Education Bill

Debate between Baroness Whitaker and Lord McAvoy

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Whitaker]

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, but in the interests of time I shall speak only to the amendment in my name, Amendment 116A. This gives Ofsted an additional task, to inspect the effectiveness of education as influenced by the buildings and design of the school. I do not expect that this is what the Government really want, but I would urge them to take the opportunity of this amendment to embed the importance of properly designed school buildings in the assessment of the education they provide.

I shall not repeat what I said on the earlier group of amendments, but I think that it is all the more important in view of the Minister’s response on design standards. I briefly draw attention to the recently published Space for Personalised Learning report commissioned by the previous Government. In changing their approach to school building, I implore the present Government not to throw the baby out with the bath water and ignore this treasure trove of expertise. Learning is changing, and so is our understanding of it. Even if we return to chronological history and Latin, both of which I rather like, our children need to be at home with and, indeed, masters of, the modern world and its changes. They need to earn a living in that world, and they need to be able to contribute to UK growth and culture and their own self-fulfilment. The essential message of the report is that buildings and the designed space matter very much for effective learning, inclusive learning, safe and secure learning and enthusiastic and creative learning. If our inspectorate does not pay attention to this aspect of education and further it where it can, we shall all lose out.

[Lord McAvoy]

I rise very briefly, just for a few minutes, to speak on Amendment 116. When the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, was moving the amendment, I felt I reached a new understanding with her, seeing as we have previously disagreed. I was even starting to think that I had a soul mate—I will withdraw the word “soul” in case that offends her. She said so much in the first part of her speech, but I will deal with that secondly. She rather spoilt it in the second part of her speech by homing in on faith schools. Although she made it clear, as usual, that she was not talking about Church of England schools, I had a bit of bother trying to fathom out which particular faith school she was on about. I am sure I will figure it out at some point. It would be totally invidious if separate criteria applied to faith schools, and I am afraid it shows deep paranoia and suspicion about Catholic schools that I just do not get.

Being positive and concentrating on the first half of her speech, it was brilliant in trying to get across how much all schools can contribute to community cohesion. I see schools I am most aware of—outside England’s jurisdiction, but nevertheless, I have knowledge of schools in England as well—and all schools getting involved in fair trade and fund raising for Africa and going out to Africa as part of various voluntary organisations. There are parent-teacher organisations that dig deep into the community because they get the parents involved. All of this goes back to the school and feeds back to the community. If there is any discrimination or any lack of importance given by the Government to community cohesion, the noble Baroness has highlighted that that is a weakness. Where it is going well, it is going very well. I also notice a bit of local rivalry which helps because if one school sees that another school has raised £2,000 or £3,000 for aid to Africa, that is its target. That is friendly rivalry, not contentious rivalry. Anything that brings back into consideration by the Government the contribution of all schools to community cohesion, the sooner the better.

Education Bill

Debate between Baroness Whitaker and Lord McAvoy

Monday 18th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Whitaker]

My Lords, I think that my noble friend Lord Griffiths, who is temporarily sitting on the other side, is very disarming but I disagree with him about the relevance of these amendments. I am sure that many people in this Room and outside share the view that a moral and spiritual dimension to school life is essential. I personally think that it is essential for school students to join in a morally and spiritually uplifting act every day. The problem is that, if it is a Christian act, quite a lot of children are not Christian and some are not of that particular sect of Christianity. Those children are deprived. When I went to school, the children who were withdrawn sat outside, as has been said, and I do not think that that is what school is about.

Of course, I have absolutely no objection to children learning about Christianity. It is one of our glorious traditions which I do not happen to share but, like my noble friend, I am very glad to have known the King James Bible and, for that matter, the Bible of Tyndale. I would have no objection at all to my children experiencing a Christian religious ceremony or a collective act referring to the Christian approach. What I really think we should move away from, for all the reasons which have been given and which I shall not repeat, is a sectarian approach to morality and spirituality. We really cannot allow our children in this wide, diverse world to think that only one way to truth is the right way, that only one morality is right and that only one spirituality has any validity. Therefore, I am extremely happy to support the spirit behind all these amendments.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I think I should try to sit in a different seat in future, because every time I sit here I seem to be last or near-enough last in the batting order in trying to speak. Last Wednesday, there was trouble and the Government Whip intervened and effectively stopped me from speaking—despite the fact that I was unaware of how to work these things. Fifteen speakers were in favour of that type of amendment. I was against it and was frozen out. I do not know how we find a way of trying to balance things. I should also like to speak. I am not going to declare an interest, because I take exception to folk expecting me to declare my religion before I speak on an issue. If you consider my Sundays, you might get a clue.

The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, rhymed off a lot of substantial figures that seemed to prove that religion in schools was dying, that all sorts of statistics showed that folk did not bother and that we were heading for an atheist or a non-believing society. If that is the case, why is there enthusiasm for coming forward with amendments such as this that seem to flog a dead horse? I do not understand, if Christianity and religious belief are dying on their feet anyway, why we are trying to bury them.

At the risk of being controversial, what we have here is aggressive secularism. This is not a contribution to a debate based on tolerance. I agree with my noble friend Lord Peston that tolerance should surely be at the heart of any discussion such as this. I would never dream of stopping someone else from practising their religion or proselytising, as the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, said. People are people and will do their own thing.

I can tell noble Lords that there is confusion and wonder among many in faith communities who have chosen to go to and use these schools. My noble friend Lady Whitaker was definite about the situation that she would choose for her children. That is absolutely fine, but the people who send their children to faith schools for collective worship and gatherings are surely entitled to have their point of view. There is a feeling that I am picking up—

[Baroness Whitaker]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but since he mentioned my name, I should say that I do not think that any of these amendments would prevent parents from choosing a religious school that would have a religious act of collective worship.

[Lord McAvoy]

That is technically true, but it forces them to accept assumptions—I shall not be provocative and say that they are based on hostility—that are certainly not sympathetic towards school gatherings based on Christian beliefs. This should surely be about tolerance. If people want to change the way that things are, surely they should go about convincing people of that. I really do not understand, because no one in this Room has a mandate to talk about removing the basis of collective worship within schools. I should certainly like to see a politician standing for election along the corridor try to advocate some of the beliefs and authoritarian elements in these proposals.

I appeal to colleagues: if you want to change things, try to persuade; do not dictate or try to lay down such conditions from on high. Whether colleagues like it or not those are the unforeseen consequences. I agree with my noble friend Lord Touhig that it is not the intention of noble Lords to be hostile to faith schools on the basis of collective worship.

I shall say another couple of quick sentences in a mood of co-operation. My noble friend Lady Massey said that schools are places of learning only. Among a whole host of things, I accept that. However, the religion that I belong to—the Roman Catholic faith—believes in the trinity: home, school and church. We do not believe that schools are there for learning only.