have visited. It is doing so, because the Government supported it. It received grant money to enable it to do that. There are a number of others around the country, so we already have existing powers and support funds to support heat networks.

We are very supportive of energy-from-waste plants using the waste heat to connect into district heating networks. However, it is a difficult area, because it depends on a number of factors. You have to have the energy-from-waste plant in the first place, and office blocks, apartments, et cetera have to be available to take the waste heat. The noble Lord will know that later in the Bill we will discuss the zoning power for heat networks that local authorities will have, which hopefully will enable them to utilise those powers and take heat networks forward; there are a number that are very keen to do so. I would certainly envisage that a number of energy-from-waste plants—those in inner cities, in particular—will be able to take part in those initiatives.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his response. I am somewhat reassured by the timetable that these regulations will be pursued against. I would like to mention that it is not unusual for government to announce things and for there to then be quite a long delay. Energy-efficiency standards reaching EPC C by 2035 was first announced in 2017, but we still have not seen that make it through. If we had, we would be in a far better position now as we face this winter, where we have shortages of gas, and we should have more efficient homes. There is a reason why we are pressing on this timescale.

I support the Government’s amendments as introduced and the Minister’s statement that it is not helpful to expand this particular scheme at the moment any further than it is already defined. It is important to have clarity. The nearest corollary to this legislation is the ZEV mandate, which we will probably discuss in relation to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. It is better to have clarity of purpose that gives manufacturers and industry time to adapt and build an industry. It is clear in my mind that electrification of heat is probably 90% of the answer, if not the full answer. Therefore, getting it right, keeping it tight and giving confidence for investment would be the fastest way for us to get off volatile, expensive and unhealthy fossil fuels. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I will start with Amendments 125 to 127; I thank the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for their contributions and for promoting them. The amendments relate to Clause 109, which, alongside Clause 108, will ensure the safe and effective delivery of a village-scale hydrogen heating trial. This trial will gather evidence to enable the Government to make strategic decisions on the role of hydrogen in heat decarbonisation. I know that there are very strongly held opinions on whether hydrogen is the correct solution, but we will never know unless we do the appropriate research and trials.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

No.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There is already a small-scale trial in Fife in Scotland. There are two shortlisted villages, Redcar and Whitby—on the west coast, not Whitby on the east coast. They have been shortlisted for the trial and we will make a decision on the basis of submissions from both communities in the new year.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I respond on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on the stand part notice that we have both signed. I thank the Minister for his response. To be honest, because I am so clear that this should not form part of the Bill, I have not gone through all the detailed provisions in these two clauses. The Minister seems to be saying that there is an absolute right of refusal, but my reading of both clauses is that the emphasis is that required information must be provided. There might be protections from financial penalties—that is implied when it talks about protecting consumers—but I cannot see it written down anywhere that the regulations will enshrine the consumers’ right of refusal.

I would be grateful if the Minister would undertake to write to us on this because this seems like a scheme where the fox is being put in charge of the henhouse. The gas transporters are the interlocuters between the poor people living in these villages who are going to be told that this is the great answer to their climate change concerns. Will they provide adequate information about safety? You are at least four times more likely to have an accident with hydrogen; it has been verified.

I take issue with the Minister’s characterisation of this as being a matter of opinion where “some people think this” and “some people think that”. It is not true. This is clear physics and chemistry. It is more likely. You may get slightly more frequent accidents at a lower explosion rate, but that does not reassure me in the slightest. Peer-reviewed scientific studies have taken place and we do not live isolated from the rest of the world. Other countries have tried this. There have been countless trials and there have even been studies in this country. This is not a safe way of proceeding. It needs to be made categorically clear that independent advice should be given to these villages, not advice given by the gas transporters which, of course, have a huge, vested interest in this going ahead.

I am afraid that I am in no way assured by the responses I have received. I certainly would not want to be living in one of these villages. I would not want hydrogen anywhere near my home. I will continue to advocate on that basis. I will not press my objection to this clause at this stage, but I am sure that we will return to this on Report. This is going to get—and needs—a lot more scrutiny. A lot more independence needs putting into the process, and it needs a rethink.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Let me just respond to the noble Baroness’s point and reiterate once again that nobody will be forced to take part in these trials. There is extensive information available. As I said, there are campaigns in some communities which want to take part in the trials. At least one MP in one of the areas is campaigning for it, and both council leaders have been contacted by officials and are supportive of it. Obviously, people want reassurance and more information; that will happen.

The noble Baroness’s other point about health and safety is crucial. I actually agree with her that, potentially, hydrogen is dangerous. Natural gas is also potentially dangerous, but we have mitigated the safety concerns of that. We will want to make sure that the HSE is involved in studies as well, and we will not do anything to put anybody at risk or do anything that will prejudice their safety. That goes without saying, and there are extensive studies taking place.

I also have some scepticism about the potential use of hydrogen for home heating, but I believe that we should do the trials to assure ourselves one way or the other where the truth lies, and whether the existing network can be repurposed easily, simply and cheaply for hydrogen. We do not actually know the answers to those questions until we do the studies, and that involves doing a trial to find that out.

With those reassurances, once again, let me reassure noble Lords that nobody will be forced to take part in these trials. Everybody will be provided with the appropriate information, and nobody will suffer any financial loss because of it, but I believe that it is worth pushing ahead with these trials.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

Would the Minister point to where in the Bill it states that there is a right to refusal and consumers can object? It should be stated up front in the legislation so that the regulations are clear.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am giving the noble Baroness that assurance now, and it will be in the regulations. I am happy to put it in writing, if she wishes. It is not in the Bill, because that is not the place for secondary regulations. The Bill provides the principles and the powers for the Secretary of State. Of course, when we make the regulations, there will be further potential for that to be discussed both in this House and in the House of Commons, and I am sure that it will be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has her very passionate views, but there are lots of alternative views out there as well. We are saying that it needs to be properly looked at and studied on the basis of evidence—I know that the Greens are sometimes not big on evidence, but we believe that policy should be properly evidenced and studied. That is why we think that it is important that we should do these trials.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

With a Bill of this magnitude, if we are saying that it is a principle that there is a right to refuse, that principle should be in the primary legislation. That is where you put principles—and then the details can be worked out. Nothing in the Bill says that consumers have the right to refuse. I am sure that we are going to revisit this, as it is fundamentally important that principles are enshrined in primary legislation.

Energy Prices Bill

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

2nd reading
Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That goes back to the point I made in my introduction. There are many different circumstances facing different providers. Some of them have pointed out quite loudly that they have sold their power in long-term contracts, et cetera, so it varies from provider to provider. However, the noble Lord gives me the opportunity to say that the precise mechanics of the temporary cost-plus revenue limit will of course be subject to a full consultation, which we will launch shortly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, raised important issues on who should bear the cost of the measures. The energy profits levy on oil and gas and the cost-plus revenue limit that have been announced for low-carbon generators will help to fund these schemes. The scale of the crisis means that the sums involved are beyond those two mechanisms so higher borrowing will be necessary to pay for this temporary support, and it is right that we use all the available tools to support businesses through this crisis and to spread the costs over time.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, the noble Baroness, Lady Young—

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt when the Minister is trying to finish, but on a point of clarification, with the profits levy, up to 85% of that tax can be defrayed by the Government investing in North Sea oil and gas, keeping us hooked on a volatile and unpredictable source of fossil fuels, whereas this cost-plus recovery has no provision for generators to invest in cleaner power. Why is there not equal treatment?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There are separate provisions allowing generators to invest in clean power. The aforementioned contracts for difference scheme is doing exactly that, providing the incentive for them to invest in clean power. We have increased the number of CfD rounds that we have launched. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, this has proved to be an immensely successful scheme. I pay tribute to the officials who designed it. It has been so successful that most of the rest of Europe is proposing to adopt a very similar scheme for their own wind generation. It is precisely because that mechanism exists and provides guaranteed revenue for their investments that those incentives that the noble Baroness refers to already exist.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, all raised important points regarding the default tariff cap. The energy price guarantee will now determine the prices that households pay for their energy. However, we are retaining the price cap to help deliver this energy price guarantee. Clause 20 will ensure that Ofgem continues to calculate the cap level to determine what it costs an efficient energy supplier to provide a household with gas and/or electricity. Of course, this will not determine the prices that householders pay, but it will enable the Government to identify what level of support is needed to deliver the prices in this energy price guarantee. The price cap is a mechanism that has been proven to prevent excessive charging and to reflect the real costs of supplying energy. Retaining it will ensure that suppliers price in line with the energy price guarantee and that public funds are used efficiently.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, gave his view that the Bill treats renewables less favourably than oil and gas. No energy firms, however they produce, should be profiting unduly from Russia’s war in Ukraine, whether they generate low-carbon or fossil-fuel energy. Current price levels in electricity markets are far higher than any energy firm could possibly have envisaged or forecast, or would have predicted they would need, to continue investing in renewables.

Low-carbon electricity generation from renewables and nuclear will be key to securing more low-cost homegrown energy, which is why we continue to support investments in the sector. I remind noble Lords of the point I have made continuously: the schemes have been extremely successful. We have the highest proportion of offshore wind energy in Europe, by far. We have the second-highest proportion in the world, and we have extremely ambitious plans to continue investing and producing more of it, precisely because the scheme has proven so successful and is delivering much cheaper power. It is our flagship scheme and it has worked a treat, as I said—so successfully that other countries are now adopting it. In 2023, the scheme will move to annual auctions, helping to further accelerate the deployment of clean low-cost generation, which is something that I know all contributors will welcome.

The energy price guarantee and the energy bill relief scheme support millions of householders and businesses with rising energy costs. The Chancellor made clear that they will continue to do so from now until next April. Looking beyond that, I am sure noble Lords would be interested to know that the Prime Minister and Chancellor have agreed that it would be irresponsible for the Government to continue exposing the public finances to unlimited volatility of international gas prices. Therefore, it is the Government’s intention that, after this winter, support is better focused on the most vulnerable households and those least able to pay, with greater incentives to improve energy efficiency.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, raised issues on the essential importance of encouraging solar energy use in households. I completely agree with the noble Lord. We are committed to solar power, which not only is good for the environment but at the moment represents the cheapest way to generate electricity in the UK, albeit intermittently. The British Energy Security Strategy sets out an expectation of 70 gigawatts installed solar capacity in the UK by 2035. To achieve that and meet this increased ambition, we will need a significant increase in both ground-mounted and rooftop solar in the 2020s and beyond. The noble Lord will be pleased to know that there is a healthy pipeline of ground-mounted projects, currently amounting to around 19 gigawatts across Great Britain, which either are in scoping or have already submitted planning applications.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, asked me yesterday and again today about our negotiations with Norway.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

When my noble friend says “tankers”, I take it she means LNG tankers. I forget the exact figure, but we get 45% from our own domestic capacity and about 3% to 4% through interconnectors, so I guess the rest will be made up from LNG shipments. We have three LNG gasification terminals in the UK. Those figures are off the top of my head; I will correct them if they are not right.

Turning to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foster, I am sure he expects the reply that he is going to get. As he will be well aware, changes to tax policy are considered as part of the Budget process. As Treasury officials are always very keen to tell me whenever I put forward such proposals, they have lots of proposals from people for exemptions from various taxes but not many proposals for how to make up the revenue that would be lost from them. I am sure that the Chancellor will want to take that fully into consideration in the context of the Government’s wider fiscal position. I fully take on board the points that the noble Lord made. The Government keep all taxes under review and always, the Treasury tells me, welcome representations to help inform future decisions on tax policy.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

In case there are any Treasury officials listening or, indeed, reading Hansard, I suggest that one form of new tax would be on the trading of fossil fuel commodities. This is a huge source of revenue to the suppliers of fossil fuels into the market, and the commodity trading markets is a very good place to look for taxation revenue.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her suggestion. The Treasury is not normally shy in coming forward with proposals for extra taxes if it thinks it can get away with it. Of course, we have already imposed the excess profits levy on a number of producers in the UK; indeed, those producers already pay increased rates of corporation tax. We must be careful that we do not disincentivise investment. Putting aside the wider politics of it, which we all understand, I am sure that everybody is aware that we need tens of billions of pounds of investment into existing oil and gas facilities. I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for the continued production of UK gas; it is an important transition fuel and I hope he will manage to convince some of his Liberal Democrat colleagues to support us in this. We do need gas in the short term, but many of those same companies are investing many billions of pounds also in offshore wind and other renewable energy infrastructure, so we want to be careful not to disincentive them too much from that. I am sure the Treasury will want to take into account all these helpful considerations as to how it can increase its tax base.

In conclusion, I am grateful to noble Lords for their amendments on these topics. I hope I have been able to provide at least some reassurance to some people on their amendments and that they will therefore feel able not to press them.

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[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I am grateful for the Minister’s response. I have no doubt that hydrogen will have a role to play, but it is more likely to go into fertiliser production or long-distance fuels for shipping and aviation. The provisions being taken here do not allow for it to be applied to the sectors that consume fossil fuels—gas obviously covers fertilised gas. This needs to be thought through in relation to where hydrogen will most likely be needed. It will play a tiny role in decarbonising electricity, if at all, because there are so many other ways of doing it more cheaply and more efficiently.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I understand the point made by the noble Baroness. I have also seen the models of where it is most likely that hydrogen would be used, and I have considerable sympathy for many of the points that she made. As to the where it will be used, it will clearly be in industrial processes and heavy-goods transportation. These would be more likely uses than home heating or decarbonisation, but it would possibly play a role. Nevertheless, as I said, I have taken note of what has been said in the Committee and understand the points that have been made. If the noble Baroness allows me, I will take them away to look at, and possibly revisit them at Report.

Amendment 56 seeks to impose restrictions on when the hydrogen levy can be introduced to fund the hydrogen business model. This will help to unlock potentially billions of pounds worth of investment in hydrogen that we need across the UK. The Government are committed to ensuring that long-term funding is provided through the hydrogen business model, and the provisions in the Bill do not require the Government to introduce the levy by a particular date. We do not expect the levy to be introduced any time before 2025, and so we do not expect it to have any impact on consumer bills before then, at the earliest. Decisions regarding when to introduce the levy will take into account wider government policies and priorities, including considerations related to energy bill affordability, which is always at the forefront of our considerations.

The first set of regulations under Clause 66, establishing the levy, will also be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, so we would fully expect Parliament to exercise its role, and particularly your Lordships’ House to scrutinise how the Government intend to exercise those powers.

Amendment 56 would, in my view, introduce restrictions that are unnecessary, given the Government’s approach to decisions related to when to introduce the levy and the parliamentary scrutiny requirements that would be associated with any relevant secondary legislation.

Amendment 57 seeks to protect consumers by introducing a requirement for the Secretary of State to publish a specific consumer impact report before making regulations under Clause 66, establishing a hydrogen levy. As I mentioned, the parliamentary procedure for the first set of regulations that establish the levy will help ensure that the levy receives sufficient scrutiny from Parliament. Crucially, I can tell the Committee that it is already the Government’s intention to publish an impact assessment alongside the draft regulations made under Clause 66. I hope noble Lords will recognise that the amendment is unnecessary and feel able to not press their amendments.

North Sea Gas

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, the facility was closed in 2017 for commercial reasons, and that was not a decision for BEIS or Ministers at the time. The Government understand that Centrica is seeking all the necessary regulatory approvals to reopen the facility. The decisions to grant any and all approvals are of course taken by independent safety regulators; health and safety is their top priority.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, we are in the process of discussing an Energy Bill. I am sure the Government are correct when they say they take energy security very seriously. However, we are 85% dependent on gas for heating our homes and we in Britain have some of the leakiest homes. Just because we produce 45% does not mean we will actually be able to afford to buy it, so we need more intervention. In the Bill, there is a power to intervene in the market to secure core fuels. However, that applies only to oil products: petrol and diesel. Is it time to consider gas as a core fuel?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Gas is clearly a very important fuel. As I said, our sources of supply are diverse. We have 45% from our own North Sea production; we have secure supplies from Norway; we have 20% of the entire EU capacity of LNG storage regasification facilities. So we are well served, but we are not complacent about these matters. We keep a very close eye on what is a fast-evolving situation and take energy security as our top priority.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Committee stage
Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Yes, it is a complicated area that requires proper and detailed policy analysis, but that work is under way, and we will do so.

Splitting the wholesale market would a necessitate a fundamental and irreversible design of our electricity market arrangements, and without the appropriate consideration of the potential costs and any potential benefits and without sufficient stakeholder input, it could well lead to higher bills for consumers, and it would create an investment hiatus which would jeopardise our ambitions for decarbonising the power sector by 2035—which is exactly the point I was making to my noble friend. So, this is an important issue, but it is one that needs to be looked at thoroughly, properly and professionally. I hope that my noble friend is assured that the issue is being closely examined and will therefore feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, would the Minister care to comment on the fact that—and this has been mooted as a potential solution in the short term during these unprecedented times where we see such high prices and so many people suffering—there is surely a logic to take a power now, to use it in extremis and then to continue with the longer-term conversation? I think the nation wants to see some action quite quickly and we have an Energy Bill.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not think it is important to do that at this stage; we have published the consultation, we are closely analysing responses, as the noble Baroness will understand. It is a difficult area, it is a complicated area, there are a number of potential ramifications, and we think it is worthy of consideration. If we took a power now, that might have a very destabilising effect on the market and on the amount of investment that is flowing into many of the sectors, so the Government’s position at the moment is that we do not think that is necessary or desirable.

I reassure noble Lords that the addition of electrification to the Energy Bill is also unnecessary. The net-zero strategy sets out the Government’s view on how electrification can enable cost-effective decarbonisation in transport, in heating and in industry—to that extent, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and the points that she made—along with our approach to deliver reliable, affordable and low-carbon power. The energy security strategy accelerated, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, our ambitions for the deployment of renewables for nuclear and for hydrogen. I can assure noble Lords that the Government will never compromise our security of supply: that remains our primary consideration. But our understanding of what the future energy system will look like and the level of the demand that we will need to meet through electrification will essentially and inevitably evolve over time. So, we are not targeting a particular solution, but we rely on competition to spur investment in the different technologies and new ways of working, and new technologies such as more efficient batteries et cetera are coming onstream every day. We will closely take all these matters under consideration. We take the view that the Government’s role is to ensure the market framework is there and that encourages effective competition and, at the same time, delivers a secure and reliable system.

Finally, let me thank the noble Lords, Lord Howell and Lord Teverson, the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Hayman, for their valuable contributions to the debate. I assure my noble friend Lord Howell that we are working internationally with the US, with the EU and with our other partners to produce a secure and reliable energy system together. In response to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, I am sure he will be pleased to hear that through the £385 million advanced nuclear funds, we are providing funding to support research and development for precisely the small modular reactor designs that the noble Viscount wishes to see, and we are progressing plans to build an advanced modular reactor demonstration by the early 2030s at the latest. Therefore, with the reassurances that I have been able to provide, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

I have a point of clarification. Are the definitions different because regulation over transportation is not needed or is the Minister saying, “We have picked a winner. It is going to be storage through this mechanism and we are not interested in the innovation that is coming through in these other sources of permanent storage.”? If it is the latter, I would find that very hard to understand in a Bill that is seeking to support new technologies.

I think it is the case—the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, mentioned it—that there is a company in the UK already doing this, with limited support from government. It can scale. It is not a silver bullet by any means but there is not a single operational carbon capture and storage facility in the UK apart from that one, and yet the Bill does not seem interested in supporting it. I would like to understand: if the Government is interested in supporting new technologies, can we make that as broad as possible?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Bill is intended to establish an economic means of support for geological formation. Of course, I commend the company referred to by the noble Baroness, which is managing to find ways of—I hope—permanently storing carbon dioxide in a form other than geological formation; indeed, there are other potential support mechanisms that could be deployed towards that. There is lots of research and development funding through UKRI and there is a whole range of other advanced technologies that we are supporting. In this case, in relation to economic regulation, the market mechanism that we want to set up on CCUS is dedicated principally towards geological long-term storage; we think that is the area that needs support under this system. That would provide the vast majority of storage that we can envisage at the moment but, of course, we are always willing to consider other methods. If this company is proving to be a success, that is great and I would be very happy to look at alternative ways of supporting it.

Winter Heating Initiatives

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Thursday 7th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government will continue to look at ways to work with energy companies to make homes more comfortable and cheaper to run. To help consumers with rising bills, we are doubling the value of the universal energy bill support scheme to £400 and scrapping the requirement to repay it over five years. Our simple energy advice service provides home owners with advice on decarbonising their homes; we plan to move the service to GOV.UK to improve the user experience.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I fear that this Government are somewhat distracted and about to expend considerable effort on picking an unproven loser; I am of course referring to the Energy Bill that was published yesterday and its heavy weighting towards carbon capture and storage and hydrogen. These are expensive and inefficient solutions, and thus will play only a minor role in the transition to a secure, affordable and clean energy system. Energy efficiency and electrifying everything are the clear winners, yet they get scarcely a mention in the 300-plus pages of the Bill. Can the Minister explain what is being done to get energy companies behind delivering these two proven solutions at a pace that will help home owners this winter?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Well, we could spend the whole of this Question Time debating those issues. The noble Baroness makes some good points. I am sure that we will have some extensive discussions on those issues during the passage of the Energy Bill. On energy efficiency, I agree with her, of course. It is no secret that I have been working with energy suppliers to try to put in place additional energy-efficiency measures. We will continue to take those forward.

International Energy Agency Report

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

However, the noble Lord knows well my support for insulation measures. Insulation—energy that we do not use—is the most efficient form of energy. We are rolling out a considerable number of measures. He will aware that, under ECO4, we are introducing support of up to £1 billion a year, as well as the social housing decarbonisation fund, the local authority delivery fund, the home upgrade grant, et cetera—all of which are rolling out insulation measures for the poorest members of our community.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, we are fortunate in the UK that our dependence on Russia for energy has been diminished thanks to successive policies to support renewable electricity, but is the Minister aware that just less than one in five litres of diesel comes directly from Russia? What plans does the noble Lord’s ministry have to speed the transition from diesel to electric vehicles, which will save drivers money, increase our energy independence and clean our air?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are seeking to end imports of Russian oil by the end of this year. We already have one of the fastest transition periods to electric vehicles in the western world; we will ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2030. We are already rolling out more efficient vehicles, although we should be aware of the cost of these to many families at the moment.